PST (Performance Suspension Technology) - Lifetime Warranty?

[HurstGN]

Recently, I had the displeasure of having several parts on the front end of my car go bad. These were PST (Performance Suspension Technology) parts that were purchased for several reasons. 1) The reputation of the company and the parts were backed by a lifetime warranty. 2) I wanted the additional performance from my suspension.

Well, the parts go bad, and I call PST to inquire as to how to get replacements under the warranty. I was told in no uncertain terms that the "Lifetime Warranty" only covers manufacturer defects, and due to the age of my parts (8 years old) the parts are just plain worn out. I'm more than welcome to call their 800 number and order more parts, but these won't be covered under a warranty. WHAT?!?!? Why in the hell would I buy more of these parts if I can get TRW parts that DO carry a real lifetime warranty? As you can imagine, I'm rather upset that I spent 3 times the cost of regular parts, just to find the warranty is a scam, and PST goes to great lengths to publicly advertise "lifetime warranty" and they go to the same great lengths to NOT advertise "against manufacturer defects only".

Just a word of advice if anyone here is contemplating buying PST pieces...the warranty ISN'T what they advertise.

[96roadmaster]

Thank you for the heads up. I was actually contemplating which company to go with when my dad's 95 Caddy Fleetwood needs its front end rebuilt. I had a complete Moog front end installed on my Roadmaster and it's simply great. Handles a bit better than stock too.

Did you have any squeaking problems with the PST parts? I believe they use polygraphite bushings.

[HurstGN]

Nope. Never had the squeaking some people get with poly bushings.

[Matt Harwood]

A lot of folks make the mistake of believing that polyurethane bushings are more durable than OEM rubber. In fact, the opposite is true. They may be stiffer and less prone to deflection but when they fail, as you've learned, they fail completely. They may work today, but they may also crack and fail tomorrow--there's just no way of knowing, even by looking at them. Unlike rubber, which simply wears out and becomes less pliable, polyurethane breaks or shatters and must be replaced. I have used polyurethane bushings in race cars where the suspension was rebuilt at least annually, and I still managed to break sway bar mounts frequently. I tried poly bushings on my street car and was less than pleased with the NVH and took them off before they could fail. I used polyurethane engine mounts in my V8 Ranger pickup truck because I was concerned that the engine would torque over and the headers would touch the steering shaft. After less than 1000 miles (granted, it was 450 horsepower, but still...), the mounts failed. I installed OEM rubber mounts and never had another problem (in fact, the new owner of the truck is running low 12-second quarter mile times on those same mounts).

As for the warranty, YIKES ! That really stinks, and borders on criminal. Sorry you got burned. Use the rubber replacement parts and you'll be much happier, especially since the difference in performance isn't all that great (and unless you're going 10/10ths around a corner, it's irrelevant).

Thanks for the heads-up!

[96roadmaster]

I still say go the Moog way. They are not polyurethane or polygraphite. In fact, I don't know what they use. Good ol' rubber? But it greatly improved how the car plants the front wheels in turns now, and is almost neutral when whipping it around a corner. This is the same car that used to understeer heavily since the front wheels would not be able to get a full contact patch at high g's. About 20k miles later of spirited driving (to put it mildy), it's ben holding up great.

You may want to ask how others' experiences have been with Moog on the GN boards. I know the Roadmaster/Impala/Caprice/Fleetwood guys love the Moogs.

[Guest my3buicks]

Dan, if you havn't already, you may want to post this over on the V8Buick site also - nothing wrong with totally blowing this companies Buick market out of the water.

[NTX5467]

I'd be willing to bet that most "Lifetime Warranty" documents will not cover "wear" or similar degrading of product from time/age. If the product breaks due to a poor casting or similar, that's a "manufacturer's defect" and is warrantiable as such.

There are some areas in the vehicle's body and mounting areas that need to have some flex in them, by design. Taking the flex out at those points will just transfer the flex forces somewhere else and that area will start to fail as it was not designed to flex.

To me, the poly items should only be in areas that are more "accuracy" related rather than NVH areas. Places like sway bar link bolts and possibly upper control arm shafts. When the rubber starts aging and such, it "settles" and then starts cracking out (from age and ozone and such), still not failing in the same mode as the polyurethane items.

With respect to rubber, I suspect that what you might find in the aftermarket will be a firmer durometer reading than what the factory used in production. For example, when the '77 Z/28 debuted, it has several different items from the normal Camaros. One was stiffer rear spring bushings/shackle bushings. These were verified in the parts books in those years.

I ordered some in and was surprised at just how much stiffer the rubber was (couldn't collapse it like the spongy non-Z/28 items. I ordered them by the sets for some drag racing friends to better keep the rear springs "controlled". About 10 years later, I got an order for them again, but this time there was only one part number, so I ordered it. It was the same harder rubber as the earlier Z/28 only part. Both bushings (soft and firmer) had the same casting number too, but a different paint daub color. I could not determine if I'd gotten the soft or hard version, so a call to GM operatives (who pulled the prints for verification) informed me that the paint daub was the defining detail, not the casting number.

Also, when going back in the Pontiac parts database and trying to find "Radial Tuned Suspension" items, there were none (by the 1990s), only one part number of suspension bushing. Obviously, the firmer bushings superceded the softer ones.

Way before the poly bushings were available, it was mentioned that front suspension bushing deflection could be lessened by deftly drilling holes for a small finishing nail (basically the head is just a hair larger than the body of the nail) and then pushing the nail into the bushing, with it fully inside the bushing and not sticking out. This would work for upper and lower control arm bushings, but not "thru-bolt" bushings like sway bar link bolt grommets.

Every magazine article where they use the poly replacement items lauds the increased handling precision and such. Never a real mention of impact harshness or coarse road surface road noise, typically. Yet, with the old suspension as the "benchmark", anything would be an improvement.

As I mentioned, there are places where flex is designed to be and places it should not be transfered to--unless as Matt mentioned it's a 10/10th situation or a full race vehicle that's going to be inspected for metal fatigue reasonably regularly.

Regarding warranties, I did discover that KONI will warranty their products "for wear", but "not the rubber bushes". Of course, with the higher price of the shocks, it might be expected to be that way. All it takes is purchase documentation and paying the freight both ways. In another situation, when I pulled them off to adjust them, one locked up. That one resulted in the set being replaced "free". Be sure to put that orig purchase invoice somewhere safe (where the vermits can't make a nest out of it, for example).

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[HurstGN]

Points taken. I just recall the "good old days" when companies like Raybestos and some others thought they made the best brake pads in the world, and lifetime warranteed them. I've replaced a few for free under that warranty. Then came the day when the warranty became "single replacement lifetime warranty" where they would replace the pads once under the warranty. Once the single replacement was used up, the pads were no longer covered for wear, and if they wear out, you pay for new ones. The latest I'd found on that front is now "single replacement lifetime warranty if installed by the dealer/representative" otherwise no warranty of any kind. This means I've got to let some stooge at Pep Boys drive and work on my car to get the warranty?!? I told the guy at their customer counter my car was worth way more then $70 and I'd be doing the work myself. Funny thing was he looked out at my GN sitting there in the lot and said you're right...I wouldn't let them touch my car if I drove one of those. I guess he knew his employees a little too well.

I've noticed that cars and their parts seem to be designed NOT to last anymore compared to the old school thinking of designed to last a lifetime. I know they can make better quality products, but the business side of things and getting more return sales seems to have had great impact on quality. A sad thing to have had to happen.

As far as posting on the V8 board, feel free to copy it over there Keith. I don't have a V8, nor an ID on the board...hence no posting over there for me.

[Guest John Chapman]

"The good ole days" seldom were when we think about it objectively...

I can't argue the quality issue, and a number of other points are valid as well. I suspect however, that the limitations on lifetime warranty is a direct result of the increasing longevity/quality of the average car. Folks are routinely keeping cars five or more years and driving them well past 100K before trading. I think if you'll look at the 'lifetime' warranty, most of them were for the owner when the parts were installed.

I did get a completely new Rhino liner on a lifetime warranty. Lifetime was six years in this case. Dealer cringed when I showed up with the receipt. Pack ratting pays!

Cheers,

JMC