Technician Pay Versus Value

[Guest]

Referring to windshield washer jug issue.

As some may know, I am a Mazda Master technician at a multi-branded dealership which inlcudes Pontiac. I believe our shop rate is $72.00 per hour. I get paid $17.00 per flat rate hour which averages out to about $15.00 per hour over a period of time.

It just so happens that $15.40 is the national "average" wage of all earners. I couldn't make a living as a tech full time (because basically it's a commission job) so I work part time here and part time at a home mortgage company.

My irritation is with the comments that technicians "create" work to "rip you off". I can honestly say that I try to save my customers money and usually undersell the time necessary to make a solid repair. Also, the amount to repair is in direct proportion to the age and condition of the vehicle. For instance, if the intake manifold gasket is leaking and causing rough running (and a check engine light) on a 2003 vehicle (assume not under warranty) then I may be able to reuse some hardware and the ease of repair will lower the cost. On the other hand, a 10 year old car with the same concern - I need to request gaskets and hardware plus extra time for fasteners that break, etc.

Technicians or mechanics are hyped in the press on a regular basis as a good career choice. Forget it, not true. It's a decent living but we have to deal with longer & longer warranty periods and manufacturers don't pay squat to repair their cars. Customers freak out when they are quoted a $72.00 per hour shop rate BUT I can fix a Mazda problem faster then the local shadetree guy who charges $63.00 per flat rate hour. And I am using OEM parts and know the cars I am working on.

Just the other day my dealer had to buy a "road force" wheel balancer that applies a pressure to a tire/wheel to more accurately detect an out of balance condition. Cost? $15,000. Most diagnostic scan tools cost $8,000 to $10,000. Overhead and parts inventories are expensive. Factory training for me means a drive to Kansas City with a hotel, food, and gas. These are all components of the shop hour charge.

Look, I am not saying all dealerships are crooks or saints. But just like the varied comments on CARS, Inc (some good, most bad) everything is relative. If you go into a dealership in a negative mood and do not develop a positive relationship with an advisor, then it's never going to be right, is it?

Thanks

Bryan Moran

BCA 28571

Mazda master technician

1961 Buick Electra

[Budd]

Excellent post Brian, thank you for sharing. It is always a welcome thing to see folks post intelligent counterpoints to the "hot topic of the day"... I for one like the education provided, versus just a bunch of grousing.

Cheers,

Budd

[Bucent98]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My irritation is with the comments that technicians "create" work to "rip you off". I can honestly say that I try to save my customers money and usually undersell the time necessary to make a solid repair.</div></div>

Hi Bryan. Some good points there. And it sounds like we could use more honest mechanics like yourself. I've had a lot of work done through the years, some great, some bad, some worse. And I've learned a lot through time and still some people are going to be taken advantage of unless they know something about mechanics, or know the shop/dealer, it's work history and like you said here,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If you go into a dealership in a negative mood and do not develop a positive relationship with an advisor, then it's never going to be right, is it? </div></div>

Attitude is a good point and mine hasn't always been the best and I think some mechanics/techs pick up on that. So some may or may not try to sell you something extra. Even the mechs/techs may deliberately break or damage something. It's happened to me several times. Not all are dishonest, but you need to do your homework and try to protect yourself if you can. Not always easy though. One can call the BBB or even get a recommendation from a friend, etc. Kevin

[rocketraider]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"road force" wheel balancer that applies a pressure to a tire/wheel to more accurately detect an out of balance condition. </div></div>

Bryan- is that anything like an old on-car spin balancer like John Bean or Bear made?

[Guest]

Glenn,

The Road Force balancer is an enhanced wheel spin balancer. It is aided by a computer program. This issue is in response to the ever increasing size of rims that vehicles are using combined with more sophisticated tire manufacturing techniques. Cadillac and Lexus were having vibration concerns that could not be corrected using a traditional spin balancing system. Even when the tire was moved on the rim to try to create a balanced tire. they wouldput the wheels back on, go down the road and still find a vibration (felt through the steering wheel) at certain speeds.

The engineers finally decided that the cause was still in the tire balance and that sping balancing - which spins a wheel/tire at fairly high speeds - was not fully balancing these larger tires. The road force balancer takes more specific measurements (inputs) of the rim size, tire size and weight of the entire assembly then brings an asphalt covered rotating wheel up the tire/wheel and applies a "road force" measured resistance against the tire. It spins at about half the speed of the old spin balancer. When completed, it tells the operator if it is best to deflate and adjust the tire on the rim, reinflate and then put weights on. In so doing, manufacturers have been able to remove vibration form the cars.

High performance cars using 17 to 19 inch rims are becoming more & more problematic from a service standpoint. ALL new platforms introduced from 2005 on are required to have low tire pressure monitors in each wheel. These are controlled by a processor inside the cabin.

When there is a blowout or a routine tire swap for worn out tires, these sensors will be subject to damage. Along with the expense of these larger tires, the need to road force balance in some cases, and the low pressure warning, tire service could get expensive in the future.

Bryan

[NTX5467]

Just as in the past, if the shop tools are purchased through the GM Shop Equipment program, there can be some financing considerations and possibly rebates too. GM does have specs as to what they recommend be purchased too.

Possibly the best way to relate "road force variation" might be to remember in the prior times, there would be tires that would bubble balance perfectly and still have vibrations at highway speeds (even with tire/wheel runout in specs). Back then, it was attributed to "hard spots" in the casing or marginally well done overlaps of the cords in the casings. Usually, those tires went on the rear wheels, if possible.

With no large and heavy rear differential back there any more (except on the genuine truck chassis vehicles, not counting the IRS Ford SUVs), every wheel needs to be in perfect static and rolling balance. If there is a "hard spot" in the casing, it will cause the vibration perceived to be imbalance. With no "classic" differential in the rear to help dampen those vibrations, putting those tires on the rear is not an option as it was in the past.

GM has specs for road force variation for cars and also for truck chassis vehicles. If the tire/wheel combination "at best" is still out of spec, then with GM covering the tires as a regular part of their vehicle warranty, a new tire is ordered up through the correct GM supply channels. I don't know that modern customers are any more critical of wheel balance issues, but with the greater number of allegedly smooth Interstate highways and increasing vehicle costs, it can be more of an issue.

When the tire is placed on the balancer, the balancer spins the tire against a rolling surface that obviously has some force measuring device internal to it. It does this for a few revolutions to make sure everything is fully seated on the rim. Then it spins the tire/wheel for balance. At the end of its program, it displays the road force and balance results on the touch screen. Just like the earlier computer balancers, it also displays where the problem areas are so the tire can be moved on the wheel and then rechecked. If the tire/wheel combination can't be made to be in spec for road force, then a new tire is ordered.

The other concern is that tires usually are wider than in the past and also of a somewhat larger diameter. Basically, more weight at the outer area of things, which might also make balancing by earlier methods less effective.

At one point in time, there were some issues with the OEM tires on Escalades not holding balance. It was finally determined that this was caused by the tire moving on the chrome wheel as the vehicle drove down the road. Usually took about 10 miles of freeway driving for this to happen (after passing all road force and balance specs). No real fix, but when the Michelin LTXs were installed on the same wheels, the beads seated with a more solid "thunk" than the OEM tires and that ended the problem. It, like other service issues, seemed to be in a cycle of sorts. Luckily, the Texas Highway Department had just laid some new smooooth asphalt on the adjacent Interstate so it made for a good test stretch of road.

It's interesting that we have had a couple of cycles where we replaced one brand of tire on one particular model. Then those problems seemed to go away. Before anyone gets too excited about talking about changing to Michelins, we warrantied several sets of Symmetrys on DeVilles too, so they are not immune either.

In the earlier times too, the on-the-car spin balancers were the premium way to do high speed tire balance. I remember the old Stewart-Warner Alemite strobe balancers being used for that sort of thing (including on the highway partrol cars). It is still a more comprehensive way of doing things, but also required redoing when that wheel was moved to another place on the vehicle or was remounted without marking its relative position on the wheel hub. There was also another variation that Hunter built where you clamped a hub on the wheel and moved weights internally as the wheel spun (replicating those placements with wheel weights later).

With the greater concern of shop safety -- plus no one really knowing how to operate the high speed spin balancers any more -- and the increased intervals for tire rotation, this type of balancing has pretty much vanished. I also suspect that manufacturing tolerances for the balance of axles, brake rotors, brake drums, etc. have also increased as the technology of electronic scales has increased also.

In those earlier times, you gauged a tire's quality by the amount of weight that had to be used to balance it. Sure was nice to see those old Atlas Plycrons balance with not even 1/2 ounce on each wheel!

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

The tire companies have (or had at one time) CERTIFIED tires available to the manufacturers. IF the CERETIFIED tires would not correct alleged tire problems then the problem was NOT in the original tires. The spin and computer balancing has ALWAYS been nothing but pure non-sense especialy in the case of most privately owned repair shops due to operator derelection. I will admit that i have not had the opportunity to balance any of the modern low profile tires over 16 inches but i am confident my COMMERICAL Coats BUBBLE balancer ( i own 2wo of them) will out perform or match the best of the best operators with the best of the best modern balancers under ANY expected tire performance includeing high speed professional racing wheels and tires operating 200mph+.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

crazy4abby wrote:

"As some may know, I am a Mazda Master technician at a multi-branded dealership which inlcudes Pontiac. I believe our shop rate is $72.00 per hour. I get paid $17.00 per flat rate hour which averages out to about $15.00 per hour over a period of time."

i did not realize that Master mechanics are to this day only getting $17/hr of the flat rate. Your work and experience is worth at least $25/hr if not MORE!!! If u r only getting 17/hr than that means the old man is keeping 49/hr.

The average delaership probably has at least 10 full time mechanics. The profit he makes from the parts u can install in 1 hour probably pays your wage. (dont anyone try to start any of that 3% profit margin crap either). So, 10 mechanics at $72/hr = $720/hr X 2000 hrs/yr = 1.4 million/yr. Based on early 70's costs i'm guessing the average dealer pays about $1500/day (400K/yr ) just to open his doors at 2004 costs. So his net profit from service alone is about a million dollars peryear and that does not count SALES.

6 years ago i was offered a local hick town GM truck dealership for 1.2 million LOCK STOCK and barrel.

HEY!!!!!!!! have u ever heard of something called a UNION ????!!!!! (oh dear, not the 'U' word).

[Guest]

When the dealer moved from downtown to the burbs 15 years ago he said no Union or he would hire all new techs and they went along with it.

Each town has different market rates. i am about 1 - 2 dollars a flat rate hour below what I should be. I have heard in Las Vegas techs are making more.

[Reatta Man]

PackardV8,

Do you REALLY, seriously think a bubble balancer will outperform a modern balancer for speeds up to 200MPH???? That is, at best, incredible to believe that, and at worst, tragic and dangerous.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

200 mph is not some accomplished speed that you kids just recently achieved in the last 10 years. Speeds at Leman, Sebring, et-al were exceding 200 mph (on streight aways) back in early to mid 60's. (I am talking CAN-Am and formula racing here and NOT that silly redneck slowpoke NASCAR racing). Duntov ran 212 with CERV I and CERV II sometime about 1962-63. SO, what are u trying to tell me???? That they used a computer to balance wheels in the 1960's and 70's????? In the pits many pro racers had bubble balancers and probably still do.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

While we're here maybe Crazy4Abby can enlighten us a little bit on how the service managers can "write up time" or spread the flat rate charges over private pay work-orders. Maybe a few other 'tricks of the trade' that i've forgotten about too. Of course, crazy4Abby and myself NEVER actualy saw any of this happen but realize it does exist.

[NTX5467]

Packard makes some realistic points. All many of our computerized service tools of modern times are doing the same things that used to be done "analog" in earlier times. That includes wheel balancing and wheel alignment, to name a few.

The current batch of computerized wheel balancers can do a much more accurate job than in prior times, though. But, if the tire does not have any problems, a well-finessed bubble balance can work just a well now as it did in the 1960s. I also suspect that one reason the high speed spin balancers went away, other than operator issues, might well have been liability issues as we all know what those little pebbles in the tire tread will do when the wheel spins fast enough.

What these computerized machines do is allow the jobs to be done much more efficiently and productively. Not to mention have a higher degree of accuracy that ANY operator should be able to achieve. Many of us used to spend lots of time waiting for the tires to be rotated and bubble balanced at the old service stations. Life usually moves as a faster pace now and customers still demand excellence in a shorter time frame.

As for technician pay, that depends on the area of the country. From what I've seen of late, the tech pay mentioned is pretty much "median". Sure, we'd all like to make more money for the same work (or less!), but the technician unions are NOT the silver bullet many let on like they are and do tend to change the techs' playing field of sorts.

There are also many types of labor rate plans too, which any dealership might use to make money with. How that is matrixed is up to those at the particular dealership.

As for the gap between charged labor rates and tech pay, that "cushion" goes to fund LOTS of things in the service department. The SPX Special Tool Program is one thing that is more expensive than many lay people might suspect, for example, and you HAVE to have some of those tools for particular vehicles yet there are many that will seldom be used.

Then there's the other shop equipment, utility bills, insurance, shop vehicles, pushers, battery jumpers, freon recovery machines, AND the support people that keep the service drive running. The service dept usually has one of the higher gross profits in the dealership, but it can also loose money if expenses get out of whack.

As for maintenance schedules? You start with two--the GM "normal" and the GM "severe use" schedules. Many people unknowingly are much more toward the "severe use" than they might suspect, if you read the definitions in the maintenance schedule.

Then, the dealership can offer their own recommended maintenance schedule. This is where it can get a little "gray area". Some of the maintenance intervals might be closer together than what the "normal" GM recommendations might be plus include other things not in the GM literature. Key thing is to know enough about your vehicle and such to be able to pick and choose from these dealer recommendations. Sure, it's extra profits but there can also be some market-based recommendations that are better to heed in the long run.

As for dealership techs "over-selling" repairs. It's a little different world in the dealership than in a private shop, sometimes. From my orientation, I would expect the dealership techs to be more trained than those in a private shop, but that's not always the case, plus know more about the vehicle they are repairing (if it's a new enough vehicle for the current GM Training courses to cover). In short, if there's a problem that no one else can fix, the dealership techs OUGHT to be able to get it done, especially with the direct links to GM Tech Assistance and Engineering they have via phone, Internet, etc. Private shops and dealerships alike have access to ALLDATA, but that's just the tip of the iceberg of sorts.

In that "closest thing to the factory" orientation (for parts and service), then I'd hold the dealership people to a higher standard than I might a private shop--not that some private shops might be worthy of that too. For example, if you brought a vehicle in and a tech noted something getting ready to fail, he might note in on the repair order and the owner would be asked if they wanted to get it repaired. As it hadn't failed yet, the owner would probably decline the repair. Or the tech could see it getting ready to happen, but knowing it still had a little life left, he might not mention it. Either way, the customer leaves and goes about their life.

If the failure happens next week, the vehicle might well end up near a private shop. In the course of the conversation, the private shop's tech and the customer touch on the fact that the vehicle was in a dealership just last week. So, the private shop tech might well comment that "They should have seen that coming and said something about it". If nothing was mentioned at the dealership, then the customer can think better of the private shop for seeing the impending failure, but if it was mentioned at the dealership (if the customer admits to knowing it was) and that was noted in the later conversation, then the private shop tech knows that he's not the "savior" and that his best defense is doing a good job at a reasonable price--or at least cheaper than it might have been at the dealership.

So, when and if a dealership tech presents a customer with a laundry list of suggested repairs, it might be better to request an explanation instead of just writing it off as "overselling" or whatever. It IS always the customer's decision to approve or decline repairs at ANY repair shop--but at some point in time, something's going to break and if you're already at a repair facility you trust, it might be cheaper and easier to get it done then instead of paying a tow bill later (in some cases, depending on what the failure was).

As for "How long U-joints are supposed to last?" . . . I would hope that U-joints might last longer than what they did on your vehicle, but there can be other factors involved too. But the KEY THING is to not wait until you're ready to pay the repair bill to start trying to bargain the price down--the price you've ALREADY approved. This is where a known and steady customer can have an advantage over someone that is not known to the dealership people. Besides, when that factory warranty ends, it ends. Some "special adjustments" might be made, but that's solely up to the dealership operatives (who know how many other times they've seen similar failures) who would also know what service bulletins that GM has put out on what kinds of issues. Of course, any requests for "help on the price" should be made in a polite and non-confrontational manner.

Packard, I think I'd found the money and bought that little dealership! Lots of possibilities, plus with all of the neat stuff GM's going to have on the ground in the near future, you could have some fun and make some money too, plus indulge your older car orientations too.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Guest]

Don't know of any tricks of the trade. Our Service Director is a 20 year employee who is probably within 10 years of retirement with an owner who is loyal and likes to stay out of the way. The Service Director in other words is simply trying to slide into retirement. He probably gets paid well and gets a demo. He is not aggresive like a younger "lion" type service manager and I have seen them too. They are more hands on. This is a laid back dealership which gets it's modus operandi from the owner who believes that "he who dies with the most toys wins". The owner isn't thinking about passing on the dealership to his kids. He recently purchased a 1.2 million dollar plane on the company dime. He travels alot, has the attention span of a 2 year old. The dealership would really have to tank for him to give a hoot about profit margins, etc. And basically with Pontiac, Mazda, Subaru and Porsche, - all exclusive in this market - a dealership is still a license to print money, isn't it?

Bryan

crazy4abby

1961 Buick Electra 2 door hardtop

[Guest imported_moopar2ya2]

I always try to talk to the mechanic. I know several mechanics who are frustrated by the service manger telling the customer he needs X when the mechanic was very proud of diagnosing the real problem that would have saved the customer a lot of $. Somtimes it seems the service managers are just high pressure salesmen. They sure can play dumb. Like pretending they never heard of the tech service bulletin that has been out on your vehicle for 2 years, etc.

[Reatta Man]

PackardV8,

Since I am 48 (and can see 49 just a few weeks away) normally I would be flattered when someone refers to me as a 'kid'. However, the cynicism dripping off the page of your message tells me your comments were not intended to be flattering.

I would appreciate a little less of a personal retaliatory tone when you respond to me or other posters. We can agree to disagree at times, agree at others, or just not post at all. But talking 'down' to someone because you disagree will poison the well for everyone.

As for balancing tires in the 1950's or 1960s, yes, I know it was done without a Pentium computer, and yes, I know that land speed records are nothing new. But it was more likely accomplished with a tire mounted on a lathe and spun at high speed and then shaved until all visible imperfections were gone. The wheel was also probably machine-balanced and lathed before the tire was installed. As I said before, I doubt if any driver would want to move at 200+ MPH on tires balanced on a bubble balancing machine.

Furtheremore, this isn't new to the motorheads of the world, either. We have been doing it in the Air Force with 500-pound B-52 tires since the mid-1950s on an aircraft with a gross (maximum) take-off weight of 488,000 pounds, which normally attains V-2 (wheels off the ground) velocity at around 180-220 MPH, depending on ambient temperature and humidity. See the photos at

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=40703666 or see the history of the B-52 at http://www.af.mil/history/decade.asp?dec=1950

Cheers,

Joe