322 Piston question. Again.

[brad54]

This might be a duplicate--I thought I posted this last night, but it isn't showing up on the board!

So, here it goes (again).

On the 322s, they changed the combustion chamber in the heads, which required changing the piston dome, sometime in '55 and carried it through '56.

How does the '53 322 fit into the 322 family? Will pistons and heads from a '53 322 interchange with a '54 and early '55 322?

Also, heads will interchange between the 264 and early 322s, correct?

My big question is this: Can you take a '56 322 block, fill it with '53 322 pistons and cap it with '54 264 heads? (have the block, have the 264, and located a set of '53 pistons. Wondering if I can find a big enough blender to make them work together!)

Thanks,

-Brad

[Judd]

Brad54

I think you'll be OK, the wear in the cylinders and pistons would be my main concern.

Do you have casting numbers on the 55 heads with big chambers and were they machined by Buick or cast big? There is some information on the Yahoo nailhead list that Buick machined early heads ( cast # 1166349 or 1165549)for 56 motors and use new # 1168930 and 1169349 on 56 only. You have any input on this? Where did you get your info on the 55/56 heads and pistons? I question if the late 55 motors with the oil fill in the valve covers and the pressed piston pins are not 56 motors built in 55 production run ??? You're piston head info seems to confirm this ?? Do the late 55 heads have the big 56 exhaust valve and is the late 55 cam the longer duration cast 56 unit???

Judd

[brad54]

Wow...Don't know any of that!

The info I've gotten is from Hollanders Interchange manuals, and I remember reading about the change on this website a long time ago.

I wasn't aware of the differnces in exhaust valve diameter in '56, or the longer duration cam.

Here's what I've got:

I have a fairly low-mileage '54 264 out of my Special. The rings are tired, and I'll just assume the bores could stand to be cleaned up. I've got a pair of '56 322s--one needs a total rebuild (one bore filled with water and the piston is seized), the other seems to have had a rebuild before it sat--bores and piston tops pretty clean, break-in lube still on the cam and lifters. But I'm tearing it down anyway and I'm going to rebuild it. That engine is complete, but I didn't see the typical overbore stamp on any of the piston domes. I'll check taper in the bore and check the pistons before deciding if I'll go with them or get replacements.

That leaves me with one '56 block that needs to be bored, no pistons, and a 264ci door stop.

Then I found a set of '53 322 pistons that are .040-over. Might be able to build a second 322 fairly cheaply. And then have a 322ci door stop I guess.

I'm going to have the cam reground--the '56 came with a longer duration? What other specs for the 322 do you have? What was the lift, duration, etc.

Thanks very much for the help

-Brad

[Judd]

Brad

My info from Buick doesn't give lift/duration it just says the 56 cam is different. 56 exhaust opens 3 deg. earlier and closes 2 deg. later, intake opens 2 deg earlier and closes 3 deg. later. The 56 cam is cast and you need to keep 56 lifters cam dist gear together and not mixed with 53 to 55. I was told the push rods are different length also but this didn't come from Buick and I haven't compared them yet. 56 exhaust valves are tulip shaped with concave head not flat like 53/55 ( do late 55's have this valve???). 322 syncromesh cars have different cams than Dynaflow cars but I don't know the exact difference. Four barrel 322's are higher compression than 2 barrel motors and 56 motors have higher compression and more valve clearanse than their 53/55 counterparts.

[brad54]

Cool. Thanks.

The valves on my 322 heads are concave. I supposed if I really went after it I could degree the cam and find all the specs.

I've read somewhere that the '56 lifters are of a more modern design, so I'd go with those. Don't know about the pushrod length, but I'm going to blueprint them and order a custom set. That doesn't cost much.

It seems to me that the concave valves wouldn't be a great design, especially on the exhaust. They'd lower compression. A book I have says the 2bbl were 8.9:1, while the 4bbl was 9.5:1, and both of mine were 2bbls. Depending on what the CC of the combustion chambers is, I'll find out what the CR is with the pistons I eventaully get and get the CR up to 9.5:1. The concave exhaust valve would also hurt exhaust flow I would think--it'd trap some of the spent charge under the "bowl" of the valve face. This is pure conjecture on my part, and I'll talk to some guys I know to get their opinion.

I'll be pretty happy if I can crack 300hp with this engine. With carbs, head work, 1.6 rockers, ignition, compression and zero gap rings I should be at least close!

Thanks for the info on the cams. Where are you finding that stuff?

-Brad

[Judd]

Brad

My info is from the 56 shop manual and service bullitens. Buick claims the tulip shaped 56 valve is lighter and flows better? I have a good running spare 56 322 from my parts car and an Isky cam with complete valve train I hope to rebuild and use in my car in the next year or two, maybe 3 dueces and .040 over roadmaster pistons. I'm in the middle of paint and body work right now so money is short for motor work especialy when the original motor is fine.

[brad54]

I've got a '54 shop manual, and haven't sprung for the '56 yet but I will.

I've thought about getting the service bullitens but never really thought I'd have too much need for it. Guess I do!

Thanks again for the info.-

-Brad

[Judd]

Brad

The service bullitens are a great source of info. Where is Jefferson? I'm just north west of Mobile, you get to Cruisin the Coast?

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

Judd is certainly right about the Service Bulletins.(Plus most else he ever comments on.) And also the school manuals. The school manuals tend to relate to the differences in the cars from one year to the previous year which makes them real good for helping with interchange questions. The Body by Fisher Service Manual gets down and describes things such as dismanteling the dash or describes windshield wiper motors and transmissions etc which I have yet to find in the Shop Manual. I have a set of original Service Bulletins (loose leaf) as they came to the shops through the year that actually have more info than the end of year bound copies. You're welcome to take and copy if you'd like. You can pick these up this week end. BTW, it's lookin like rain Sunday. Can't take the babes out in that stuff. What about Saturday afternoon. We can go crusin for awhile and come back and watch the auction. Or are you scheduled to go shopping for pillow ruffles.

[brad54]

I got roped into going to GMMG on Saturday--they build the wicked LS6 Camaros that came out this year--aluminum 427 engines, limited production, etc.

It's cool, but still "work" because I'll be on the clock with camera in hand. It's an hour away or so, I'll be there for a couple hours and then back.

I'd love to copy those sheets! You're right about the wiper transmissions, too! I replaced them on my Buick, and fortunately one was NOS in the box--it came with a little instructional sheet. Didn't find it in Shop Manual, Chiltons, Motors, or my '55 and '56 Chevy manuals! Did just happen to spot it in my '57 Chevy manual a few weeks ago, though. I've also got a '57 Chevy assembly manual, and you're right--it's pretty handy too. I used it a lot on my station wagon.

If not Sunday, how 'bout next weekend?

-Brad

[Mrbuick714]

Each year,the combustion chambers were changed on the 322 engine. The 53's were definitely all by themselves.The 56 had valve recesses in the pistons for the larger 56 valves, (see 56 Product School Manual) If you dont mix them,you wont have a problem.Ralph

[old-tank]

Some observations from my own wrench-turnin? and research:

On the 55 engines I have had apart the intake valves are all tulip shaped and the original exhaust valves valves are flat on top. Some of the replacement exhaust valves after long ago valve jobs are tulip shaped. Seats and valves from the later (364/401) nailheads can be installed; ask your machinist.

In 1993 I bought a cam for the 322 in my CVT from (a now defunct company) NW Buick Performance owned by Dave Johnson (this name gets mentioned occasionally on other Buick boards). His part number was CS 2114 and I finally found the specs: lift=0.454 int. and ex; duration= 260 int. and ex.; cl=114; power range=1000-5300; max rpm= 6000. I did no other mods to the engine, still single exhaust and stock lifters, and the original pistons were used. With the stock 3.36 rear gears it was a slug in low speed driving, but really starts pulling hard after 3000 rpm. I replaced the rear gears with 3.60 and now the low speed throttle response is similar to stock and it starts cookin' sooner at WOT. The cam was a reground '56 core, the 322 is the early '55 with the bolted piston pin, the cranking compression after cleanup decking and head milling is 170, which is about stock.

I suspect that the low compression (120) on another of my 55's 322 is due to recession on the intake valve seats from wear and excessive grinding ( the machine shop that replaced the exhaust seats as an after thought told me that the intake valve seats were 'marginal') Marginal is an understatement, they are recessed about 1/8 to 3/16 in judging from the amount of difference of stem height above the keepers, comparing the new exhaust valves and the old intakes. My feeling is this makes the chamber volume larger and lowers the compression. Replace all the seats or use some nearly new heads. By the way notice those beautiful machined combustion chambers on the 322 heads!

Willie