Full-size stick shift

[Guest]

I remember reading in my '71 Buick Brochure that either the Centurion or the Lesabre was available with a three speed manual transmission. Has anyone ever seen one of these cars with a manual. I would think it strange to see an early 70's full-size car with a stick shift.<BR> I was under my Riviera the other day and I noticed that their is an impression in the firewall where the stick shift rods would go through. I assume these cars share a firewall, so they must have made some.<P>Tomsriv<BR>71 Riv

[Centurion]

Tomsriv,<P>I believe that the manual transmission would be extremely rare on these cars, and I understand the automatic became standard on the Centurion during the course of the model year.<P>I have heard, however, of a black '71 Centurion convertible that was delivered with the three-speed stick, so it appears that some cars were actually built that way.

[Guest Shaffer]

I think 3-speed manual was standard on the 71 LeSabres, but it would be VERY rare. That brings some info I will post here. I am a member of a stationwagon group and we was talking about rarity of full-size luxury cars of the 60s. What brought up this discussion was a link to for a 1967 Ford LTD Country Squire 10-passenger wagon, (Fords top of the line luxury wagon for 1967) loaded with every option available, including the 428 V-8. It had all power options. What was odd is that the car was equipped with a factory 4-speed manual transmission and bucket seats. The car was special ordered that way. Ford brochure for 1967 stated NO 4-speeds on the wagons. Ford dealership said NO to the special order as well. I will post a link to the car and the story. Someone also had mentioned that their father had a 1966 Chevrolet Caprice Estate wagon (Chevrolets top of the line luxury wagon for 1966) and he said it was a factory 396 V8 car with a factory 3-speed manual on the column and was a/c equipped. Someone also had mentioned they knew of a 1966 Caprice 4-door hardtop sedan with a 3-speed manual on the column. This was supposed to be Chevrolets luxury car for 1966. I would guess that 99.999% of the 1966 Caprices was automatic. However, a Chevrolet fan said the books state that a 3-speed manual was standard on every Chevrolet in 1966. I think that by 1967 the Caprice only had automatic. OK, here is the oddest story. Someone said years ago, they knew someone who had a late 60s Buick Electra with a FACTORY 3-SPEED manual on the column. There was some disagreement on the subject, as someone said that they thought 1958 was the last year for manual on the top of the line Buick, which would mean no manual trans in Electras since 1959 was the 1st year. I asked the person if they remembered what year it was, as I have never heard of a manual shift Electra. He said around the late 60s. He said he remembered how odd it was. The story was that the man special ordered that way. I think he said at first Buick refused, but later did so. He said the man wanted the 3-speed manual to get better fuel mileage. Sounds strange for a lot of reasons. Seems like the gear ratio would make the engine run faster. Also, why buy a luxury car to save fuel? However, I know a old lady who owns a store out the highway buys nothing but a brand new Buick every 2 years and NEVER, NEVER uses the a/c, because she said it uses more fuel. SHE EVEN OWNS A GAS STATION. At least she buys the smallest Buick, a Century Custom sedan. <BR>Someone on there said they used to own a base, plain, 1967 LeSabre 2-door hardtop with a 3-speed manual, rare too I think, as I have never seen one. And I have NEVER heard of a manual shift Electra until that one listed. Possible I guess, however, I would still have to see it to believe it. <P>Here is the link to where the 1967 Ford Country Squire wagon is - photos of car there as well. <BR>Go to: <A HREF="http://www.fordregistry.com/1967_RN_1120.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.fordregistry.com/1967_RN_1120.htm</A> <BR>There is also the story behind it. It is #1 of only 1 produced. The dealer finally gave the man the name and address of a person to request the special order to. The person said yes. That person is a well-known auto designer. The name is posted in the story.<P><BR>Tony<BR>----<BR>1972 Buick Electra 225 Custom 4-door hardtop sedan<BR>1989 Pontiac Safari 4-door wagon (3-seat)<BR>1991 Honda Accord LX 4-door sedan<BR>----<P>[ 10-23-2001: Message edited by: Shaffer ]<p>[ 10-23-2001: Message edited by: Shaffer ]

[Guest]

Going back a little further in time, there were a lot of stick shift Buicks in Mexico in the middle and late '50s. They were '54s & '55s and were the large body models used by tour companies. I believe I recall one tour driver telling me that they were preferred for the mountain roads of Mexico, and having ridden with him I can understand why. And did those big Roadmasters ever lean at speed on those old mountain roads around Taxco. So it seems possible that stick shift Buicks could have been exported in later years as well.<P>I also recall riding in a stick shift '54 Cadillac in Cuba in January of 1956.<P>I could be wrong on this, but I don't think so. ~ hvs<p>[ 10-23-2001: Message edited by: hvs ]

[66400]

Tony I've owned a '67 Caprice 2dr that was a factory 327 with 4 speed, positrac, bucket seats, console, Comfortron factory air cond, power windows, driver seat reclining pass seat, head rests, am/fm radio, gauge package, ps, disc brakes, 15" wheels, fender skirts, vinyl top, bumper guards, fender lamps, remote control mirror, and tilt steering wheel. May be a couple of other items I don't recall now. <BR> I do remember seeing quite a few 4 speed 2dr '66 Caprices. <BR> I also had a '68 2dr Pontiac Bonneville 428 4 speed bench seat, Air cond, ps, pdrum brakes and am radio were the only options. Quite a contrast to the '67 Caprice I had.<BR> At the 1999 Olds Club of America National convention on display I saw a 1966 Delmont 4dr sedan (that's the lowest priced full size Oldsmobile offered) with factory 4 speed, tilt/telescoping steering, factory Air cond, full wheel covers, and am radio as the only options. At one time you could truly have a car built for you! Henry.

[AK Buickman]

Previous to about the '71 or '72 model year, any Buick less than a Riviera or an Electra 225 had a 3-spd manual transmission as regular production equiptment. This also applied to any Buick less than a Roadmaster, from 1949-1958 (Dynaflow was optional on a '48 Roadmaster). As far as any weird specially-ordered cars from the factory, it's anyone's guess what may have left as a mistake, a joke by assembly line workers, or a specially ordered job for someone with determination and money.<BR>Regular production Electras all came with an automatic transmission.<BR>Some early 1950's cheaper Cadillac models used a standard transmission, and an automatic was optional.<BR>AK Buickman

[Centurion]

Back to the '71 LeSabres and Centurions . . .<BR>I remember reading -- perhaps in a copy of an old dealer bulletin -- that any of these cars equipped with the 3-speed manual transmission could be built only at the Wilmington assembly plant. Given that the '71 LeSabres and Centurions were also built at Kansas City (Fairfax) and Southgate, with a small handful of Centurions also built in Flint, it shows just how limited GM's capacity to produce B-Body cars with manual transmissions was.

[Guest Shaffer]

The 4-speed manuals in the 66-67 Caprice 2-doors are not nearly as rare as the 3-speed column on the 66 Caprice wagon or 4-door. The 66/67 Caprice could be ordered with a "sport" type package with bucket seats, tach and 4speed, like you mentioned. These was rare as well however. Even most Impalas in 1965 was automatics.

[72Buickguy]

Here are the percentages of 1971 B/C body GM with automatic transmissions as reported by Wards: Chevy - 99.1% (prod 676,569). Pontiac - 99.9% (prod 210,476), Olds - 100% (prod 267,070), Buick - 100% (prod - 333,303). Also here are the numbers for the other full size cars that year: Ford - 99.5%, Fury - 99.5%, Dodge - 99.8%, Chrysler - 99.9%. So according to Buick, they did not make any manual transmission cars in 1971, or the number would have been less than .05% (151) if they rounded their numbers off for reporting.

[Guest 70 Electra]

The comments on 66 Caprices caught my interest. One of the clubs I belong to is for 65-66 Chevrolets and I can tell you that a surprisingly large number of these cars had manual transmissions. <P>By far the wierdest ones are the 66 Caprice coupes with bucket seats and 3-speed manuals. You may recall that that a 66 Caprice with bucket seats came with a FULL length console and gage pack that ran non-stop up into the dash. Yet, the 3-speed shifter was on the column! This meant the beautiful full length console had NO shifter where the shifter was supposed to be! Really odd!<P>A close friend of mine has a 100-point Caprice with this set-up. It appeared in Collectible Automobile magazine back around 1992, in a story on 65-66 big Chevies. The beautiful pictures of this stunning car were taken by the now-deceased Nicky Wright. You've got to look really close at the pictures to notice this peculiar shifter/console combo. (Look even closer and you'll see it's also got OVERDRIVE!!) <P>BACK TO BUICKS: <BR>Can't remember who wrote the post, but some time back, during a similar discussion, there were a couple of folks that either owned or had seen 1970 Estate wagons with 3-speed manuals on the column!! (Remember this was a 455-equipped vehicle, too.) <P>One of the guys indicated his car was not a "cheapy", and was actually pretty well loaded even though it had the manual trans. There was also some speculation that the power brake booster (optional on Estate wagon) would interfere with the shift linkage and could not be ordered together. If this was true, I imagine it limited the interest in 3-speed manuals even further. Imagine a big heavy Estate wagon without power brakes! I believe this may have been the last application of a manual with the 455 in a big Buick.<P><BR>One of my other Buick interests is the 1960. I remember reading that the number of manual transmission cars was approximately 1% (and this was about HALF of the 1959 level). This would make it one of the rarest (but not particularly desireable) 1960 Buicks.<P>It's amazing the 3-speed manual was offered in the big cars as long as it was. Obviously, it was offered for the primary purpose of keeping the "base" price of the car low, and not to meet any customer demands. Of course, the risk Buick (or anyone else offering it) had to take was that there was always some farmer in East Overshoe that would order one! Therefore they had to have the parts engineered, produced, and validated. Nowadays, the development costs could not justify this philosophy.<p>[ 10-25-2001: Message edited by: 70 Electra ]

[Guest]

If anyone just HAS to have one, I could be convinced to sell my '58 Special 2-dr. hardtop with factory 3-speed on the column for about $8000, only because I have located another one for sale with lower mileage. If interested, e-mail me at pphillips@netexas.net <P>On the subject of oddball standard shift cars, there is a 1950 Cadillac series 61 (the cheapest series)4-dr. sedan in the Greenville, Texas area, which always shows up each year at the AACA's Bug Tussle Trek in McKinney, Texas. This car has 3-speed stick on the column, no power steering, no power brakes (don't believe it was even offered in 1950), and radio DELETE! Talk about an unusual Cadillac....!

[Guest Shaffer]

I know that Ford did not offer automatic transmissions until 1951. Same for the Mercury. Not sure about the Lincoln. I think the Cadillac was the first to ever offer automatic shift.

[Guest]

I heard that Oldsmobile was the first to offer an automatic trans. GM was the first to perfect the auto trans. Even Rolls-Royce bought GM transmissions. <BR> I heard that before they worked out the bugs they had all kinds of weird solenoids and stuff on the transmissions.

[Guest Shaffer]

Oldsmobile may have been the first with automatic. I know for sure it was a "upscale" General Motors automobile.<p>[ 10-26-2001: Message edited by: Shaffer ]

[Guest walowe]

I have a copy of the GM of Canada sales brochure for 1967 Buicks, and it indicates that the LeSabre and Sportwagon came standard with a "220-hp 340-2 V8; 3-speed Manual Transmission (synchronized in all forward gears)". The Skylark standard engine and transmission was the 210-hp 300 cu in V8 (sport coupe and convertible)/220-hp V8 340 V8 (4-door hardtop) with the 3-speed manual transmission for both. It's odd though, that for the Wildcat, the brochure specifies that a 360-hp 430-4 V8 as the standard engine, but is silent on the transmission. For the Electra 225 and the Riviera, a "Super Turbine Transmission" is listed as standard equipment.

[Guest]

GM Automatic transmissions:<P>Oldsmobile in 1940<P>Cadillac in 1941<P>In 1938 didn't Buick have some kind of an automatic that turned out to be a disaster?

[Guest]

Ford has had a lot of trouble with their automatic transmissions in the late 80's to early 90's. It seems that engineering a good overdrive transmission really put the torque to the engineers. (no pun intended) <BR>Modern engines last a lot longer, but modern transmissions are really hit and miss.

[Guest]

To add more fuel to the fire, one of my friends' ex-husband (a mechanic by trade) told me years ago that he had a full size Ford wagon with 428, manual tranny and bench seat. He said it was one of about twelve built and didn't know how rare it was at the time. They've been divorced for more than ten years so I guess I'll never find out the rest if the story.<P>Back in the mid to late eighties my brother had a '73 Cutlass 442 with 455, floor shift four speed and bench seat. I don't know if the 455 was original but the rest seemed to be.<P>I'm looking at my 1968 Wide-Track Pontiac Parisienne dealer brochure and it says that the three on the tree was available for the six banger and 210hp and 275hp 327's. The heavy duty three speed was only available for 325hp 396 and 385hp 427. Four on the floor available for all of the above noted v8's. Powerslide available for all the above engines except 427. TH400 available for 275hp 327 and 396 and 427. The TH400 was available as an option on 210hp 327 on Parisienne, 2 + 2 and Grande Parisienne models only. That means that the Laurentian, Strato-chief and Safari wagons with 210hp 327's were stuck with the powerglide for an automatic tranny.<p>[ 10-30-2001: Message edited by: Boat Slip ]

[Guest 70 Electra]

Boatslip,<BR>You'll dig on this....Last year, a nearby "muscle car dealer" had a 68 Parisienne convertible with 427/385 hp and factory 4speed. It was the "sporty" model--can't recall the name (2+2, or "Sport" or something like that). <P>Anyway, it was triple black with buckets and console. They claimed it was documented by GM of Canada and was one of some incredibly low number (3, or 5, or similiar)built like that with 4 speed.<P>A VERY fascinating car. Unfortunately,it was like most Canadian iron (no offense) all scaley underneath and full of bondo in the lower quarters and fenders. Also all diecast was pitted. Basically needed FULL restoration to be better than a 20 footer. <P>Amazingly, they wanted BIG money for it (close to 20K U.S.). They dragged it around for a year to every damn auction in the Midwest. It never got bid very high. Don't know where it went or what they finally sold it for.

[Guest]

"Hvs" above is correct. Buick did offer the first automatic transmission to come out on a GM product in 1938. It is called the "self shifter", and it was a very rare option on the '38 Buicks. As a matter of fact, one of these was in attendance this month at our South Central Region's Buick show in Dallas, Texas. It is a '38 Special 2-dr. sedan, owned by David Corbin of Ft. Worth, and the transmission is still operational. The car runs and drives just fine. It has four forward speeds (like the early Hydra-matic) and has the shift lever mounted on the steering column. (In '38, the standard shift was still mounted on the floor.)<P>But, hey, this is supposed to be a discussion of full-sized standard shift cars!<P>Pete Phillips, BCA #7338<BR>Ector, Texas

[Guest]

70 Electra:<P>I'm pleased to announce that my Pontiac was built not twenty minutes (Oshawa) from where I'm typing this. It was bought new in Calgary Alberta for the princely sum of $4525.40 Canuck Bucks (about $5000.00 US dollars at the time). My bill of sale shows the following options: tinted windshield, floor mats, rear defroster, remote mirror, power brakes, block heater, th400, power steering, wheel discs, ww tires (includes fender skirts), electric clock, radio, rear speaker, shoulder belts and dealer optional ... undercoating. After some years the car was sold to someone in Kelowna, BC. The car was brought back to Ontario about ten years ago. The odometer shows 129,000 miles but the car looks (except for the faded paint) and drives like new. The front seats show some wear but the rest of the interior is immaculate. This car has no scale. The only piece of rust I've found is about the size of your finger in the right inner fender at the lip of the wheel. Even the guys at Krown (undercoating) can't believe how good the car is! All of the factory stickers are on the car, I have all of the original sales brochures, warranty info, factory shop manual, etc. and one original key. I dare say that this may be the finest unrestored daily summer driven 1968 Parisienne around.<P>I'm looking far a right inner fender if ne1 has one lying around! Must be absoltuly mint as even the original black paint on mine is mint.<P>Just thought I'd add another Canadian car I saw in a barn last year: a 1968 Beaumont Super Duty 396. The car had 50,000 miles on it and was absolutely immaculate.<P>I apologise for getting off topic.<P>[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Boat Slip ]<p>[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Boat Slip ]

[old-tank]

About 10 years ago I had a chance to but 2 full size stick shift cars. A friend had died suddenly and his wife offered them to me for $500 each. The price was not a problem but storage was since I was in the middle of a body-off-frame restoration of a 55 Century CVT and did not want to leave these cars outside. I also had a 54 Plymouth and a 51 Ford truck to get rid of.<BR>The cars: 56 Special; 70 Wildcat. Both cars had full power and factory air. Both were very low mileage: 25K and 7K.<BR>Willie

[palbuick]

Heres my 2 cents worth.<BR>A long time ago in a Junk yard in northern Wisconsin while shopping with several other club members I stumbled across a 1970 wildcat 2 dr Ht. with the factory 3 speed on the column, the 455 motor was gone, but the bellhousing and trans was still in the car. This was a typical farm country car, 3 speed on the column, cheapest interior, no A/C No radio, and a painted top, P/S, but no P.B.<BR>Just about 8 yrs ago found a 1973 Century with the factory 3 speed on the colunm, anothe cheapie car, no carpeting, no radio. no p/s, no p/b. but it had glass and tires on it. A little smarter then I got all the 3 speed set up from the pedals to the trans, bellhousing all the clutch linkage, steering column, cross member, driveshaft, I didn't leave an extra bolt lying around.<BR>The cars were out there.<P>Jim Schilf / palbuick@aol.com

[Guest Shaffer]

No carpet in a 73 Century? Strange. I though all CARS (not trucks) had standard carpet of some sort by 1973.

[66400]

On the subject of odd 3 speed cars just posted on eBay is a 1966 Chev Caprice stationwagon with a factory 3 speed manual tranny and it never even had a radio installed. This is the high trim level car with the wood grain trim package. If any one wants to look at it the item # is 597952572. Henry