52 Desoto and 49 Chrysler General info questions

[56Roadmaster]

Hi all

We now have a 49 Chrysler Winsor hdtp w/spitfire six. and 52 Desoto 2dr sedan six. For both does any one have production #'s for each year. Also good source for chrome pieces, and for the 49 do hoods interchange w/ any other models? also on 49 front frame x member interchanges? The 49 has 38k but unfortunately suffered from being outside.

Thanks for any info.

[Guest DeSoto Frank]

Scott,

"Standard Catalog of Chrysler: 1914 -2000" (2000 edition, Krause Publications) lists a 2dr Club Coupe for Windsor in '49 (17,732 produced), but no true pillarless hardtops.

The 1950 Chrysler line-up did offer hardtops: the Windsor Newport 2dr Hardtop, the New Yorker Newport 2 dr. HT, and a Town & Country Newport 2dr HT.

For De Soto, in 1952 there was a lower-priced "Deluxe" series and the upper-priced "Custom" in the six-cylinder camp, and then the new Firedome V-8 series.

For two-drs, the Deluxe offered only the 2dr "Club Coupe"(6,100 units), while the Custom and the Firedome offered both the 2dr Club Coupe(19,000 units six cyl.) and a Sportsman 2dr Hardtop (8,750 units six cyl.).

As to parts swapability, sheetmetal from any 1949 & '50 Chrysler SIX cylinder car (Royal & Windsor) is the same, except for variations in trim. WARNING: Hood and front fenders, as well as wheels and suspension components from an EIGHT cylinder Chrysler(Saratoga, New Yorker, T&C, Imperial) are different; they will NOT work on your Windsor; the hood & front fenders are longer to acommodate the longer engine, and the suspension is for what is known as a "large chassis car" - any of the straight-8 Chrysler products, as well as the Long Wheelbase Chrysler,De Soto, Dodge, & Plymouth sixes from the forties & fifties.

Good chrome pieces can be tough; on the "up-scale" De Soto and Chrysler, they used much more pot-metal trim pieces than was used on the cheaper Dodge & Plymouth (they used stainless steel intead -which do you think was the better deal in the long run ?); best bets are NOS when you can find it, or used pieces from a car from a non-salt state for a minimum of pitting...

Hope you enjoy these vehicles; Chrysler & De Soto sixes may be considered "boring" by many, but these were comfortable, well-built, reliable cars.

[56Roadmaster]

Frank,

I kind of figured you would respond as soon as you saw this. It may well be that 49 is a 50 because I am going on what was told to me. I just found our that the 52 Desoto is actually a 51 according to serial # (from one on my old Chilton books). There is no pillar on the Chrysler, so I will check serial #. Thanks for the sheet metal info. To your knowledge in there any one making floor panels, or rocker panels for the Windsor? I will probably make my own, but if there is a GOOD quality repop, It saves time.

Thanks

[6219_Rules]

I thought I might tell you both that there is a really nice 1956 DeSoto Firedome available at a local car lot here in Denver. It is yellow, I think, and in good original condition. I posted the name of the place under the Cadillac-LaSalle forum but would be happy to share that information with anyone interested. Its at the Oldies But Goodies lot and you can ask about it by emailing Mark Fyke at OGAutoman@qwest.net. I think pictures are availble at www.collectorcartraderonline.com.

[Guest DeSoto Frank]

Further ID tips for your cars:

"'49 vs '50 Chrysler?": tail lights. The '49 tailights were part of a big chromed spear that sat on top of the rear fenders. For 1950, the tailights were "frenched" into the back edge of the rear fender - with the bezel & lens winding-up flush with the fender contours.

Also, for all Chrysler Corp. products from about 1937 up to the late 1950's: cars had a make/model year code that was usually on the Body tag on the firewall and the boss where the engine # is stamped; consisting of a letter followed by a one or two digit number:

Chrysler = C-48W (ex: 1950 Chrysler Windsor)

Dodge = D-24C (ex: 1946-48 Dodge Custom)

De Soto = S-8 S (ex: 1941 De Soto Deluxe)

Plymouth = P-15 (ex: 1946-48 Plymouth -all)

The letter following the number indicates what model series the car is: "Windsor"/"Royal"/"Saratoga"/"New Yorker" or "Deluxe"/"Custom"

The engine # on the sixes is found on a rectangular boss, loacted on the left side of the engine bolck, at the front, just below the parting line where the cylinder head meets the block (above the generator). Engine # is a four to six digit number, preceeded by the model/year code noted above. (Note: this engine number pertains to the original vehicle in which a given engine was installed...if an engine was swapped, it might bear a diffrent code/engine # than appropriate for the chassis in which you find it....)

Good luck!

Frank

[56Roadmaster]

Yep,

thanks Frank, I did find that the engines are orignal, and the Chrysler is as you say a '50. I guess the '49 lights must be like the '49 Plymouth's.

Another question for you:

The Chrysler is stuck some how in reverse, We can shift into the nuetral position and it goes to nuetral, but in shifting in to ANY other position it goes into reverse be it 1,2 or 3rd. The reverse lights are on at all times. I have not investigated too far, yet but found what would appear to a broken return spring, on one of the shift shaft arms on the tranny, does this pull the shift fork in away to allow getting in to other gears?

Can I fix this without going into tranny?

[Guest DeSoto Frank]

Scott,

Both cars should have the (infamous) M-6 Semi-Automatic transmission ("Prestomatic Fluid Drive"-Chrysler; "Tip-Toe Shift" -De Soto; same unit both cars.)

This a a four-speed "manual" transmission with semi-automatic up-shifts between 1st & 3rd (low range) or 2nd & 4th (high range); shift pattern is the same as any American column shift, except the usual 1st gear position (towards the steering wheel, then down) is blocked-out.

There are two levers on the side of the tranny: one is a "selector lever", that selects whether you're changing into "reverse" or between low & high ranges(this is the one with a spring on it); the other lever is the one that actually moves the shifter forks inside the tranny.

If the return spring is broken or missing from the selector lever, the tranny will only shift between neutral & reverse or between low & high ranges.

Fix this before worrying about the back-up lights.

Also, check out this website for more info about flathead MoPars:

"P15-D-24.com" - site is devoteed primarily to '46-'48 Dodge & Plymouth, but all flathead MoPar enthusiasts are welcome on the forum, and there is a wealth of MoPar info there...

Good luck!

Frank

(Let me know if you have more questions about actually driving the semi-auto...it's NOT like a modern hydramatic !!!)

[56Roadmaster]

Ok Frank I'll take you up on that.

How do you obtain 4 speeds out of what appears to be a rev + 3spd pattern? In other words how to drive such tranny, must clutch be used for all shifts? Can we come to stop IN GEAR and then take off since there is a torque converter? We don't have the owner's manual and this is a "new" beast to me. oh also what type fluid to use in torque coverter? tranny?

Thanks

[Guest DeSoto Frank]

Whoa-up there, pardner...

No torque convertors here, no tranny fluid either!

My first suggestion is to find a shop manual, either MoToR's, Chilton, or best of all, a reprint of a factory book, and read a bit on the Chrysler & De Soto chapters...

Prior to 1951, ALL Chrysler Fluid Drive-equipped cars had a straight 1:1 Fluid Coupling - there was no toque multiplication accomplished by the unit, so it is not a torque convertor. (1951 & later V-8 cars did get a revised version that employed an honest-to-goodness torque convertor:"Fluid Torque Drive".)

Both the Fluid Coupling and the semi-auto tranny use #10W motor oil. (yes, it's still made - Pennzoil & Valvoline still supply it...). DO NOT use ATF of any kind in a fluid coupling - it will destroy the seal ($$$$).

As I said earlier, this is NOT an automatic trans. like we are familiar with...this is an outgrowth of the vacuum-operated Simplimatic transmission of Chrysler & De Soto from 1941 & '42...it is a MANUAL TRANSMISSION (sliding gear-type) that shifts up or down between two speeds in a choice of two forward driving ranges ("low" or "high"); the up shift is controlled by a governor, relay, solenoid, and release of the throttle by the driver, when the car reaches the appropriate speed. Down shift is achieved either a kickdown switch on the carb (actuated by flooring the accelerator) or when the vehicle speed drops below a certain pre-set point, the governor points close, the solenoid operates, and the tranny downshifts. When in the lower speed of either range, the transmission free-wheels - the car does not coast against the engine.

The clutch needs to be used only to change driving ranges ("low", "high", or "reverse"); once in a driving range, you need only apply the brake when coming to a stop.

The M-5 & M-6 versions of the semi-auto use a rear oil pump and hydraulic servo in the transmission for upshift, replacing the vacuum servos on the pre-war units.

"So HOW do I drive it?" you ask?

Basically (assuming the car has functioning brakes - would not recommed attempting to drive it until you have brakes !), you depress the foot clutch, select your driving range( let's say "High"),let the clutch out (foot on brake), and when you're ready to go forward, you release the brake and step on the accelerator. The car will begin to move forward (in second gear); when the car speed reaches about 15 mph, take your foot COMPLETELY off the accelerator and wait for the transmission to up shift (you will feel the car slow down a bit when the shift occurs - once in high gear (fourth gear in this case), the tranny no longer free-wheels, and the resistance you suddenly feel is the car braking against the engine. Once the up shift has taken place, re-apply the accelerator and get up to your desired speed.

(A few notes: idle speed must be set no higher than 500 rpm; 400-450 is better. The engine MUST be able to return to low idle or the upshift will be delayed or won't occur at all. Your foot must come COMPLETELY off the accelerator.)

"Reverse" is just that; there is no automatic shifting.

Because there is a choice of just two forward driving ranges, "2nd" & "3rd" gear selector positions are the only ones used on the column...the "1st" gear position just doesn't exist.

The operation shifts up & down between two gears in either of the two ranges.

High (4th) gear is direct drive, by the way.

Because the tranny free-wheels until it up-shifts, this is why I don't recommend experimenting with driving it until the service brakes work reliably; you won't get the car stopped by simply switching off the engine & leaving it in gear, like you could with a regular stick-shift.

One of the features of Fluid Drive touted by Chrysler was "there is no mechanical connection between the engine and the wheels...only a cushion of oil"...

E-mail me off-forum, and we can exchange more info - "fran@kirbycenter.org"...

[Guest ILchryslerguy]

Frank

I could use your help on my 48 Chrysler, same trany as Scott's. where do you fill and drain the torque converter . I just purchased this car and fluid drive is a different type of equipment compared to the other cars I have. I would love any help you could offer. Thanks Al Atkinson (ilchryslerguy)

Edited September 12, 2009 by ILchryslerguy (see edit history)

[Guest jbondaston]

Does 1949 chrysler new yorker have a small plug in torque converter to keep fluid in

[Guest Bob Call]

Please re-read Frank's explainatory posting and STOP calling the fluid coupling a torque converter. It does NOT multiply the torque as a torque converter does. Sorry, but I'm anal about such things.

[Rusty_OToole]

"Does 49 Chrysler New Yorker have small plug in torque converter to keep fluid in."

No it has a large plug and it's a fluid drive unit not a torque converter.

If you go to the Chrysler and Dodge boards and search for Fluid Drive you will find everything you need to know and then some. The whole subject of fluid drive servicing, repair, proper driving technique and so on was gone into very, very thoroughly about 2 years ago and if you think I'm going to type it all out again you are crazy.

I will tell you there is a plate in the floor under the carpet, on the right side of the driveshaft tunnel, about even with the dash. If you go thru there you will find an access hole for the fill plug. Stuff a rag around the hole before you take the plug out, you don't want to drop the plug down in the clutch housing.

Fill up with TDH tractor fluid, ISO32 grade. You get it at Walmart, farm supply, or auto parts stores.

[Rusty_OToole]

It is VERY IMPORTANT to distinguish between a torque converter and fluid drive. Chrysler products came with both, sometimes the same year and model could be bought with either one.

They are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT when it comes to servicing so if you mix them up you may wind up in a mess when you go to service or repair your car.

You had a choice of torque converter or fluid drive only in 1951 52 and 53. So if you have a Chrysler product for those years it pays to figure out which you have and don't make any mistake about it when you ask questions.