oil type for -59 dynaflow

[Guest]

is it true that the dynaflow is supposed to run on straight type engine oil?if so, what weight, think Ivé heard straight 40, soo, what do u think?

friend got a elektra -59 with regular atf, and it seems kinda slippery, and it has been rebuilt recently,and we adjusted it acc. to an old chiltons w-s manual.

any help on this would be much appretiated.

/Vincent

[Judd]

Vincent

My 56 shop manual calls for type A auto trans fluid in the Dynaflow and power steering. I think a 59 would use the same.

[Mrbuick714]

Dexron

[Centurion]

There were two different versions of the Dynaflow offered in the '59 Buick: Twin Turbine and Triple Turbine. Check to see if there is a "G" for "Grade" in the car's shift quadrant on the instrument panel. If there is a "G" at the bottom of the shift quadrant, it means that the car has the optional Triple Turbine.

Generally, I have heard that Dexron II is suitable for both types of Dynaflows. (I've also heard that the newer Dexron III may lack some of the needed properties of the earlier Dexron II.)

If the car has Triple Turbine, my understanding is that the modern Automatic Transmission Fluids may lack an ingredient needed for this transmission, resulting in insufficient friction on the "sprag clutch" faces. One old-time transmission mechanic has recommended use of one quart of Ford Type "F" Automatic Transmission Fluid along with the Dexron, and this approach has proven effective for at least one friend with a '59 Triple Turbine. Also, be aware that some people find that the Triple Turbine has a unique driving feel. As one individual recently posted in this forum, "As more throttle is used, the variable pitch stator gradually changes angle -- this can give the sensation of slippage -- although that is not the case; the transmission is simply giving more torque multiplication as the driver commands."

So, the answer to your question is Dexron. Do not under any circumstances use motor oil in an automatic transmission.

[Guest]

thanks a bunch, guys,will try to check if it´s a 2 or 3 turbine trans, but i´m pretty sure it´s a 2 turbine type,next Q:is there a shop manual for this car available in new production?found a old,hardly readable(due to oily fingers) thay asked 300$ for it!

[Guest Dynaflo2]

Try eBay. Here is a current listing.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...item=2413900306

I hope this helps.

[The Old Guy]

www.FactoryAutomanuals.com The man that runs it has almost everything,and is very fair.

[Guest]

I have been doing some research on the transmimssion oils and have turned up some data of interest. If you could still get Dexron II it would work well. Dexron III has had a number of changes to it additives. Zinc compounds have been removed as well as some other items. The zinc would help in heat transfer in metal to metal contacts. Without the zinc you will get increased ware and more heat. Things will work ok but not as good as they should. The Dexron III has been formulated for new transmission. The EPA also got into the act to have the additives removed. One person I contacted who rebuilds Turbo 400s for racing only uses type F. It has better heat transfer and better friction specs. I have used type F in a Flight Pitch with good results but have not driven it thousands of miles to really test it out yet. I am still trying to get some specs from the oil companies on DIII. Nothing yet.

Has anyone else turned up more data?

Bill

[NTX5467]

Bill, you might also check for the formulations of the Chrysler 7176+ atf in addition to Type F. Our Pennzoil rep once said, when we were discussing atf several years ago, that Chrysler's (then) 7176+ spec fluid was basically the same fluid they'd been using since the '60s, although Chrysler evolved into the Dexron fluids for their regular rear wheel drive TorqueFlites in '68 or so. Chrysler and Ford both have specific fluids for their front wheel drive transaxles that must be used or their durability will suffer greatly with something else in them.

Usually, there are still some Type A atf brands at the auto supplies and such, but are usually "low line" brands. That might be a decent alternative provided the additive packages are reasonably good.

Dexron II was basically the original Dexron but had corrosion inhibitors in it so the trans cooler in the radiator tank would not deteriorate. Dexron IIa was an intermediate upgrade for a few years in the middle '80s or so, prior to the final and current Dexron III fluid which came online with the elecrtronic controlled transmissions with the elecrtric solenoids that took the place of the spring loaded shuttle valves in the valve body (where the springs resisted fluid pressure prior to moving and changing the fluid flow within the valve body as a result).

From my experience with my '77 Camaro THM 350, the Dexron IIa and III fluids led to a little bit quicker shift than the previous Dexron II did. Not much, but if you were keyed into it, it was there. Adding the GM Automatic Transmission Conditioner to the Dexron II fluid also seemed to quicken the shift some, even though it's main purpose is a detergent additive with some seal conditioner too.

There was an excellent article on the difference in Dexron and Type F atf in "Car Life" magazine along about 1968. The main difference mentioned was the manner in which the frictions "locked-up" with the metal plates or drum. Dexron had a little more initial slip upon initial apply pressure, but this was only during the initial apply phase. Type F had a more aggressive initial lock-up phase that resulted in the quicker and firmer shifts in transmissions that were not designed to use it (i.e., non-Ford built). Therefore, in a GM or Chrysler transmission, the Type F caused a quicker "grab" than the Type A or Dexron fluids did. This is why the high performance enthusiasts usually changed their Dexron fluid to Type F. There was mention that the B&M Trick Shift fluid was built around a Type F specification, but that was not concretely confirmed, due to the way it acted in the non-Ford transmissions. In the '80s, Ford started evolving into using Dexron fluids instead of their Type F spec fluids. Now, their Mercon is basically the same as Dexron III, at least enough so that most companies build a Dexron III/Mercon fluid. Could it be that Ford's new Mercon still has an additive package that's more like the older Type F?

That "Car Life" article made no mention of any differences in the additive packages with respect to anti-wear characteristics. The late '60s was also the time frame that saw many metallic washers, bushings, and such be replaced with plastic materials in their place. That change might have resulted in the zinc and such not being really as necessary?

I noticed on the Castrol Australia website that they have many different lubricants down there than we have up here. Seemingly less emphasis on synthetics from what I noticed. Perhaps there's a more Type A oriented fluid that's still available in another country that would be more inline with the original fluids for the DynaFlows?

Many of the high performance automatic transmission companies usually have their own line of fluids to complement their transmissions. I suspect there are more anti-wear additives in those fluids due to their intended use in transmissions that see much higher loads than regular street driving would present. There could be some possibilities there just as with fully synthetic atf (provided the synthetic atf would be compatible with the rubber seals and such).

Just some thoughts . . .

NTX5467

[Mrbuick714]

I started working on Dynaflows in 1947. You say "no way" Yes I was hired when Buick was working on a unit they called "Turboflow",and the manual was hand typewritten and stapled together.They named it "Dynaflow"shortly thereafter. I hit the road with Dynaflow (serial # 5) in the trunk of a brand-new 48 Roadmaster,holding schools in the midwest.The two worst problems we had were with seal hardening(fixed with red seals),but a real headache was with Type "A" fluid. At that time it took longer to CLEAN parts than to REBUILD the later units which came with "Dexron" If you have any "Type A"fluid,take it to a swap meet and sell it to someone who collects petroleum memorabilia.

[NTX5467]

That's interesting, Mrbuick714! Per chance, when they formulated the Dexron fluid spec, did they also upgrade the temperature tolerance or just enhance the detergent additive package? Just curious.

Thanks in advance,

NTX5467

[Judd]

Mrbuick714

Just to make sure I have this strait your saying I should ignore the manual and use Dexron II? Can I use this Dexron III? What about my 56 power steering? Thanks.

[NTX5467]

I did quite a bit of searching last night and today on automatic transmission fluids. I first put in "dexron transmission fluid spec" into Google and got lots of sales literature information, until I got past the 15th page and then some references to specifications came out. Today, I put "type a transmission fluid" in and tried that deal. It read "a" as a word and deleted it so I ended up with lots of sales stuff until I got down to the 15th or so page.

From what I found, the Chrysler 7176 spec fluid is a little more slipperier than the Dexron spec, but is similar enough to Dexron that they are compatible. In an Amsoil site, it listed that Dexron II was 5W-20 viscosity and the Dexron III was 0W-20 viscosity. Each upgrade of Dexron seems to have a little more better additive package to keep things clean and working well and help the transmission last longer. I also found a lubricant site that still listed Type A transmission fluid, along with other hydraulic fluids. by the way, what I previously called "Dexron IIa" should have been "Dexron IIE", which coincided with the upgraded Dexron II spec for the electronic controlled transmissions, later evolving into Dexron III.

One thing that we many times run across when dealing with more vintage vehicles is that the spec fluids for the vehicle when it was produced are no longer available as such, only their newer versions. Motor oil is a fine example of this. Even the most premium multigrade of the later '60s would not meet the current standards of the automakers, yet we usually don't have any problem using the current oils in the earlier engines. In fact, it's probably better for them anyway, not to mention the wide availability of blended synthetic or straight synthetic engine oils.

Type A atf was listed as "non friction modified" whereas the Dexron and other modern fluids were listed as "friction modified". I suspect that "friction modified" refers to the frictional lockup characteristics of the fluid and how it interacts with the transmission friction plates or bands during the "apply" mode of the individual clutch pack or band.

In one respect the multi-viscosity atf would be better just as multi-viscosity motor oil can benefit engines. I don't see where the friction characteristics might be that important in a DynaFlow as once the particular clutch pack/band is applied to make the vehicle go forward or backward, all of the driving force comes through the converters and such (correct me if I'm wrong on this one). The multi-viscosity might be a plus in colder climates and something of a moot point in other places.

I also discovered that there's still a lot of what appears to be misinformation out there on transmission fluid issues, especially when those asking the questions are much younger than the transmissions. Many transmission techs seem to have lots of "tricks" that have seemed to work for them too, just like the little enhancements they do when they rebuild a particular transmission. Can't really discount their orientations and information as it's worked for them.

There are lots of compelling reasons to use the later Dexron fluids in place of the earlier and pretty much disappeared/discontinued Type A spec atf. One major consideration is to use fluids that are readily available and probably better than what the original fluid spec was. Of course, if you want to take the trouble to find and procure Type A fluid, it's your money.

In those earlier times also, it was common to use atf in power steering units of GM and others. In the '60s, a separate power steering fluid surfaced that everyone seemed to start using. Much of that has to do with seal compatibility in the steering system. In these later vehicles, if the system is full of atf (due to a leak, after being repeatedly topped-off with atf instead of the correct power steering fluid), then flushing the system and refilling it with genuine GM power steering fluid has been known to stop the seeps and leaks (from my own experience). The newer power steering fluid would have a particular additive package that would better suit the power steering units than atf, I suspect.

In one respect, it's all "hydraulic" oil, but there are many differences with respect to the perils of the different operational environments--whether it be particular base stocks, additive packages, and/or viscosities.

Hope this helps . . .

NTX5467