36 Oldsmobile F36... Electrical Problems, Power to coil and regulator-NO spark.

[philipj]

Facing a challenge I have never come across before... I have power to the ignition coil and voltage regulator, but no spark... What could be the culprit? The coil will get warm quickly, which I have never seen before either. Stumped!

Edited June 23, 2023 by philipj (see edit history)

[Bloo]

Put a test light on the exposed low voltage wire of the coil, and the clamp end of the light to ground. Turn ignition on and crank.

 

1) Light stays off... disconnect the small wire to the distributor, Put the test light on the exposed

    low voltage coil terminal again and turn the ignition on.

   1a) Light still off.... Either the coil is burned out, or you don't *really* have voltage to it.

         It is hard to tell because the hot wire is armored. Do you know how to take the cap off of

         the coil? I have done it and will try to remember how if it would help.

   1b) Light on now..... Either the points aren't opening or something is shorted to ground inside

         the distributor.

Put the low voltage wire back on.

 

2) Light came on solid and didn't flash while cranking. Points are not closing or a wire is broken.

     It could be the low voltage wire from the coil to the distributor, or it could be the points wire

     or the ground wire inside the distributor.

 

3) Light flashes while cranking . This is normal.

 

When you have the light flashing, if there is still no spark, take the coil wire off at the distributor end, put it close to the block/head somewhere and crank. See if you have spark at the coil wire. If no spark there, or extremely weak spark, try a new condenser. If that doesn't fix it, the coil is probably bad.

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[philipj]

Hello Bloo,

 

I have tested one original delco coil that will get warm with the ignition on, no spark... So, even though I had the cap off, it was obviously getting power because it would get slightly warm... Then I tried a brand new (for the year 2000) coil right out of the box and would also get a little warm, no spark... Then I tried a third coil, the one that came with the car and nothing... Though it did not notice it getting warm, still no spark... What could be shorted with the distributor if I have all new wires, condenser, points... If things were working normally with the power on all I have to do is flick the points and see a spark, or use a test lamp there, and slightly open and close the points if I want to double check my eyes...

 

I do have a spare distributor, but is there anything under the plate that could cause a problem? Not that I remember... Here is a pic of the current set-up...

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by philipj (see edit history)

[Bloo]

If the coil is getting hot, it is probably on all the time and you have a short. I'll bet if you had checked with a light it would be solid off. No matter. Disconnect that wire to the coil and check ohms or continuity between the outside terminal of the distributor and the distributor case. It should go open circuit when you open the points. I suspect it won't, and I suspect the trouble is at that bolt where the W/BL-TR wire, the condenser wire, and the points all come together. That has to be insulated, Is it? Are those one-piece or 2-piece points? There are probably some phenolic spacers or fiber washers that go in there somehow to keep the terminals and the points spring and the bolt from touching ground. I will go look at the Pontiac shortly, although it is not exactly the same. It seems Olds got the new larger distributor design a year ahead of Pontiac. Still, I'll bet the method used to insulate that is very similar.

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Bloo]

OK, looked at the Pontiac, and it might even be the same distributor series after all. Also, that bolt looks huge compared to mine. I didn't take it apart because I didn't want to reset the points, but I remember now that the whole distributor was a godawful mess when I go the car. Someone may have been working only with a hammer and a pliers.

 

If you have a short, take that spot where the wires and the points come together all apart and see what is there. For the metal parts, I suspect it should be:

 

bolt >> washer >> (insulators) >> washer >> lockwasher >> nut.

 

The hole in the insulators will determine how big the bolt can be. Yours may be too big but it is hard to tell.

 

For the insulators I suspect it should be:

 

1) Shoulder washer (with shoulder thickness slightly less than the thickness of the metal) >> flat washer

OR

2) Shoulder washer (with shoulder thickness less than half the hole thickness) >> shoulder washer (same)

OR

3) Washer >> sleeve to go inside hole >> washer

 

These insulating parts would have all been bakelite or phenolic originally. Ace hardware might have something that will work in nylon. My car most likely has option 1) in Ace Hardware white nylon. Something about like this, plus a nylon flat washer. It will work in a pinch if the original parts are broken or missing.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[philipj]

Hello Bloo,

 

Funny thing that when I got this (car) distributor it was all messed up. wrong points, wrong insulator (broken) on bottom, etc. Just a bolt in between the condenser wire and points... The points are two piece type. Now You may have hit the nail right in the head, because there are no insulators between the points or condenser leads... I was wondering about that, and since I have no way to get any more info, I got a used distributor just for the correct? missing bolt that connects the points and condenser leads... I imagine it may be the right bolt, but there were no insulators there either... By the way the distributor is a Delco 647-C... 

[maok]

A good chance its grounding from the places where I have circled. 

That is correct how that bolt that connects the condensor, points spring and wire but the bolt thread looks to be very close to the base of the breaker, it should not be grounding.

 

The pivot point of the breaker arms look to be insulated (arrow) but again you need to confirm its not grounding from underneath.

 

As Bloo said, check for continuity from the coil wire to the base of the distributor when the points are open, ie on the high point of the distributor shaft cam.

 

[Bloo]

That piece the bolt goes through is part of the breaker plate and is grounded. The condenser wire, the points wire, the points spring, and the bolt all need to connect together and must be insulated from ground. There absolutely should be insulation in there, and if there isn't, that is the problem.

 

Great if you can get original parts. I did eventually get the original parts in the form of a whole spare distributor, but haven't yet put it in. The bakelite or phenolic is better for sure, as nylon is soft and gets softer with heat. Distributors get hot. Nevertheless it has been fine for 6 years. Your bolt may be fine, I just can't tell for sure. If it is wrong it won't fit through the insulators. If you have to buy a modern bolt to get back on the road, be sure to get one with a hex head. these need to be serviceable with open end wrenches.

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[maok]

Also, check the obvious - the condensor.

[Bloo]

When you take that all apart where the wires and spring attach with the bolt, you will see how it is. There's a big hole in that tab for the insulation to go through. The points spring goes completely on the inside, held back from the tab by the insulation.

 

[philipj]

Just to recap the assembly order of things regarding the connections and insulators, I'm going from left to right...

 

Nut- flat washer -hat shaped insulator (fitting inside vertical recess on plate)-points flat spring- flat insulator washer- condenser lead (together w.) negative lead- flat washer- bolt.

 

I will also check the blue areas indicated by Maoc to make sure that the negative leads flag terminals (not original but adapted) are not touching the bottom of the plate... Now that I have located original parts distributor, I could try to rob what appear to be original leads, but you know how that goes, the minute you touch them, the fabric falls right apart...

[philipj]

I just went over the info. and realized my mistake regarding the order! I believe it should be from left to right:

 

Nut- flat washer- spring points- condenser lead- negative lead- hat shaped insulator (fitting inside vertical recess) flat insulator washer- bolt.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by philipj (see edit history)

[Bloo]

3 hours ago, philipj said:

I just went over the info. and realized my mistake regarding the order! I believe it should be from left to right:

 

Nut- flat washer- spring points- condenser lead- negative lead- hat shaped insulator (fitting inside vertical recess) flat insulator washer- bolt.

 

 

 

Yes.

 

That takes care of what matters. I think I would put a metal washer under the bolt head too, so it can't dig into the insulating washer.

 

Since I know you like knowing these little details, I suspect originally the bolt went in the opposite direction. I just dug out my very original looking spare distributor, and that is how it is assembled. That detail does not matter, as it appears it would fit either way without touching ground.

 

Another thing I noticed on the spare distributor is what the original insulators look like. The insulating washers are pieces of brown phenolic sheet, rectangular, but with a rectangular "tail"  at one corner (maybe to keep them from turning because they are not round?). The tails look completely unnecessary. Both tails are are on a corner closest to the breaker plate, and both point down (south) if viewed from the angle your pic shows. The insulating washers being made of phenolic sheet material implies the "step" or insulating piece that goes through the hole is really a separate piece. None of that matters either, but it is apparently how they did it.

 

[philipj]

Ahhh! Wonderful... I have a feeling that this will do it, and you know me so well... Yes, I appreciate the little details. Oddly enough, the bolt was mounted the way you see it on the photo on the spare distributor that I got also, BUT that doesn't mean is right... I will try it the other way. The only benefit of being mounted this way now is the fact that you can wedge a very small screwdriver between the head of the bolt (slot) and the inside of the body to keep it from spinning as you secure the nut on the other side...