1929 Ross steering box adjustment?

[Gary_Ash]

My Studebaker Indy car replica project has a 1929 Studebaker President steering box, a Ross unit.  I took it apart, cleaned everything, put in new cups and balls, pressed in and reamed new bushings.  The arm has a single, large diameter pin, didn't seem to have a flat spot; the worm didn't seem scored or badly worn.  However, I have what I think is too much play at the steering wheel, about 2" of motion at the edge of the 17" wheel before any action takes place. This same box was used in 1929 and 1930 Studebakers, but in 1931 Ross apparently added an adjustment screw on the rear plate of the box to keep the pin pushed into the worm and reduce backlash.  My rear plate is flat, no screw.  Can I swap in a later rear plate, add a screw to my current plate, or make a new plate with provisions for a screw to reduce the backlash?  Is there any other way to adjust this?  I know that I can buy a spring-loaded pin (TightSteer) for the Ross units used in early Jeep CJ's, that might also work.

 

I put a dial indicator on the outer tip of the arm, was able to push and pull the arm in and out with a motion of about 0.025".  I did set the preload on the bearings for the steering column shaft, don't have any up/down motion if I pull up on the steering wheel.  If I pull the arm outward and hold it, the steering wheel seems to have a little less play.  I'd like to fix this.

 

Ross steering box worm and arm during rebuild.  Cups, balls, and bushings were replaced with new parts.

 

Ross box mounted on chassis.  Original cast-in mounting flange was removed and replaced by adjustable clamp..

 

Dial indicator on shaft of arm.  Play is about 0.025".

[edinmass]

I thought the President used a Gemmer 215 in 1929 & 1930. That’s a Ross box all right, but it looks smaller that what I would expect. Ross boxes are the best of the early offerings......but the box you have opened up looks like a low end or mid range unit. The high end boxes didn’t have any bushings in them at all. Were did you source the box? Cislak is an expert on boxes if you need help, and he’s close by you.......👍

 

Hours later:

That box has a fixed pin and a bushing on the sector shaft.......so it's definitely the low end box.......on a racecar I would expect it will be ok, but the high end boxes used Torrington bearings on the sector, and a doubble bearing roller pin......all that makes a much better box and easier to steer. Right now that box is putting huge loads on the bronze sector shaft bushing............basically a very high loaded surface thats prone to wearing, drag, and friction. It would be a good idea to machine the box for modern seals and run ATF as a lubricant. Keeping the liquid grease in that box was difficult when new with the felt seal at the bottom. In your application my guess is you can make a block off plate. I would probably run motorcycle gear oil in it if your are able to block it off. Some will leak past the sector shaft, but at least it will have lubrication.........the bushings usually gat little to no lubrication.....and thus the shaft and bushing are often junk. 

Edited August 24, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[F&J]

On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2020 at 11:16 AM, Gary_Ash said:

I put a dial indicator on the outer tip of the arm, was able to push and pull the arm in and out with a motion of about 0.025".  I did set the preload on the bearings for the steering column shaft, don't have any up/down motion if I pull up on the steering wheel.  If I pull the arm outward and hold it, the steering wheel seems to have a little less play.  I'd like to fix this.

 

I enlarged the pic of the worm gear and it sure looks like the gear face wearing surfaces are badly pitted from water/rust.

 

If chasing 2" of freeplay, I can't see how you could get it acceptable if those wear surfaces are rusted away.  At "true dead center" on the worm, the worm is machined to have zero freeplay with the fixed sector peg, but it did have freeplay when steered in either direction of that true center.  That is so the steering wheel can return easier.

 

the other bad thing about those rusted worm surfaces is that it will create a lot of drag when you steer when stopped or lower speeds.  The Ross boxes are a fast ratio at the worm, meaning usually less than 3 turns from lock to lock.  That fast ratio makes the drag from rust pitted worm surfaces even greater than a conventional worm & roller steering box which are over 4 turns, to 6 turns, from lock to lock.

 

...and yours is a fixed peg, versus the later one with bearing mounted peg.  The fixed peg running on a pitted worm will definitely steer much harder than if it had a bearing mounted peg running on a pitted worm.

 

I just am not a fan of Ross.  Their single peg units just physically didn't have a way to increase the ratio because the peg would run off of the worm.  Ross knew it was a limited design and later went to a dual peg.  When one peg started to leave the worm, the other peg took over.  A true nightmare in machining a worm to do that and maintain zero play at center.

[edinmass]

I agree with the above....the peg on the bearing works fantastic.....the solid pin was a problem from new, and went away in 1929 if I am not mistaken. Duesenberg Model J used the fixed pin on their big box early on, and ended up changing them out and going to the floating pin. They steer ten times better than the fixed pin. The Ross worm IS a nightmare......as far as I know no one has made new Ross worms on any box. We did the Gemmer 215 series worms.......they were a HUGE undertaking. I know you have time and money in that box, but after seeing the rust on my big screen(I often view the thread on my phone) I agree with F&J.....time for a new box. 

 

Remember also, weathered boxes are often rusty, as they were not sealed or designed to be in the open. On top of that, many were run empty of lubrication, so a "good dry" box may also be shot from lack of oil/grease.

Edited August 19, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Studeous]

No experience with ross boxes but I do like the lace job on the regulator wire loom.....Is that period correct? Reminds me of lace jobs 

 on old and ancient western electric apparatus. Is that a stainless firewall? Nice work on the car.  I do enjoy your posts. Thank you.

 

[Gary_Ash]

I wound up with two of those Ross boxes from 1929 Studebaker Presidents, took the best worm to use, though it isn't perfect.  There aren't any new ones, as Ed says.  I did look long and hard for box with a bearing, couldn't find one.  From old photos, I know the casting number on the one with a bearing that I wanted was 222994 but don't know what car it was used in, think it was pre-1931.

 

I've had a number of email exchanges this past week with Roger Siminoff who makes the TightSteer spring-loaded plunger to replace the adjustment screw in later Ross boxes, such as used in older Jeeps and my 1948 Studebaker M5 pickup truck.  But, the 1929 President box doesn't have an adjustment screw for the sector arm.  I can drill and tap the back cover for one, but I would also have to fill the conical hole on the axis of the arm, probably used as a lathe center during manufacturing.  I ordered a Tight Steer unit, will see if it's practical to install.  It's intended to keep some pressure on the arm to keep the pin tightly in the worm.  The box will get filled with NLGI grade 00 semi-fluid grease - the consistency of apple sauce so it will self-level and keep the parts lubricated but not run out the seal.  Tractor Supply has it as "cotton picker spindle grease" at $5.29 a quart.

 

On the second box, some previous owner had laid down a layer of solder on the arc-shaped band of the cover where the back of the arm was supposed to slide against.  I assume it was intended to take out slop.

 

I am not going to worry about additional wear in the box as this car will never rack up lots of miles.  But, I would like to minimize the backlash.

 

The REALLY rusty Ross steering unit I did NOT use, except for the case itself, which got substantially machined.  The bearing balls were like grape nuts.

 

The single-pin arm in the rusty worm.  The smooth area towards the pin is where the arm slides against the cover.  The small round hole

in the arm is actually a 3/8" dia. x 3/8 deep cone, likely used for a lathe center.

 

A 2-pin Ross box (not mine!) with a smooth center point for an adjustment screw contact.  Nice worm!

 

The inside of the cover from the box I didn't use showing a thick solder layer to close up the slop.

The 3/16" thick steel plate was stamped about 0.040" deep so that only the unstamped arc rubbed against the arm.  

 

A TightSteer unit from Roger Siminoff.  It replaces an adjustment screw with a spring-loaded plunger.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Gary_Ash (see edit history)

[Gary_Ash]

18 minutes ago, Studeous said:

No experience with ross boxes but I do like the lace job on the regulator wire loom.....Is that period correct? Reminds me of lace jobs 

 on old and ancient western electric apparatus. Is that a stainless firewall? Nice work on the car.  I do enjoy your posts. Thank you.

 

See my thread on the Studebaker Indy car project in the Speedsters section of the forum.  The firewall is 1/4" aluminum plate.  All the wiring is laced "old school" style - easy to do, easy to change.