1940 Studebaker Commander Rear Engine Mounts

[cschnepf]

I've recently reinstalled my engine in my commander but I am thinking that I put the rear mounts on incorrectly.  The transmission is snug up against the body and the overdrive case mount on the back of the transmission has about a 1 inch gap when I look at putting that in.

 

Attached are some images of similar mounts.  The diagrams in the books were of little help here.  What I ended up doing was stacking the upper mount (right) on top of the lower mount (left).  These are on top of the cross member and the bell housing rests right on top of them.  The bolt to hold the rear or the engine in is definitely long enough that it needs both but it seems like it is too tall.

 

Do I not need the upper mount (this seems unlikely due to bolt length)?  What is the torque spec for these mounts?  Maybe I need to tighten it down more?  I went to 30 ft lbs but there was little to no change in the height of the rear or the engine.  Or maybe it is fine and after a little driving etc it will mush down and be fine?

 

Any help is appreciated!  Thanks!

 

[fh4ever]

here is mine ('39)...I assume it is the same... top of the crossmember...

 

 

 

 

and under the crossmember....

 

 

does yours have the overdrive?  If so, It will have an OD support crossmember.   

 

 

 

 

[Spinneyhill]

From memory (25+ years ago) the mounts shown in left hand photo go on top, in the cup. That shown in the RH photo goes underneath. The smaller diameter part seats in the hole in the cross member. I seem to remember the other side has a steel washer vulcanised into it; this is to seat the washer and nut.

 

Tightening torque: no spec.. 1939 shop manual says on p. 26 (you need this for the 1940 coz that one is a supplement of it) "A spacer is incorporated in the mounting which allows the hold down bolt to be tightened only to a predetermined point, thus maintaining proper tension on the rubber cushions." i.e. a little crush on it is all that is required. Maybe there is also a steel sleeve inside the lower cushion to limit compression.

 

By the way, the same system was used on Land Rovers at one stage. I have such dough-nuts in mine (i.e. pre-'90s Rovers).

 

I don't think fh4ever's is set up correctly. The parts above the castellated nuts should be up the other way, inside the cups sitting on the cross member.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Gary_Ash]

Yes, you need both the lower and upper parts, plus the interior steel tube in order for the vibration isolator to work correctly.  There should be a shallow cup on one of the crossmember or engine mount surfaces - the big donut goes in there with the steel ring centered by the cup.  The steel tube slides down the middle and the small donut goes on the opposite side of the engine mount.  There are usually large washers that go against the rubber surfaces before the nut goes on.  Tighten it down a little but don't squish the assembly flat - the rubber wants to be able to move.  Don't forget the cotter pin.

 

Those isolators were invented by Kurt Saurer, who worked for Firestone for many years, amassing more than 50 patents.  He was a Swiss guy whose family had the Saurer truck business that later merged with Mack.  Studebaker used the same rubber isolator in the pickup trucks using the 245 engine right up until 1960.  In some Studebaker vehicles, the positions of the parts were reversed, but the principle is the same.  The two rubber parts function to absorb vibration going up or down and the inner steel tube acts as damper.

 

Here's Kurt below.  Click on the PDF link below to see the patent description and diagrams.

 

 

 

Click the PDF link below this to see Kurt's patent for this isolator:

engine mount patent US1977896.pdf

 

 

Edited September 24, 2017 by Gary_Ash (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

Xclnt! Thank you Gary. So my memory is mostly sound on this one. That is fairly encouraging.

[cschnepf]

Thank you all!  This will solve my problem when I get back in the garage.

 

fh4ever:  Yes the 39 and 40s are near identical.  As SpinneyHill pointed out; the 39 shop manual is used for the 40.  I didn't think to look in it for this issue.  From what I can tell the major difference between the two years is the front suspension.  There is a 39 in a junkyard near me that I have already pilfered some parts from.  Also yes I have overdrive.  I have the support for that to install but it didn't seem correct since there was such a huge gap.

 

Thanks again,

 

Christian

[Spinneyhill]

The OD support should have a rubber cradle for the OD to sit in. I had to pack the cross member on mine down to get it to bolt up.

[Gary_Ash]

The 1936-37 cars and the early M5 trucks (1941-46) used Insulator, transmission case support #188262.  The 1938-39 cars show p/n 191884, but nothing is shown for 1940 cars (section E-10 in the 1928-40 parts catalog).  I put an early T86-1D overdrive transmission in my 1948 M5 truck, had to make the cross member and the support.  I bent the support out of flat bar and used Pliobond adhesive to attach the rubber to the support.  It's still in place after driving the truck for 13 years.

 

I'm not sure what they did for a support in 1940, but it's likely that the cross member and support were not really needed anyway.  Having 4 support points along the length of the transmission and overdrive unit doesn't really work.

 

Here is a drawing for the 188262 support and for the M5 crossmember.  I have no idea how the 191884 support is different, but one could always get the drawing from the Studebaker Museum.

Click on the PDF link below to see the part and how to make it.

 

 

188262_cradle_dwg.pdf

[Spinneyhill]

Yep. Mine looked like that. I also used a contact adhesive to stick on a hard rubber pad like that.

[fh4ever]

hey spinney, when you said mine doesnt quite look right, I had to go look again as my pic shows space above the lower rubber mount.   Now I see the problem...the rubber mounts have deteriorated, shrunk, and became permanently squashed.  They do have the metal sleeve tube, a large washer on the  bottom of the donut, and a large washer  (on top ) with a "boss" that fits into the crossmember hole.   That shiney area just above the rubber donut is the "boss" on the upper washer....you can actually slide the donut and washers up up and down the sleeve tube about 3mm.    The nut can't take up the play as it bottoms against the tube.   It should be set up correctly,  its just that the rubber has shrunk so much (probably the top donut too) and now it has all that play.   My memory has failed me...I had forgotten it was that bad but you can bet its now on my to do list.    Thanks for pointing that out. 

Gary..how do we go about getting drawings from the museum?  cost?  would it be best to ask the forum for a drawing first?  

 

[Gary_Ash]

I just posted some info about getting things from the Studebaker National Museum in the "Early 1920s Studebaker" thread here.  Your best bet is to find the correct part number in a Parts Catalog and email the museum to get a copy of the drawing.  They will send a paper copy in actual size to you but will not send a PDF or computer image file since search and copy fees serve to support the museum.  Since very few other car brands offer this service, it's a bargain at any price.  Always explain your purpose as they may have to drill down several levels (or go up a few levels) to get the info you need.  Frequently, there are drawings for raw castings, drawings of the machined part, and drawings of an assembly with several parts.

 

At the Studebaker National Museum, Andy Beckman is the archivist.  While he is an dedicated Studebaker guy, I don't think he actively monitors this forum.  However, he usually responds to email requests in a day or so.  His direct email is abeckman (at) studebakermuseum dot org.

 

Here is the page about services from the Archives.  They do have 70 tons of original Studebaker drawings for almost any part you can think of.

https://studebakermuseum.org/archives-and-education/about-the-archives/

[Cowtown Commander]

Gary - 

Thanks so much for all the information you provide.  I was able to find a overdrive transmission and installed that in my 38 Coupe never could find a transmission support - the Shrocks offer a rebuild service with your core but I didn't have a core so we made a homemade support but nothing as nice as the real thing.  

[Spinneyhill]

4 hours ago, fh4ever said:

 It should be set up correctly,  its just that the rubber has shrunk so much (probably the top donut too) and now it has all that play.   My memory has failed me...I had forgotten it was that bad but you can bet its now on my to do list.    Thanks for pointing that out. 

 

LoL! It didn't look right but I misinterpreted what I saw. Exclnt! It might be quieter with new rubber set up correctly in there, not transmitting vibration and noise to the frame.