Fixing the rattle in the clutch linkage

[Dennis Jones]

My car is a 1933 Chevrolet Master 5 Window Coupe

One thing leads to another.  It's got a rattle in the clutch pedal.  So now I'm pulling the clutch and throw-out bearing to check it out.  Seems its kind of like our newer cars.  You can't do anything until you disassemble the whole car.

 

I pulled the seat, the floor boards, the emergency brake lever, and the crossover rod for the mechanical brakes just to get the transmission out.

 

It's getting too hot in the garage to be working anymore today.

[F&J]

Wowee, she's a purdy looking gal..  I opened this thread up as I did not know if it was a question or not.  Carry on, nice we have new faces here on a daily basis.

 

I did my 29 chevy stuck clutch issue last summer, I pulled the engine to do it...which was easy with the way it was:  Radiator was alteady out, a donor headlight bar not picked up from provider friend named Kenny, mentioned on my other thread.

 

 

[Spinneyhill]

I had a rattle in the clutch once, but yours seems to be intact where mine was broken. One of the retainer springs on the throwout bearing had broken, allowing the bearing to rattle against the spring fingers. I could do nearly 30 mph in 4th gear and the same revs in any other gear before it rattled. So I drove it home about 100 miles with no clutch. It was tricky on a couple of steeper hills where we needed first gear. Of course I didn't know what the problem was until I pulled the engine and took off the cover (Morris 1800 ute). The flying bits of broken spring had bead blasted everything in there.

[Dennis Jones]

I While posting these pictures I just noticed that it looks like the bell housing has a crack extending from the ball support bolt hole.  I wonder if that could be the problem?  The ball support is what the clutch fork swivels on.  If the ball support starts vibrating after the engine is fully warmed up that could cause the clutch fork itself to rattle.  I wonder if a cast bell housing can even be reliably welded? will check in the morning to see if the ball is loose. Like I've said it only rattles after the engine is completely warmed up. I wonder if the bell housing expands the crack and the bolt

[Spinneyhill]

Is there any movement in the clutch fork ball mounting? There has to be movement for something to rattle! The crack, if present, could be a separate issue, not necessarily a problem.

 

How does the end of the pinion look where it goes into the flywheel bearing? Could there be movement there?

 

How is the front bearing in the gearbox? Mine rattles when the clutch is out when idling. Wrong clearance bearing I believe.

 

Otherwise you might have to remove the bell housing and look over the clutch and flywheel?

[Dennis Jones]

Spinneyhill.....My clutch pedal-clutch fork only rattles after the engine is completely warmed up.  I don't know if this crack in the bell housing is causing the rattle or not.  This crack extends out of the ball support for the clutch fork.  I'm thinking after the engine is completely warmed up this might allow the bolt hole to expand slightly which would allow the ball support to vibrate make the clutch fork/ clutch pedal to vibrate.  I wonder if this crack can even be welded successfully?  And it only rattles when I push the clutch pedal in or hold the clutch pedal to the floor.

 

[F&J]

3 hours ago, Dennis Jones said:

 I don't know if this crack in the bell housing is causing the rattle or not.  This crack extends out of the ball support for the clutch fork.  I'm thinking after the engine is completely warmed up this might allow the bolt hole to expand slightly which would allow the ball support to vibrate make the clutch fork/ clutch pedal to vibrate

 

No it cannot.  Often people overthink things, and this is one 

 

Keep taking it apart, you will find it, ....if the noise was really in the clutch area to begin with.  Rattles may be from another area, that sometimes get incorrect diagnosis.

 

There are perhaps 8 springs on the pressure plate, one could be broken, and there were three levers that move the plate, all can have a point of interest when apart. 

 

Yes, it can be welded, or furnace brazed, etc.  Chevy stuff is easy to find/ cheap in my area, and many other areas too,...I prefer good used parts, over welded parts.  Used part local purchase with no shipping cost,  will be far cheaper than a welding shop that does cast-iron repair "correctly"

[F&J]

Edit above... I think my 29 had 4 levers on the pressure plate, not three like I posted above.  .  I took pics of how all those parts fit together, how it comes apart, how to swap springs, how to use a cheap VW bug throw out bearing in place of the static carbon contact ring, instead of the $60 repro carbon, or aftermarket $100 bearing retro fit.  It's on a different PC though.

[Spinneyhill]

I'm with F&J. Put the crack aside for the moment and keep looking for movement.

 

So what changes when clutch pedal is depressed? The pinion is released as the pressure comes off the driven plate - could it be wobbling about in the pilot bearing? Could there be something broken in the clutch workings? Springs, fingers, etc.? Your throwout bearing looks like carbon so it is hard to imagine that rattling unless the mounting is loose.

 

Are you sure it is from that area? What is the clutch pedal pivoted on -  could vibration be transferred somewhere in those workings if they move when the pedal is pushed?

 

 

 

[Dennis Jones]

Thank you to everyone who is giving advice on this thread.  It is appreciated.  I didn't do anything with the car today.  It's now 7:00 pm and I just went out to the garage and did a little cleaning on what I thought was the crack.  It turns out there is no crack in the bell housing.  Don't know what that line was, but with some vigorous cleaning it came off.  So I'm back to digging into it to find the cause of the rattle.  Here is a picture of it after cleaning.

Dennis

[Dennis Jones]

Dennis Jones The throw out bearing is bad. It has a couple of grooves worn in it and a few chips broken out of it (it's a carbon bearing. Not like our modern ball bearing ones). And the inside diameter of the bearing is worn oblong.  Maybe the throw out bearing was wobbling because of the fork. The clutch fork has way too much play where it rides on the support ball. And the support ball also needs to be replaced. There is something called a throw out bearing support plate that fits between the throw out bearing and the pressure plate. It is what fits into the fingers of the pressure plate. I can't visually see it yet until I pull the clutch itself out. I'm sure it will need to be replaced also. Hopefully the clutch pressure plate and friction are OK. I think they will be. Because the clutch itself worked just fine. The rattle in the clutch linkage and pedal were the reason I tore it apart.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Dennis Jones (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

Xclnt. Now for solutions, but thoroughly check the clutch etc. while you are in there.

[Dennis Jones]

I do plan on pulling the clutch and checking it out.  I am especially interested in seeing how the clutch throw out bearing plate looks.  Since the throw-out bearing is shot I'm pretty sure the plate needs replacing also.

[F&J]

3 hours ago, Dennis Jones said:

 I am especially interested in seeing how the clutch throw out bearing plate looks.  

It is visible by looking in the bell opening.  Mine was rust pitted from sitting outdoors 50 years.   That pitting wears carbon , so I went with a true bearing, but I also had a good used clutch setup to use.

[Dennis Jones]

F&J....Here are a couple pictures of the clutch throw-out bearing plate.  It looks to me to be ok, but I am going to replace it while I have it apart.  I'm thinking this problem started because of my ball support.  It had a lot of play in it and it was an after market deal that doesn't look at all like the new one I have gotten from The Filling Station.  Also, it looks as though I am missing an inspection plate that fits on the top of the bell housing.  I have also posted a picture of the bell housing.  If anyone has one of these inspection plates and would like to sell it to me I would sure appreciate it.  If I can't find one I guess I will try making one.  The clutch itself looks ok.  And it did work just fine, so I'm going to resuse the clutch.  Can't afford a new one at this time.

 

[F&J]

15 minutes ago, Dennis Jones said:

clutch throw-out bearing plate.

The surface looks uneven where the carbon rides on.  It seems to have one side (180 degrees of circle) that is getting most wear.

 

That is internet pic and I have been mislead before, as to what things really look like in person

 

If it really appears like I said, :  ....when you install the new one, you should rotate the engine with sparkplugs out, to see if the new surface runs perfectly true, not wobble.  If there was a wobble motion, it will wear the carbon, and could also be some vibration in pedal, either on a light touch, or fully pushed to floor.

 

all I am suggesting, is always test things before putting it back together.

 

I don't know for sure if I can get a picture of the missing cover or not.  It is dark/raining here, so in the AM I will see.

[Dennis Jones]

F&J.....I agree with what you say about the uneven surface where it would ride against the throw-out bearing.  That is a good idea about rotating the engine.  I will do that before putting it back together.  I am just waiting on parts from the The Filling Station.  

[F&J]

13 hours ago, Dennis Jones said:

 That is a good idea about rotating the engine.

Quick post and pics from just now, on a very busy day...

 

If that "ring" is not running perfectly "true", it might be the cause of your worn fork, AND might be the primary cause, and result, which is your rattle .  Note the "IF"

 

I dug some junk 29 parts out to try to recall if there is an adjustment that levels out the levers that keep the ring true, like most all later decades have.... I still don't know for certain, as I have not found all? the pieces?  Not sure on that either, but there are none I see here.  I kind of think the ring is not "mechanically connected" to the fingers?  Can you tell me?  I just don't recall right now.

 

Besides the iffy look of your ring that makes me wonder if it does wobble, is the very unusual look to your previous pic of wear you said on the TOB and it's collar.  I just could not comment as I have none to compare it with here, nor recall much of a job 6-8 months ago.

 

We need to really dig deeper when "if" the new ring installed, still has a wobble, or if it differs from how I first thought it contacts the pressure plate, ....we'd still want the ring to sit nice to the carbon..  Like I said, I'm very busy till I finish a guys big job this 3 day weekend.. but I will check in here, at eves...

Edited May 27, 2017 by F&J (see edit history)