Pre-teardown, what to do while it's running????

[John_Mc]

      Guys, I'm about to begin the removal, rebuild and re-installation of my V-12 installed in my 1937 Zephyr.   My main questions are:

     

      1)   What tests should I run, besides compression, should I perform now that it's in running condition?

     

      2)   Are there any removal / teardown tips that anyone might suggest?

     

      3)  The clutch and transmission appear fine, but what should I change in the transmission once the engine has been removed?

     

      4)  What nods to modern engineering should I take advantage of in the rebuild??

     

      5)  How far can I tear it down with conventional tools??

      

      6)  Can you recommend a good (and reasonable) shop in the Midwest who would be willing to work with me on the reassembly?  I want

           excellent results, but cost containment here is important.  I'm not interested in giving the engine to someone who tells me he is so busy

           and so great, but he will try to fit me in. 

 

       Thanks to all, I intend to photo document the whole process so others might learn something too.  Thank you for all responses.

[19tom40]

John, I don't know any machine shop that will work with you on the re-assembly. Either they do the assembly or you do it. I suggest that you have them do it, so that they have to warrant their workmanship.

 

Built-Rite Engine Rebuilders

4 reviews

 · Engine Rebuilding Service

958 N Du Page Ave

(630) 629-4021

 

Has a lot of Ford flathead experience, but like any job shop, will put your engine behind its regular customers. You are a one time buyer and its regular customers are its bread and butter. I thought that you found a rebuilder in WI.

 

I would not modify the engine with the 8BA style valves, solid lifters or the Melling high volume pump that everyone says you need. You will not be driving the car for long distances at high speeds, so you really don't need these modifications. Your engine was supposed to have a recent rebuild before you bought it, so most of the parts should be in good condition.

 

The only special tool that you need for the tear down is the valve removal bar. An engine stand with an adapter to hold the engine by the exhaust ports will make the job easier. I have an engine sling and valve removal bar that you can borrow.

 

You do not need to perform any tests before teardown. Once it is at the machine shop, they will measure the parts and let you know which ones are out of tolerance and need to be machined or replaced.

 

Because it is such a pain to service the clutch, I would send the disc and pressure plate to Fort Wayne Clutch and have them rebuild it for you.

 

You can call me anytime that you would like to discuss anything that I have said.

[John_Mc]

Thanks Tom, great information.  When I wrote that I wanted the machine shop to work with me, I meant that the shop would be OK with me doing the re-assembly.  Yes I do have a guy out of Madison WI who is supposed to be very good, just checking out some others as well. 

 

I did find a fellow out of St. Louis who has an V-12 adapter to hold the engine on a standard stand.  Your offer of use of a sling is appreciated, I might take you up on that.  I'm eager to get started on this and your printed info you gave me on removing the V-12 will be very helpful.

 

Thank you again Tom, I will be in touch.  I'll have to look for that valve removal tool, seem to me like I saw one on Ebay not long ago.

Edited November 17, 2015 by John_Mc (see edit history)

[DSpringer]

I did the 8BA valve conversion to try to stem oil use and it made a bit of a difference but not as much as I hoped. But since you are pulling the valves anyway it might be a good idea, especially if you have any burnt ones. But if you want some original NOS split guides and valves, I've got 'em.  I found the K-D 918 valve guide puller to be very useful for removing and replacing valve springs, but fortunately the guides were not stuck and I didn't need it to pop out the valves. If the guides are really stuck about all you can do is use a cold chisel and sledge to break them off, pry out the springs, and pound the guides down into the valve galley. Flathead Jack might have a puller that can be used to pull stubborn valves and guides, but only if you can get the horseshoe keepers out first, which requires that the guides be loose enough to move. I didn't have much success with the hook-shaped K-D 917 to remove the keepers because it would usually just slice through the keepers before they would come out. 

 

If you do install 8BA valves be sure to get the o-ring type valve guide seals for the intakes. The square ones get torn up a bit when you install them. If you have any tappet noise to start with you should test your lifters. You can buy new ones on Ebay for not that much.

 

After pulling the pan I found I already had a Melling M-15 pump but I still only get about 20 PSI - might be a weak relief valve in the valve galley.  You might consider turning down the crank at the slinger ring and putting in a rope seal. I didn't and have a continual oil drip. I guess that's what that cotter pin is for in the bottom of the bell housing.

 

If you remove the plugs in the crank oil journals to clean it you should pay special attention to replacing them so they're really tight. Spent last weekend under the car pulling the pan and knocking two of those boogers back in. Second time. Hope they stay this time. 

 

Make sure you install a new Felpro gasket with the large openings for the water passage, and have Sklip Haney rebuild your water pumps to keep you running cool. 

 

Keep us up to date with your progress.

[abelincoln]

John:

Consider having your shop grind the oil slinger so you can use a Ford two piece rear seal and retainer.  Otherwise oil runs out if you park uphill.  I used a one piece front seal too.  If you don't have a two speed rear axle, consider finding an overdrive trans and torque tube.  If you are not afraid of newer stuff, you can find a T5 five speed from an S-10 truck pretty readily.  The S-10 has the shift lever about where you want it.  You'll then need to convert to open driveshaft and new radius rods to attach to the X member as the torque tube will be gone.  Speedway has adapters.  Another consideration is converting to full flow oil filter.  If you regrind cam for solid lifters, plug passage to hydraulic lifters, and drill 1/16" holes through the front oil regulator to cam and in end to lube timing chain.  If I didn't have too much gunk in the valley that would burn, I'd take a cutting torch to valve springs to pull stuck guides.  Maybe a cut-off wheel would work.  Egge has all the good parts.

Abe

[19tom40]

John, I have the valve removal bar. If you were not lied to about the rebuild, your guides should not be stuck in the block. They will be difficult to pull down to remove the keepers, but it will not take long to get the knack of it. If they are stuck, the best way to remove them is to break or cut the heads off and drive the guide down to release the keeper.

 

Most machine shops would be glad to just do the machining, but I don't know of any that will warranty the engine, if you do the assembly.

 

I am not a fan of Egge pistons. I had 4 of them hitting the heads after just a few miles  of running. I am not the only one that had that problem. It seems that their quality control is not as good as it was in the last century.

 

The 8BA type of valve is more likely to stick than the split guide type used originally. I don't know if they will work well with the hydraulic valve lifters.

 

Replacing the rear oil slinger with the rope seal will help with oil leaks and the one piece front seal is almost a requirement, because the cost is so low compared to the benefit.

[John_Mc]

Thanks to all for the valuable input!  Tom, I will take you up on the valve removal tool and I will keep you all up to date on results.

Need to get this done so I can DRIVE this Zephyr next summer!

[19tom40]

John, I know that you will drive your Zephyr next summer and enjoy the driving. I don't own a trailer and have driven my 40 Mercury more than 10,000 miles since 2004 when I finished the last restoration, and over 90,000 since I have owned it. I drove my other one another 10,000 miles over 20 years.

 

I don't worry about burning a little oil, if I have to add a quart every 500 miles, that is only once or twice a summer. I don't like oil leaks as I have to clean them from my driveway and garage floor, as well as clean the mess from the bottom of the car. But Ford engineers seemed to be able to thwart all of my efforts as the car seems determined to mark it's territory. The latest leak is from the water pump bushings.

 

My other car had the 8BA valves and every spring, I would have to pour some MMO down the carburetor and add it to the oil and gas to free the valves. After killing all of the mosquitoes in a 1/2 mile radius and making all of my neighbors complain about having to close their windows in the nice weather, they would free up and stay that way if I ran the engine twice a month.. It did get much better after 5,000 miles and the next owner didn't have the problem.

 

My point is unless you are going to drive more than a couple of thousand miles a year, and do most of your driving at speeds of 55mph and above, you don't need to make a lot of modern improvements to the running gear.

[John_Mc]

Points well taken Tom.  This car will be a casual driver, rarely exceeding 50 mph and probably driven under 500 - 1,000 miles per year.  If it burns a little oil, I'm fine with that, actually adds a little charm to the old girl.