A mass produced Pierce Arrow?

[58L-Y8]

Paul,  Thanks for the kudos for my bridging strategy, something had to stem the freefall to create the situation that would allow the cars you've described and designed. They looks magnificent, what a shame no one had the vision as the time!

 

"What we don’t know is whether a fourth category - expensive fine cars with excellent craftsmanship, new-school engineering and advanced styling (such as the proposed Pierce-Arrow) would have sold well. We can't know because none ever existed."

 

At $3,000 and above, nothing was ever created specifically that would fulfill all those qualities described in one car. From their lack of action in that direction, one can infur the Pierce-Arrow management hadn't the vision or imagination to create such a car from the time they took over control from Studebaker. But, not to indict them too harshly, neither did any of the principals of the relatively financially healthier luxury car makers either. Packard would have been the most like candid to try, but the mindset had changed: if it wasn't mass-production, it wasn't worth the expense or bother.

 

With Pierce-Arrow and ACD defunct, Packard settled for the few coachbuilt semi-custom formal styles and Darrrin customs to serve whatever demand arose. Cadillac, after the flathead Sixteen died, contented itself with a few Fleetwood formals on the 75, allowed a handful of cars to Derham and Bohman & Schwartz. Edsel Ford kept Brunn building Zephyr-chassis town cars for family and associates; the Continental really his preferred project. The '41-'42 Lincoln Custom lwb cars seem an almost an afterthought, created to hold onto the few K owners loyal to Lincoln. The Chrysler Crown Imperial was a pale effort, though Derham based a few worthwhile efforts on that late pre-war chassis.

[Mahoning63]

Steve - thanks in kind for your approval. The '36 club sedan next to the work-up was for all intents and purposes a 3-box sedan, of questionable appearance but 3-box nonetheless. So Pierce was not unaware of the market's preference for large trunks and close-coupled seating. All it really needed to do was copy from several sources... Cord for loweness and no running boards, Packard for fender skirts (for those who appreciate them), maybe Duesenberg Twenty Grand or Packard senior 5 pass coupe for integral decklid. And Zephyr for unibody.

 

Speaking of 3-box fine cars, or lack thereof, let's not forget the '41 Cadillac Duchess one-off, which was unquestionably Pierce-like in quality. One could also throw in the '42 Packard Clipper One Eighty though it was a bit stubby like the 60 Special.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Mahoning63 (see edit history)

[Mahoning63]

Just having a little fun here... visualizing Pierce in total copy-cat mode throughout 1937 trying to create its version of the Cord 810. Far right image is the actual Cord on 125 inch wheelbase. Middle image is a mod that depicts it in the 1937 long wheelbase configuration minus the bustleback trunk that came standard. In studying several images of this longer, taller Cord it appears they added an 8th horizontal louver to the hood, increasing the height 1-1/2 inches. I think they also raised the doors same amount, creating a taller sill. Pierce greenhouse is looking pretty mundane compared to the racy Cord, would have been a motivator to make more happen there. 

 

Overall this aerodynamic 2-box body style, while balanced and exciting, was not what the market was choosing in these years, instead accepting ugly bustle back trunks clumsily grafted onto the rear by most OEMs. Packard's 120 sold both styles and ugly one, by 1938 the slant back gone. GM held on longer, helping the body style along in the 1940s by increasing rear overhang to make the slant faster and increase trunk capacity. 

 

So we get back to the 3-box suggestion. Cord's 2-door Phaeton had a nice, if not large, integral trunk. Would have been another hint for Pierce as it scrambled to save itself.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Mahoning63 (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

Paul - You've nailed it, the '41 Cadillac "The Duchess" is exactly the configuration and content Pierce-Arrows should have been from the mid-'30's on. The '41 Packard 180 LeBaron Sport Brougham was also the correct configuration for their would-have-been late pre-war cars. Bringing that in for $3,000 possibly was in their capability.....well, maybe not quite as lavishly in accoutrements as "The Duchess".

 

It must have caused no small amount of consternation during 1936-37 in the P-A front offices while they watched the excitement and, what would have been for them, good sales volume generated by "that upstart fwd Cord!". Rather than grouse about people spending good money on a car with no reputation, ordinary build quality, unproven mechanicals by a shaky company, they should have analyzed its appeal then quickly set about creating their own 1937 version to grab a piece of that market. Standing pat for the 1937 car lines sure didn't work, nor did diversion into travel trailers.

 

When those first streamlined explorations took place in 1933-34, the fastback, so unlike the undercut shape of sedans up to that point, were the very soul of modernity. Through integrated, their trunks were limited by the sweeping shape, didn't fully affording the function expected. As the trunk and its rack hanging off the rear was replaced with a crudely-appended bustle trunk, it fulfilled the function without a pleasing form. The '36 close-coupled club sedan and large bustle-like trunk was a nascent 3-box sedan, waiting to be integrated and refined. If their designers could have conceived the vision, drew inspiration from the Cord, presented the concept to management, who then ran with it for 1937, it well could have been the beginings of their revival. Had they been able to conceive of it thin, chromed window frames, it could have a real knockout.

Edited November 9, 2015 by 58L-Y8 (see edit history)

[Mahoning63]

Hi Steve,

 

Thought you would like the Duchess connection... a car that proved that at least some in the wealthy class found mass-produced Cadillacs of the day lacking. Nor has Cadillac ever figured out, from the Forties to present, how to make a Pierce-quality car profitably. The ’57 Eldorado Brougham was probably the best example of this inability.  Great car, even greater money loser.

 

Good point about the greenhouse. We know Bill Mitchell got his window and roof nspiration for the original 60 Special (and later the ’41 Duchess and ’42 60 Special) from the ’34 Panhard Panoramique. If it was available to him it was available to Pierce.

 

The proud Buffalo company came to a fork in the road in the mid-Thirties. Either continue its low volume, craft production ways and focus on making the most advanced (including styling) and expensive car on the road, or shift to mass production and accept heavy tooling investments, compromised designs and need for ever greater sales volume. Packard chose the latter and bungled the play time and again, eventually leading to its demise.

 

A middle alternative… buying stampings from large OEMs (from those willing to sell) and building bodies with more care and labor content than the competition… has always had appeal, but every time I have tried to work up a Pierce design based on a pre- or post-war Studebaker, Lincoln, Chrysler, Nash or Hudson the result has always been compromised by the deficiencies of the donor car.

 

Which leads me back to Pierce going it alone as a craft producer. I think it might have survived as such but only if put out the best car money could buy and do so as efficiently as possible. And best needed to include everything – quality, durability, comfort, power, craftsmanship, technology and of course, styling. In the mid-Thirties the company’s leadership was simply not up to this task.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Mahoning63 (see edit history)

[Mahoning63]

My earlier comments left out (at least) one possibility... the opportunity to adopt mass production and create stellar designs, the latter something Packard found to be hit-or-miss in 1935-56. The big difference between Packard and Pierce-Arrow in 1933-34 was that Packard was sitting on millions in cash that it had earned in the Twenties while Pierce had practically nothing. This meant that Packard could self-fund its $6M gamble into the mid-priced field while Pierce had to borrow, which would not have been an easy sell to investors until Packard proved it could work. Problem was, by then Pierce was all but finished.

 

bkazmer said earlier that whatever market Pierce competed in it had to expect less market share than Packard and Cadillac. I largely agree, certainly in the mid-priced and entry luxury segments. In the upper segments the situation may have been different, the old money perhaps recallng that 20 years earlier it was Pierce that sometimes outsold Packard and always with a more expensive car. Back then Pierce occupied the top rung. This natural resting place together with the $2-3M that Studebaker had just invested in Pierce's plant suggests that the company may have had a different opportunity than Packard.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Mahoning63 (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

Pierce needed a partner like Studebaker except Studebaker was on the ropes in the depression. If they hadn't been we might have seen a lower priced Pierce and both makes might still be around.

[8E45E]

A middle alternative… buying stampings from large OEMs (from those willing to sell) and building bodies with more care and labor content than the competition… has always had appeal, but every time I have tried to work up a Pierce design based on a pre- or post-war Studebaker, Lincoln, Chrysler, Nash or Hudson the result has always been compromised by the deficiencies of the donor car.

 

Funny, as Richard Teague's last-ditch attempt at producing a 'real' Packard in Detroit was to buy the 1956 Lincoln body stampings from Ford and add some familiar Packard design cues.  And there exists a concept drawing of a Pierce Arrow in Packard clothing at the Studebaker National Museum (post #11 here) http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?86524-New-TW-don-t-read-unless-you-have-Feb-s-already

 

Just before the war, Graham and Hupmobile already tried that with the Cord body, and it still didn't keep them viable in the automobile industry.

 

As far as postwar Cadillacs go, I still say the 1966 Fleetwood Brougham was the closest one got to matching the opulence of pre-war Cadillacs, Packards, Duesenbergs, and Pierce Arrows from the 1930's.  The 1957 Eldorado Brougham would be better compared to the Silver Arrow.

 

Craig

Edited November 12, 2015 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[Mahoning63]

There was also Virgil Exner's Revival cars including this '66 Pierce-Arrow. A very interesting design although with same poor rear window as the '33 show car.

 

http://www.drivehq.com/file/df.aspx/publish/tonhazelaar/wwwhome/Renwal_Kits/Renwal_Pierce-size.jpg

 

 

And this monstrous thing.

 

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2010/06/27/sia-flashback-pierce-arrow-ii-a-dream-that-went-nowhere/

Edited November 11, 2015 by Mahoning63 (see edit history)

[Mahoning63]

There were also Bill Mitchell's two Buick show cars named after the grand old marque.

 

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z15603/Buick-Riviera-Silver-Arrow-I.aspx

 

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/default.aspx?i=10&modelID=2631&carID=15604#menu

[Mahoning63]

When I try to imagine what a Pierce-Arrow might have looked like in the Sixties the second gen Riviera comes to mind, particularly the side and rear styling of the '70. One can see how Pierce might have set itself apart from Cadillac, Lincoln and Imperial... and Mercedes, Bentley and Rolls-Royce... by dialing in more style at the expense of trunk space, and up front adding some mystery such as '70 Riv's sharp-edged grill set into a narrower front clip with hidden headlights. Exner had it right with his Revival's delicate rear bumpers and slender body lines. Another car that comes to mind is the '68 Olds Cultass, particularly the coupe. Also the concurrent LeMans. Both would need scaled to slightly larger size befitting a Pierce.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Mahoning63 (see edit history)

[Guest AlCapone]

When I try to imagine what a Pierce-Arrow might have looked like in the Sixties the second gen Riviera comes to mind, particularly the side and rear styling of the '70. One can see how Pierce might have set itself apart from Cadillac, Lincoln and Imperial... and Mercedes, Bentley and Rolls-Royce... by dialing in more style at the expense of trunk space, and up front adding some mystery such as '70 Riv's sharp-edged grill set into a narrower front clip with hidden headlights. Exner had it right with his delicate bumper design and slender lines. Another car that comes to mind is the '68 Olds Cultass, particularly the coupe. Also the concurrent LeMans. Both would need scaled to slightly larger size befitting a Pierce.

29 posts by one person on a single thread must be a record! You must be the all time greatest Pierce Arrow fan! Wayne

[Mahoning63]

Let's make in an even 30 !!! 

[Mahoning63]

Oh no... ideas still trickling in!  Taking Steve's suggestion to borrow elements of a mass-produced vehicle and make significant rather than minor changes, and looking ahead at post-war environment, probably George Mason of Nash would have been the only exec willing to entertain a partnership. Nash's bathtubs would not have impressed Pierce much but the 1952 redesign would have shown promise. Let's stay a deal was struck, Nash either building Pierce's 1952 bodies in white and shipping "a substantial amount of air" as Packard surmised, or shipping panels nested. Pierce, in turn, would focus its R&D on engines and an automatic transmission, launching new OHV V8s for Nash and V12s for Pierce to power the new cars. The eventual AMC 250 and 327 V8s show how a Pierce line-up might have looked, with base V12 of 375 CID / 285 HP and uplevel V12 with 490 CID / 380 HP. Styling wise lots of opportunity for Pierce to improve on Nash's Pininfarina-inspired design to make a car competitive in size with 60 Special. 1957 would have seen a complete redesign and now with Hudson. Perhaps Pierce could have also fielded a smaller luxury car based on '58 Rambler Ambassador to begin doing battle with Mercedes. 

 

In images note the change in C-pillar to give a completely different look even though Nash and Pierce roofs would have come from same stamping. Also the old trick of front doors reversed as rear doors to tie into the new C-pillar. Investment efficiency would have continued to be key to Pierce's survival.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Mahoning63 (see edit history)