65 Riv.GS, What to do?

[Guest Broomer]

I bought a 65 Baby Grand Sport from the original owners wife. It set in a barn for 23 years.

She called me to see if I would be interested because I knew her husband and know the car.

She also knows that I get interesting cars and bring them back to the most appropriate state of

repair and then sell them. Many on this forum unaffectionatly call this "flipping".

The car is completely original except for radials on the stock chrome wheels. The car is dirty

and 99% rust free. It looks like it should be repainted because of roof creasote dripped on it years

ago during storage. I did all the proper start up procedures, replaced the fuel pump which leaked

and the master cylinder which leaked. I kept both parts because they are rebuildable. With a new set of points and condensor it started right up. The exhaust system is in good shape except from the

exhaust manifolds to the muffler.

This is a real time capsule even down to the time slips from when he drag raced the Rivi in "65.

His best time in D/Stock Auto was 13.40 sec. Not bad for a heavy car like this. He didn't drive it very

much because he was a truck driver and was'nt home much. He ordered it without air conditioning or

power seats, power windows etc. because he wanted to keep the weight down

My question is and what I want feed back on is should I keep this as a "survivor time capsule" and

if I do, what do I do? The engine and compartment are far from clean. Should it be scrubbed and painted?

The undercarriage was heavily undercoated and now it is dried and peeling. Should I strip it and lightly

undercoat it? The interior, though not worn at all, needs a thorough cleaning which I am going to do.

As a survivor should I rub the old paint out real well and give it a good waxing or leave it ratty and

just wash it. Even rubbed out the paint will only be about a 3 out of 10 because of the staining, but what I understand is old paint is acceptable and even preferred as a survivor.

To have the car really nice without a frame off, it needs the undercarriage really cleaned up and a

good paint job factory color (Lite Blue). It has deluxe blue interior. The Rivi only has 38,000 miles on it and

all components show little wear. Because I'm a "flipper" as a living, I think I will clean it up minimally and drive

it to Lexington in June. When I am there I hope to get input from those that attend the meet and see if I

can learn what to do for a true "survivor" or I will sell it there. Until then I don't want to do anything that would eliminate it as a survivor. Thats why I would appreciate any advise that would allow me to proceed with the cleanup with out ruining it as a time capsule.

Right now I am redueing an '02 Z-28 to flip in the spring, so I have plenty to do. But really any help I

can get from you experts will be greatly appreciated!

Thanx, Broomer

[Paul from PA]

give me a call and let me buy it the way it is. I am sure you don't have whole lot in it and if you can make a buck quick with a minimum of work that is the way to go. I am outsideof Kittanning PA and not far from you 724-397-9224 or 724-354-2400 Paul

[lrlforfun]

OK Broomer: A couple of things here. For the right price it's gone in 65 seconds and.......because I'm a big baby, could you post some pictures. It sounds like you want to play with it before it goes down the road. Oh, if you're a flipper you already know what to do.......right? Mitch

[1965rivgs]

Broomer,

Congrats on an excellent and timely find. Prices have finally been rising after years of slow but steady growth and there is finally a premium being placed on the Gran Sport models.

Also trending upward are the values of "survivor" type collector cars.

I have always placed a premium on original cars because I cut my teeth in the Chevy world where at any given major show one can find a dozen "new" `57 Chevy converts, Camaros or Chevelles. I was steered toward Buick, Olds and Pontiac full size cars because when one ran across a nice car, it was a nice ORIGINAL car. There were no reproduction parts available, only NOS, which were hard to find. It seems collectors are now placing a premium on these types of cars for obvious and numerous reasons.

Especially because your intentions from the start are to resell your Riv, I would strongly suggest cleaning and scrubbing the hell out of the car while working out the operational bugs, all the while employing minimally invasive techniques. In doing so you will have fun learning about the car and enjoy some driving, watch the "original junker to original jewel" transition that to me is my favorite aspect of collecting old cars, and leave the decisions regarding originality vs restoration to its eventual owner while maximizing your profit margin. Just my two cents....good luck, love to see the transition,

Tom Mooney

[Guest Broomer]

Hi Mitch,

I do flip cars and if this was a chevy, pontiac, ford I would no what to do. But I have NEVER redone a Buick or any other car to be a survivor.

What i have noticed is how deligent most people on this forum are while restoring these Gran Sports. Many want frame offs or at least to replace every part that isn't up to par with an exact aftermarket part. I can do that all day long. What I am asking is do I approach this redue as a survivor and if so how? I know that the "survivor classification" is a fairly new way to put a car back into circulation and if any one on this forum can help with this. These '65 Super Wildcats are rare and coming into their own. This car is COMPLETE and a good source for knowing how the GS is best brought back to original. I hope this will help you understand my motives.

Thanx, Broomer

[Guest Broomer]

Hi Tom, Thank you for the direction. I really value YOUR opinion.

Broomer

[Guest Rob J]

How about some pics of the car, and your asking price. If it is what you say it is, this would be the right bunch here for it. I personally would rather purchase a car as you've mentioned as is with you doing nothing to it. Don't even clean it.

As you can tell, I may be a prospective buyer. Awaiting further information.

Rob.

[JZRIV]

Hi Broomer,

Get the mechanicals in shape so the car is reasonably reliable. In addition to what you mentioned replace all rubber fuel hoses, the water pump and all wheel cylinders and brake hoses. If the exhaust is intact and still attached everywhere with only a few small holes not majorly affecting sound leave as-is. If it blown apart or rusted and hanging I'd replace that. From there clean up and detail it as-is. As for the peeling undercoating, thats a major job to remove and I'd leave as-is for flipping purposes. The cars did come with some undercoating from the factory such as a heavy coating in the wheel weels and limited application here and there but not anywhere near an overall coating. Many who restore remove dealer or aftermarket applied undercoating. Due to the labor required to remove undercoating and the result of a freshening up the appearance of the undercarriage compared to the rest of the car, I would leave as-is for flipping purposes.

Paint is the same thing. Leave as-is and let the new owner choose the color and quality or left as-is. Most will choose to repaint it based on the current condition as the traditional Riviera enthusiast is slow to accept the new trend of the worse it looks the better. With high quality paint jobs running $10k to $20k these days you don't want to go anywhere near that (if flipping) and it would be injustice to do a cheap paint.

Please bring it to Lexington. If you join ROA, you can register for the meet and put the car in a car corral with a For Sale sign on it. Sometimes there aren't but one or two cars for sale so there may not be an official "corral" but as a member you will get a special parking spot on or beside the show field on show day when the biggest crowd is there for highest visibility. Also by joining you can mingle easier, attend the technical Q&A seminar, have full access to the hospitality room, etc. If you choose not to join, certainly please still bring the car and park it in the hotel parking lot. You have a special car and after attending a meet, you might just decide to keep it.

Edited January 19, 2013 by JZRIV (see edit history)

[JZRIV]

Hi Mitch,

I do flip cars and if this was a chevy, pontiac, ford I would no what to do. But I have NEVER redone a Buick or any other car to be a survivor.

What i have noticed is how deligent most people on this forum are while restoring these Gran Sports. Many want frame offs or at least to replace every part that isn't up to par with an exact aftermarket part. I can do that all day long. What I am asking is do I approach this redue as a survivor and if so how? I know that the "survivor classification" is a fairly new way to put a car back into circulation and if any one on this forum can help with this. These '65 Super Wildcats are rare and coming into their own. This car is COMPLETE and a good source for knowing how the GS is best brought back to original. I hope this will help you understand my motives.

Thanx, Broomer

The 65 GS cars we see that bring the most money have been professionally restored. Certainly though an very-good to excellent untouched original kept in top mechanical condition and stored a climate controled or well sealed dry environment would bring similar money but those are rare as hens teeth so what we see most selling is restored cars. Having said that, it can be very expensive to restore a GS Riviera vs a mainstream classic like a Camaro or 55 Chevy though your car being what it is probably wouldn't be as costly as average but many factors on condition need to determine that. For us to make specific suggestions without first clearly understanding the condition inside and out with detailed pictures will just be speculation.

"Generally speaking" options and color combination can be a significant factor on market value when it comes to a Riv GS. Eye popping colors and well equipped cars tend make those with deep pockets dig deeper. Of course when you have a low mileage documented car that can alone take precedence over other things. People who know Rivieras well typically understand the costs of restoration and will factor that in to the purchase price of a car. For example even though your car has low mileage, since it sat for years it will likely need a full going through including pulling the engine for inspection and refreshing (especially since it was raced) servicing the tranny, most suspension rubber parts, motor and tranny mounts will be deteriorated, rear axle servicing, and the list goes on and on. If you can do alot of work yourself on a car like the 65 GS, generally you can come out ahead because of the labor savings and maketability of the car. It sounds like you are no greenhorn to this but be patient and take your time to educate yourself on the Buick. Its amazing what taking a few months to evaluate and develop a plan can do to help your success.

Edited January 19, 2013 by JZRIV (see edit history)

[lrlforfun]

OK Boomer: So exactly what is your goal? To make a profit? To play with it? Both? My take? If it's to make a profit flip it asap and take the quick nickle rather than the slow dime. If it's to play with it it's no different than any other Chev, Ford Plym or almost anything. Clean it up, keep it an honest car, have your fun and give it the boot down the road. The hand full of 65 Riv GS cars that sold for big $$$$ were just that, a handful. Also, if you sold it quickly and left a few bucks on the table, forget about beating your self up for making a mistake. Take the dough and get something else. Remember.......

The money is made in the BUY. It's collected in the SELL. The amount you make is determined in the amount of turnover. How do I know this? I was a used car dealer for several years. Mitch

[Guest Broomer]

Thanx everyone,

Your suggestions are a real help. I've decided to do as Tom and Jason suggested and clean tha heck out of it, replace all safty related parts and make sure that it is running tops. I really appreciate everyones comments and will be happy to meet as many of you as possible at Lexington. Once I have it ready I may run it down to Jason (with your permission) and get a critical analyisis of the Rivi. I am a member of ROA and really enjoy the magazine they send every couple of months.

Broomer

[1965rivgs]

Broomer,

Feel free to give me a call if you have any questions. I know the `65 GS cars pretty well. My contact info is in The Riview. Great to hear you are already a member,

Tom Mooney

P.S. If the fuel pump you have already removed from the car is original it should be assembled with fasteners, painted green and rebuildable. If so, find a kit and rebuild it for a spare or re-install it and use the replacment as a spare, especially if you intend on doing some driving. It will take up little room in the trunk.

[Guest Broomer]

Hi Tom,

I replaced the fuel pump and the master cylinder which were original equipment. I am saving them both for rebuild. The fuel pump has the small bolt heads on the top and it still has some original green paint on it.

Broomer

[Guest slacker1965]

I bought a 65 Baby Grand Sport from the original owners wife. It set in a barn for 23 years.

She called me to see if I would be interested because I knew her husband and know the car.

She also knows that I get interesting cars and bring them back to the most appropriate state of

repair and then sell them. Many on this forum unaffectionatly call this "flipping".

The car is completely original except for radials on the stock chrome wheels. The car is dirty

and 99% rust free. It looks like it should be repainted because of roof creasote dripped on it years

ago during storage. I did all the proper start up procedures, replaced the fuel pump which leaked

and the master cylinder which leaked. I kept both parts because they are rebuildable. With a new set of points and condensor it started right up. The exhaust system is in good shape except from the

exhaust manifolds to the muffler.

This is a real time capsule even down to the time slips from when he drag raced the Rivi in "65.

His best time in D/Stock Auto was 13.40 sec. Not bad for a heavy car like this. He didn't drive it very

much because he was a truck driver and was'nt home much. He ordered it without air conditioning or

power seats, power windows etc. because he wanted to keep the weight down

My question is and what I want feed back on is should I keep this as a "survivor time capsule" and

if I do, what do I do? The engine and compartment are far from clean. Should it be scrubbed and painted?

The undercarriage was heavily undercoated and now it is dried and peeling. Should I strip it and lightly

undercoat it? The interior, though not worn at all, needs a thorough cleaning which I am going to do.

As a survivor should I rub the old paint out real well and give it a good waxing or leave it ratty and

just wash it. Even rubbed out the paint will only be about a 3 out of 10 because of the staining, but what I understand is old paint is acceptable and even preferred as a survivor.

To have the car really nice without a frame off, it needs the undercarriage really cleaned up and a

good paint job factory color (Lite Blue). It has deluxe blue interior. The Rivi only has 38,000 miles on it and

all components show little wear. Because I'm a "flipper" as a living, I think I will clean it up minimally and drive

it to Lexington in June. When I am there I hope to get input from those that attend the meet and see if I

can learn what to do for a true "survivor" or I will sell it there. Until then I don't want to do anything that would eliminate it as a survivor. Thats why I would appreciate any advise that would allow me to proceed with the cleanup with out ruining it as a time capsule.

Right now I am redueing an '02 Z-28 to flip in the spring, so I have plenty to do. But really any help I

can get from you experts will be greatly appreciated!

Thanx, Broomer

broomer,

as dale walkster(wheels thru time motorcycle museum)said 'they are only original once, they can be re-restored many times'. so yeah, I'd wash everything up and leave it at that. enjoy your turn at ownership/stewardship & pls share pix.

[Guest Broomer]

Thanx for the advice Kevin, My problem now is, what if I become too attached to the Rivi while I am enjoying my stewardship. I guess I will start a new thread entitled "What do I do now?"

Broomer

[lrlforfun]

OK Broomer: You have already tipped your hand. Of course you know what to do. As far as the buzz phrase goes "they're only original once" I believe that needs to go in the book that carries all the other car phrases like "it was BORN" with that or how about, "it has patina" or "survivor" ? Back in the day I clearly remember throwing away all those Buick Factory floormats and even today I toss original masters and fuel pumps. Mitch

Edited January 30, 2013 by lrlforfun (see edit history)

[Guest Broomer]

I am really looking forward to attending the Lexington meet next week. The Riviera is cleaned up and ready to sell. I had to replace brake lines and rebuild all the wheel cylinders but they came out good. It looks good as a survivor but the paint is rough. The interior is like new. If any one wants to know what an ORIGINAL GS looks like, you are welcome to take pictures of any part you care to document. What surprised me is when I gave attention to the trunk. It has the original tan material on the trunk floor and the spare tire cover. The cardboard sides are excellent. But what really surprised me is the original spare tire and wheel have never been on the ground and the original spare (triple white wall) still has the **** on the tire edges and holds air. The chrome on the wheels is rough enough that they should be rechromed in my opinion. Oh ya, I also replaced one hi-beam and one turn signal bulb and the flasher. I had the car inspected in PA. so that it is for sure road worthy, but I didn't register the car so it has it's original title so if some one buys it they will actually be the second owner titleing from the original owner. If it doesn't sell in Lexington, I will bring it home and put it on ebay. Anyway I am really looking forward to meeting some of you at the meet and so I can see what a completely rebuilt Riviera looks like.

Broomer

[Guest Rob J]

Any pics, asking price?

[Guest Broomer]

Hi Rob,

I will have pictures up in a couple of days. The body color is lite blue with deluxe interior in fabric and also blue.

Broomer

[JZRIV]

Sounds good Broomer. Looking forward to seeing the car in person. What day will you arrive? I'm thinking we'll travel down I-79 though WV then across but the Rt 70 route through Columbus and Cinci is possible as well. It doesn't have the constant up and down mountains of WV but has Columbus and Cinci traffic to deal with. Look forward to meeting you next week.

[Guest Broomer]

Hi Jason,

We will be arriving Monday evening. I am taking the Columbus-Cincinnatti route. I had mentioned that the original spare has not been out of the trunk. I noticed that the wheel has a #88 written in crayon on the gray paint of the wheel. Does anyone know if this designates anything or was just someone playing with crayons?

Broomer

[lrlforfun]

OK Broomer: The dark green 65 Riv GS w/18K sold for about 22K a short time ago on the ebay. It had a/c and power windows. For some reason any type of "muscle" in anything seems to attract the crowd. I'm wondering if "muscle" pizza would gather a large audience? Mitch

[Guest Broomer]

OK Mitch: I'm not sure exactly what you are saying. Are you upset because the GS is finally coming into it's own and being recognized as the unique super car that it is? The more I work on this car the harder it is to think about selling it. This make and model has been overlooked for a long time and now that it is becoming more desirable every day I am truly stoked. I never realized how respected the "nail head" is in performance circles. Still learning every day!

Broomer

[whitewatersky]

what colour code "light blue" is it?

Astro Blue like mine?

it would be great to see the interior

is it this kind of material?

in light or dark blue?

Edited June 19, 2013 by whitewatersky
add pic (see edit history)

[Guest Broomer]

Hi Andrew,

Yes it is the deluxe lite blue fabric just like yours. The interior is 99.9% excellent.

I've been driving it around enjoying it before the Lexington meet and now I have this rapping on the floor boards. Turns out the carrier bearing on the drive shaft needs replaced. I think I will start another topic to see if anyone knows if these are readily available or not.

Broomer

[Guest Rob J]

Still waiting on those pics and an asking price. Kinda hard to sell a car without publishing that information. Who knows, maybe you really don't want to sell, and are looking for an excuse to keep it.:cool:

[Guest Rob J]

what colour code "light blue" is it?

Astro Blue like mine?

it would be great to see the interior

is it this kind of material?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]198779[/ATTACH]

in light or dark blue?

That's the Fawn Cloth/Vinyl interior.

[Guest Broomer]

Hi Rob,

Sorry about the pictures. My wife just went unexpectedly for heart surgery and I have been running around trying to keep every thing in order and now the bad carrier bearing happened. I honestly don't know the price for my Riviera. I am going to let the experts at Lexington tell me. I just read that you wouldn't be able to attend and I am sorry I won't have the opportunity to meet you.

Broomer

[whitewatersky]

that's bad news to hear about your wife mate. i trust all will go well.

i love that cloth interior.

looks good in fawn - can only imagine how cool it looks in LIGHT BLUE ! ! ! ! !

[Guest Broomer]

Hi Andrew,

Thanx for your thoughts.

Broomer