What to do with a '63 Olds Jetfire

[Guest]

Here's the dilemma. A family member bought a 1963 Oldsmobile Jetfire at an auction about 6 years ago. At the time it was running (not very smoothly though) but needed new brake calipers and rotors. Since it's such a rare car, my uncle was never able to find replacement parts for it, and it has been sitting in his yard ever since. When he got it, it was in decent condition. The paint was fresh and the interior had only a couple of rips. Overall it was decent.<P>I don't know what it's like now, but I'd love to buy it off him, probably for about $1500.<P>The problem is this:<P>It's such a rare and unique car (only around 9000 built), since it was the first mass produced car with a turbocharger, but the engine needs to be completely rebuilt. I doubt I'll be able to find many replacement parts for it, which gives me the impression it might be better to just drop a crate motor in it and make it a hot rod. However, keeping it original would be great too, it's just going to be hell getting to the point where it's completely restored. I'd love to take this car to classic car shows, but I don't know which setup would do better, a rare care with a Chevy or Ford crate motor in it, or a rare car that has had a frame up restoration. I assume the latter.<P>I know it's the struggle all classic car owners face, hot rod...or restoration. This is a pretty rare car, and while I'd love to keep it original, it seems like it would be more fun to drop a 400hp motor in it, rather than struggle with finding parts.<P>What do you guys think of this car, and where would you take it?<P>thanks

[Steve Moskowitz]

Whoa!!!!!Yes, it is rare but not THAT rare! There are a few examples of this car out there and parts as well. I doubt that the car would make a great modified car so work a little and restore this one. Join the Olds clubs and use the tools of Hemmings, Internet etc. to find what you need. It will be worth the effort.

[Guest]

I agree. 9,000 is not extremely rare. I own a 65 Cadillac Eldorado which had a production of about 2,000. I have had to find several parts that were exclusive to this model and it wasn't impossible. It tends to be a little more costly but it is worth it to maintain the originality.

[Guest]

Well I guess rare is a relative term. I consider less than 10,000 cars total pretty rare. Definately one of the more rare cars anyway. <P>What about this car would make it not a good car to modify? Consider that if I did street rod it, a new engine, tranny, and rear end would go into it. As far as original parts goes, I only know of two people that deal in these, one of them owns 4 himself and I've heard he has a good amount of parts, but when you get down to needing a certain part, there's never a guarantee that it will be easy to find.<P>How this Jetfire do in auto shows if fully restored to new condition?

[Guest]

Another question...I've found some mentions of stroking the 215 turbo motor to a 5.0L, using 64 Buick 300 heads. Is there any way to stroke an engine and still use the same heads? I think stroking it might be the right solution to adding more HP while staying somewhat stock. What does a stroked motor do to how well a car does in a show?

[Dave@Moon]

As far as hot rodding a "rare" Olds vs. stock restoration, there's really only one question to ask: "What do you want?" <P>Do you want a truly interesting and historically important car that will forever be financially and historically valuable; or do you want a semi-fast, boxy street-rod that will be an irretrievable, depreciating asset that the hot rod crowd will not appreciate because it'd be lighter/faster if it were a Chevy. "Jetfire" means as much to the average hot-rodder as "Doble" or "Toastmaster" does (yes there are exceptions, so what). Show them a 1963 era turbocharger, however, and suddenly others will be interested in your project regardless of their personal taste.<P>In a properly judged car show for authentically restored cars (like AACA events), the type of car won't effect performance/judging. It'll only effect the difficulty/challenge of the project. In hot-rod shows, red Chevys win if they show up. On rainly days a Jetfire might win "Only in Class". <P>If you're in the hobby for hot-rod trophies, sell the Olds and buy a red Chevy. <P>Also remember, cars are judged at shows sitting still! How fast it goes will only matter to the cop who nails you on the way home from the show, ticked-off that you lost to another red Chevy. <P>As for stroked engines, as well as other performance mods, if they visually modify the appearance of the motor you'll be docked points in a car show. In a hot-rod show the chrome valve covers from J.C Whitney are a plus, internal mods matter only if there's drag racing or burnout pits involved. If you want to win "Best Burnout" at the Friday night cruise, the sky's the limit (even if it <I>is</I> an Olds)! Of course the Chevy's lighter, so....

[Guest]

Thanks Dave....makes sense to me. Seems like a complete restoration would be the way to go. <P>From what I think you're saying, rare cars don't get extra points, but it'd be hard to win with a car that's not as popular these days. That's ok though, I'll still show up just to see the look of surprise or confusion (depending on if they know what a Jetfire is) when people see the car. I'm lucky enough to live in a town that has an auto show every month.<P>Now my only concern is just how well it will run after the restoration...it's been a long time since I had my 71 mustang, so I'm used to a reliable car! Oh well, we'll see how she runs. Thanks for the advice

[Steve Moskowitz]

Dave gave you very good advice. The rarity of the car means nothing in AACA judging or in any of the Olds clubs. Your points will be decided by the quality and correctness of the restoration. However, when a jetfire is shown at Olds national club meets it is certainly an attention getter. Owning and restoring a unique vehicle like this should give you a lot of pleasure and allow you to teach the public about your special car.<P>As far as my rod comment goes....I meant only that there are far better cars to use as a basis for a modified car. In the Oldsmobile Club of America they do have classes for modified cars, however, in most general car shows you probably would not fair to well. Just my opinion.<P>Hope you take this rare opportunity to restore the Jetfire....you'll be gald you did from a lot of standpoints

[Steve Moskowitz]

Dave gave you very good advice. The rarity of the car means nothing in AACA judging or in any of the Olds clubs. Your points will be decided by the quality and correctness of the restoration. However, when a jetfire is shown at Olds national club meets it is certainly an attention getter. Owning and restoring a unique vehicle like this should give you a lot of pleasure and allow you to teach the public about your special car.<P>As far as my rod comment goes....I meant only that there are far better cars to use as a basis for a modified car. In the Oldsmobile Club of America they do have classes for modified cars, however, in most general car shows you probably would not fair to well. Just my opinion.<P>Hope you take this rare opportunity to restore the Jetfire....you'll be gald you did from a lot of standpoints

[Guest]

ah...love it...this guy thinks all old cars are "classics"...

[Idle Swede]

To HIM it is a classic & he's the owner.

[Guest]

I just use the term classic to mean an old desireable car. It's just a word, unlike others, I don't get hung up on terminology like that. If others feel the need to show their superiority by demeaning me, that's fine. That's their problem, but to those that might feel like doing that, don't assume you know me, and I won't assume you're just another internet @sshole I'm going to be ignoring.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Joeboxer,<P>There's been some good "food for thought" offered here at the "Old Car Buffet"; I lean toward the resto side of the panel; I don't think I've ever seen a '63 Jetfire at a car show or anywhere else that I can recall.<BR>I do remember reading in one of my Chilton manuals from the '60s about the turbocharger and so on, and was very intrigued- I didn't know there were any American turbo-chargerd cars before the '80s!<BR>(Yes, auto shop manuals are still "bed-time reading" for me! )<P>I don't think this car is a candidate for engine mods: if that 215 V-8 is the Aluminum job that Buick had in the Special, I've heard that they were somewhat "delicate" and that there were problems with "porosity" in the aluminum blck castings.( At least that's what some old motorheads told me when I was looking at a '62 Special.)<P>If you get into this Olds, do so because you like the car and appreciate its historical value(?); don't necessarily adopt it "just because it's there". It'll make a neat car, but will probably present some challenges in finding parts because it's a bit of an oddball (read "NOT a red Chevy" ); so you'll need to have the conviction and dedication to "carry on" when the going gets tough.<P>If you want a "painless resto" (actually a myth) or a super-duper tire squealer, find a Chevelle or a Mustang: a lot can be done to/with them, and there's lots of NOS & repro goodies for them; if you want something different and have the tenacity to stick with it, the perhaps the Olds is for you.<P>While it would be a shame to see it sit & rot, it would also be a shame for it to become a "rod project" that would possibly be aborted and wind up in the junkyard anyway.<P>Well, that's enough "sermon" from me; I LIKE different ; that's one of the reasons I have MoPars; and I do cuss 'em when parts aren't just around the corner at the local auto parts super store, but it's neat to go to a local show and have the only 1941 De Soto on the field, or the only Valiant Signet Convertible with a slant-six & four-speed stick; as a spectator, I also like to see something different at shows or on a cruise.<P>Check out that Jetfire closely for condition; make sure it's not a cancer-buggy and that all the trim and stuff is there; most of the upholstery & stuff can either be replicated or closely approximated, if the original stuff is there for a guide, and aside from the Turbo itself, I'll bet the most of the mechanical parts can be searched out fairly readily.<P>Good luck! (Almost bought a '59 Olds once; partly because "it was there", and partly because it was different.)

[Guest]

Now...now...guys....let's be fair...I tracecd a couple of you back to THIS site. If you guys want to wander into the site for the Classic Car Club Of America, and poke fun about what we do and what we are all about within the context of THAT site...then I expect a show of good sportsmanship & good humor on your part, and have ME come in here and rip you guys up...<P>Or....better idea...how about each of us concentrate our efforts in those sites that most closely relate to the area and era that is right for us...?<P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, AZ

[Guest]

Good topic, let's keep it out of peterg's rant and rave section. I vote to restore it to original!!<p>[ 05-05-2002: Message edited by: 54 Oldsman ]

[Guest]

Thanks for your ideas and advice everyone, I think I'll be doing a restification of sorts. I found an adapter to make the 215 mount to a powerglide or turbo tranny, one area I was concerned about. I've heard the stock auto's in the Jetfire suck. I'll do other little trick to it that aren't visible to improve reliablity while maintaining a stock appeance.<P>Yes the 215 was also in buicks, and they had them in Rover's for a while as well, although the Jetfire was the only turbo 215 of course. I've read a lot of info on people with Rovers using a bigger crank to stroke the motor to a 240 with success over the long haul, so that's one route I may take. I'm all for more power. That, maybe some ported heads, honed cylinder sleeves, and maybe a better intake system (removable of course for shows) should bring the ponies up some. Maybe a locker in the rear (hey if you can't see it, it isn't there) if there are any traction problems, and that's about it. The rest will be stock. I'm lucky in that the car has very little rust, and all the trim pieces are there, etc. The turbo is complete, and the "Rocket Fluid" bottle is still there.<P>I found out exactly what it needs right now...I was told it needs new brake master cylinders, and that it has a master cylinder for each wheel. Anyone heard of that setup before? I'm hoping it wasn't specific to this car (like the sidedraft Rochester single barrel carb), and that maybe some more cars used this setup, but I haven't been able to find any info on that yet. I'm thinking maybe he meant the slave cylinders.<p>[ 05-05-2002: Message edited by: Joeboxerr ]

[Idle Swede]

I think P.H. slipped in to the wrong forum.<BR>In the CCCA forum he's quick to point out that the word "classic" belongs to his car only. Here we are much less conservative & can use it for what it is, a word

[Guest]

Ahh I see. Makes sense now. Elitism at it's best.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Joeboxer,<P>Another suggestion, politely offered, since the brakes should be re-done on any car that's over 20 years old (in my opinion), why not start there, and go through the whole system and replace all the steel lines and flex hoses, then replace all the wheel cylinders and master cylinder and shoes and hardware so that you have a nice, tight, new brake system, 'cause you'll need that no matter what's actually propelling the car.<BR>I think this car has drum brakes at all four corners; I don't think they started pushing discs until '65 or'66.<P>Once you've got trustworthy brakes, why not tune up the original engine and see what it'll do? It might not be as un-inspiring as you might think...<P>But, definitely do the brakes over!<P>Also, if you can find a factory shop manual for the car, that will make your life a lot easier! A MoToR's or Chilton's manual from the same period is a close "second".<P>Good luck!

[Guest]

Oh yeah, definately. Brakes will always come first on every car I own. If it won't stop, I won't make it go. My 71 mustang had terrible brakes, I won't go through that again.

[Steve Moskowitz]

I thought maybve someone else whould jump in on your brake system comment but since they did not....NO, you do not have 4 master cylinders on this car! They made two different master cylinders, one for power steering and one for non-power steering. Your brake system is conventional with naturally each wheel having its one wheel cylinder. I have a lot of manuals from this era and seem to recall that '63 was unique as they had a bunch of individual manuals. In any event, they are not that difficult to find and it would seem that should be your immediate goal to find. I do have the names of at least two people who have Jetfire coupes I could e-mail you

[Guest]

That'd be great...my email is <P><BR>email@kevinbabcock.net<P>thanks!

[rocketraider]

Hallo, Steve and Joeboxerr! It was the 64 manual that was 5 separate books. The 63 is all in one fat book. And much easier to find! the lit guys like to hammer you if they have a full set of 64 manuals.<P>Found Frank's comment on early turbocharging attempts interesting. Actually, in the late 50s and early 60s, there was an adventuresome spirit at all American carmakers. Chevy turbocharged the Corvair, the Buick and Olds compacts had aluminum engines, Tempests had a flexible driveshaft and rear-mounted transaxle. Chrysler developed the slant-six about this time and Ford had been building and perfecting retractable hardtops for several years leading up to the concealed convertible Continentals and Thunderbirds. Memory power seats weren't an 80s innovation- Mercury offered it in 1957!<P>I worked with a guy who bought a new 1996 Maxima and he prattled for days about all the gadgets it had. I busted his bubble hard when I told him my 1964 Oldsmobile had everything his car had, plus an automatic headlight dimmer! And his mouth just gaped open...

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Rocket raider,<P>Oops! Forgot about the Monza Spyder Turbos!<BR>Mea Culpa!<P>I didn't mean to imply that there weren't "unconventional" American production cars available in the '60s; there was also the Pontiac OHC six and the Jeep "Tornado" OHC HEMI six, which were pretty neat too.<P>But as for the Corvair Turbo, the Corvair was pretty unconventional to start with; and US automakers had a flirtation with "boosted induction" back in the '30s with superchargers offered in various cars: of course there was the mighty SJ Duesenberg, but Hupmobile and Graham also offered superchargers on their cars, as did Auburn & Cord.<BR>Superchargers returned during the '50s, thanks primarily to Studebaker-Packard,first on the Hawks, later on the Larks,then it faded away again.<P>And I do remember Automatic headlight dimmers, not to mention Chrysler's automatic day-nite rear-view mirrors.<BR>But aside from the Olds Turbo and the Monza, American mfrs weren't interested in the R&D to get more power from a smaller displacement engine: they just used bigger engines for more power! <P>I still think that the Jetfire is unique enough in it's own right to warrant fairly faithful restoration, but that's my own opinion, and no more than that. <P>Cheers!

[Guest]

Regarding car shows: A friend of mine has a wall full of trophies that his Studebaker business coupe has won. He credits this to the fact that it is not something you see frequently. Also, trophies are not the only reason to go to a car show. If you can enjoy sharing your Jetfire with others, and can take pride in your work, that may be reward enough.

[Centurion]

I noted that the current issue (on the newsstands)of "Special Interest Autos" carries an article on the '63 Olds F-85 Cutlass and a sidebar article on the Jetfire. This would be worthwhile reading for you.

[Guest]

Joeboxerr, I had a 63 Buick Skylark with the Alum. V8, 4 barrow carb, (stock), it was a very peppy engine for the size of the car. One thing to look out for with the Alum. engine, is the sludge that will build up as the alum. brakes down. Check all your core plugs (I had to replaced all of mine) & your radiator and have it boiled out, also flush the engine, watch for overheating, the heads are know to warp. I had to do all of this to my Buick before I put it back on the road, but when she was done, she was a very reliably car

[Guest]

Loe Boxer. I think that the Olds V-8 engine was also used in the MG V-8s.Just another parts source!