oldford Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 I just came across an interesting tid-bit and haven't a clue what it is. It is a wooden pattern for a 4 cylinder head that has the word 'Palmer' in the center. It also appears that it would have had two spark plugs per cylinder. The pattern is 18 inches long and just over 7 inches wide. Anyone got a clue as to what this is. See photo: <A HREF="http://home.att.net/~oldford/palmer1.jpg" TARGET=_blank>http://home.att.net/~oldford/palmer1.jpg</A> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Possibly for a Palmer marine engine? I think they were in Cos Cob Connecticut until the '30's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 How about a view of gasket surface, suspect this was for marine conversion of an automobile engine and the water jacket layout will be the giveaway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Indeed, I remember casually glancing at a Popular Science Mag ad from the '30's about model "A" conversion parts offered to builders of marine engines from Palmer, anyone else remember this?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldford Posted April 28, 2002 Author Share Posted April 28, 2002 I cannot show the underside of the head to show you the chamber because this is not a cylinder head. It is a wooden pattern used in the casting process to make the cylinder head. I did think to check the bolt pattern, though. and it is too big for a V8 flathead. I'll check it agains one of the Model A heads that I have amongst the heavy iron in my barn. I thought of a V8 conversion from the start, so I checked against a head, but it's not the same. Did all Ford V8 heads have the same bolt pattern? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J.Heizmann Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 oldford<P>This is a working pattern for sand casting process. It would be screwed onto a board, or, in foundry parlance, a plate.<P>The pattern, when mounted on a plate, is then used to make an impression in the molding sand.<P>In the center of the top row, you will see that lug raised oval section with what appears to be fins going left & right. This is the "sprue" location. The molder pours the iron into the mold at this location. Picture a child's model kit where one would break/cut off the good piece to use and discard the stems, or, "gate" in foundry parlance. <P>At the bottom, there appear to be to posts that, from what I can make out, appear to be coreprint. The core is a separate baked sand piece that is in the shape of the desired hole.<P>To produce the internal dimensions desired, a core would be placed in the mold. The iron, when poured, flows around the cores to create the desired wall thicknesses or hole dimensions. It is hard to understand without seeing the process, but, the core disintegrates about 3-5 seconds after the iron flows around it. Though the casting is still fluid and very hot, this is enough time for the iron to "chill" enough to create the internal dimensions, etc.<P>Also, if you take measurements of overall size, cored hole, etc., and compare them to an actual casting, one will find that the pattern is oversized. Patterns have a metal shrink allowance of .125" per foot built into the pattern in order to allow for the cast iron "shrinking" when cooling. If it is a ductile iron part, it will not shrink as this is a mild steel.<P>Hope I did not confuse anyone, but, it is rather hard to describe.<P>Regards, Peter J. <p>[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: Peter J Heizmann ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 This could be for a Ford V8-60, bring the pattern to The Rhinebech Swap Meet Saturday May 4th. If it is for a Ford V8-60 race motor the spark plugs are in the wrong place, they need to be over the piston, not the valves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldford Posted April 28, 2002 Author Share Posted April 28, 2002 Peter, thanks for the explanation. I did not mean to slight you.<P>Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J.Heizmann Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Frank...you did not slight me. Just wanted to be sure you received the information.<P>After studying your photo closer, notice the "dimples" in the center of the recessed depressions. These are commonly used today. The dimples provide a drill bit starting location. They provide more accurate drilling than if 8 separate cores were placed, which would also add to the labor to produce the casting.<P>Overall, a foundry could mount your pattern and run some parts rather easily. Do you have the coreboxes that go with it? <P>Regards, Peter J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Frank, The day of arrival doesn't matter, which way you turn inside the gate does. Last year I turned right, if I had turned to the left I would have found the D.O.Fronty gear drive and related parts. So many parts, so many choises! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldford Posted April 28, 2002 Author Share Posted April 28, 2002 Peter, this is all I have. I'm tempted to just put in on the fireplace hearth next to the 4 cylinder kellog air pump and the hand crank Model T coil tester, but I was hoping someone who new what this really was could use it. If you knew my wife, you'ld call her a saint... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J.Heizmann Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Frank...good idea!<P>I have been in the sand casting foundry business for 31 years. Like you are alluding, some of these old, wooden patterns are actually works of art. The artisan pattern maker is a lost art for the most part. Today, CAD/CAM computerized systems create models. <P>In the old days, most pattern makers took such pride in their work that they would affix, or, stamp their personal logo, or, initials onto the pattern.<P>I would advise holding on to it. Make sure you store it in a dry area. Needless to say, humidity, cold, dampness do a number on wood. <P>Best regards, Peter J.<P> <p>[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: Peter J Heizmann ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldford Posted April 29, 2002 Author Share Posted April 29, 2002 Thanks to Jim Harris of the engine room for possibly solving the mystery. He found a page for old marine engines and it shows a palmer 4 cylinder marine engine that was available in right or left hand models. (hence the "L"). Thanks for the help....<P>Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldford Posted April 29, 2002 Author Share Posted April 29, 2002 Yes, I will have it at Rhinebeck. I thought of the 60 HP ford engine, but now I'm not sure. I thought of a V8 since there is an 'L' in the top center. If it stands for Left, then there should be a Right. I compared it to a v8 head, but I think it was a later head. It had the radiator hose going into the top center of the head. At least I think it was a V8 head. This damned 'late model' stuff confuses me! See you Saturday?? or Friday?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J.Heizmann Posted April 29, 2002 Share Posted April 29, 2002 oldford...you are quite welcome!<P>Peter J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 29, 2002 Share Posted April 29, 2002 Peter Heizmann: YES thank u for the EXCELLENT explanation on the casting process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest De Soto Frank Posted April 29, 2002 Share Posted April 29, 2002 To all;<P>For what it's worth,<P>years ago my Dad and some of his brothers "went in together" on a 35' "Bay-Built" (not sure if that was an actual builder or just a colloquial term) fishing boat, which was fitted-out with a four-cylinder Palmer "lifeboat" engine (as my Dad referred to it).<P>(We're talking Maryland in the late fifties-early sixties here; they had the boat down on the Severn River.)<P>Any way, the engine appears to be of late-teens-early twenties design: L-head, cylinders cast en bloc but detachable from the crankcase, crankcase has removable "windows" for bearing access, up-draft carb, magneto ignition driven from an extension out of the timing case, and the cylinder head had four spark plugs-18mm?-(one per cyl)with priming cocks.<BR>The engine is "left-hand" rotation, and originally was "flywheel start" but someone added a crank jaw & hand crank. The cooling water was "sea-water" circulated through the block and out through the manifold.<P>The boat is long gone, but the engine is still lurking about my parent's place.<P>Next time I'm down there, I'll try to take pics & get some numbers off'n it.<P><BR>I recall it being larger than a Model "A" Ford engine.<p>[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: DeSoto Frank ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J.Heizmann Posted April 30, 2002 Share Posted April 30, 2002 Folks, I know I am getting off the "auto" subject, however, my company used to make replacement "marine" manifolds for one: OSCO Motors, Hatboro, PA.<P>They made a miriad of aftermarket marine manifolds. Not cheap, but, they would make them for a customer.<P>Basically, they would take an actual casting, add material to allow for molding shrinkage, build the pattern & coreboxes, and, fully paint & machine the piece.<P>Do not know if they would do auto manifolds, but, if the volume is there, they may show interest. As I mentioned many posts ago, if you "pool dollars" from owners of a particular marque that need replacement castings, pay for the tooling, get your parts, and, your co-op then owns the patterns, of which, you could recoup the investment by selling parts to people down the road. (Years ago, we made castings for a Cord Club who did it this way.) <P>Regards, Peter J. <P>[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: Peter J Heizmann ]<p>[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: Peter J Heizmann ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldford Posted April 30, 2002 Author Share Posted April 30, 2002 Thanks guys for all of this info. I'd love to see the photos of the marine engine when you get them. Peter, sounds like I have the start of a head casting shop for your manifolds.<P>Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J.Heizmann Posted April 30, 2002 Share Posted April 30, 2002 Hi, Frank.<P>This is a fun thread. Amazing what one photo can generate.<P>As for casting marine manifolds, my outfit soon found that "we cannot be everything for everybody". The cores for marine manifolds can go over 3 feet! They are very thin, to boot. What happens is if a foundry does not specialize in long, thin section cores, you are out of your marketplace.<P>In our experience, the cores would "Plasticize". In other words, when the 2560 degree molten iron flowed around the core to produce the hollow area, the core would warp. In turn, the casting looked good from the outside, but, in reality, the exhaust channels were warped.<P>Take care, Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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