Need an expierienced opinion

[JanK]

My husband had a '39 Buick Special when I met him and it was a very reliable car. Later, he upgraded to a '37 Buick Century with side mounts (so I married him). <P>The only problem with the Century is its tendency to overheat in parades. This never happens if we're just driving on the road, even in 80+ degree weather. <P>He bought both cars in drivable, restored condition. They weren't trailer queens, but they were in presentable form. We've had the '37 on the road for 16+ years, driving both back roads and freeways. The former owner/mechanic swears the car can do 100, but my husband is the more cautious sort. He's only taken it to 65. We've had to make a few minor repairs, but nothing costly, in all that time. After all that use, it still takes lesser Junior awards at AACA national meets. <P>My husband's one concession to comfort was to put radials on the car. They still look correct, but he's not as tired at the end of a long day of driving.<P>The bottom line: Buy what you like and DRIVE it. That's where the enjoyment is for us.<P>Jan K.<BR>Wis Region

[Guest stude8]

Chuck:<BR>I took the risk of being one of the first to speak about this subject and will say a few things in defense of the Studebaker or Buick or Chrysler big 8's. <P>The first ride I took in a high point restored Model A 29 roadster left me wondering if it had a bad drive shaft or a wheel coming loose. It shook like a dog in a cold rain. The brakes were like everyone else says only good for getting it off a trailer.<P>The big cars ride so much smoother because of the 8 cylinders and longer wheel bases.<BR>The summer drives without A/C will get the family cranky in about 3 miles so you don't want them to have too much other ammunition.<BR>Your gas cost is a tough item, the big 8's will only give 9 or 10 MPG. They are moving a lot of weight remember.<P>What ever you decide on, the "Road Kit" is cheap insurance, I always carry ignition parts (A whole drop in distributor to save fooling around on the shoulder of a highway), fuel pump and water pump. My only problems have been fuel related, install a throw away inline filter because the old tanks will shed rust that can louse up a pump wafer valve easy. A good 6v battery of the correct amp/hour capacity hooked to the right gauge cables is all you need. Even with a generator problem a good battery will get you home. Stude8

[NEW1966]

Dynaflash, I have been collecting 39 Parts for 20 years. Alot of it is NOS. I have tried to buy a 39 Special Coupe in my town for 15 years or longer. Just the other day he started to finally work on it, so I guess I will look for another. We had a 39 Spec. &<BR>Century Opera Coupe. The Special was "dressed" from Buick Motor Co. with Century Trim around the windows & Opera Windows in the back that slid open & closed.<BR>Verde Green/Spec. & Rainier Blue/Century.<BR>My cousin blew the straight 8 in the Spec. so we put in a 430-4bbl out of a low mile 70<BR>Electra(wrecked)in a salvage yard. Riviera Rear End. Auto Trans on the floor. Had to have the driveshaft made. The only problem was the oil filter assembley. It came out of the side of the motor & hit on the frame. We had to reroute it. The only way you could tell it was not original stock was the dual exhaust. The nicest little Spec. Coupe I have ever seen. Handled like a dream. The fastest original stock 39 out of the 19 we owned was the Century Coupe. Flat Out, 101 MPH. Been all over in a 39. Marti Gra in New<BR>Orleans, Buick Meets in Ohio/Iowa/Indiana/etc. But the best of all were the small town parades. The towns would pay the Buick Club Chapter $10.00 a car. Nothing prettier in this world than a line of<BR>Buicks in a small town parade(with a 39 or two) in the lead. Century of course. Then off to the City Park for Brats & a Beer. 80-90 degrees & hours of looking at each others<BR>"dream cars". There is no way you can come close to explaining to someone what it is like to own & DRIVE a 39. It's a world in itself. 4 Jaw Chuck, You do not know what you are missing. I have owned and driven old cars for years and I will tell you this. No matter where you go in a 39 Buick, people ALWAYS stop you and want to look at and talk about your beautiful car. Sometimes I think the children appreciate them most. The look on their faces. The size of their eyes. They know. "39" Buicks a Beauty.<P>Greg...NEW1966

[Dynaflash8]

4JAW I think you've about got more advice than you can ever decipher. If you're an old guy like me you don't need radials because you've already driven bias most of your life. I put them on a 39 Century and didn't think it ran any better, and I think my 66 Chrysler drives worse. Gregg I didn't think anybody could hold a candle to me in loving 39 Buciks but I think you're the guy. I like the Specials best. I found the Century heavy handling, and the manifold was a pain just like the one on the 48 Roadmaster I once had. And I watched my Dad peg a worn 39 Buick Special at over 100. The needle was bouncing between 100 and 105. Only time I ever saw my Dad show off. He outran a 39 Packard 120 and a hot rod '38 Chevy that night. I was about 11 years old. These old cars can run fast for awhile, but they're like me when I dance, I can still jitterbug fast, but not for nearly as long!! <p>[ 04-22-2002: Message edited by: Dynaflash8 ]

[Guest]

Wow almost fifty responses in a such a short time, I can't begin to thank all of you for all the good advice. I appreciate all the help you all have offered me.<P>I talked to my coworker again today about the car, his Dad is the one who owns it. Anyway we had a good conversation about the car and what the plans were for it, he said although his Dad had no immediate plans for it he was planning on "fixing it up one day". His Dad is getting on in years and the likelyhood of him ever getting to restore the car is pretty slim, he mentioned another interested party that has more than 6 cars in his collection already and has cash at the ready. It would seem that I am not first on the list.<P>His Dad would like to have his daughter get married with the car as bridal vehicle so he would like the car restored. I told him that I only had noble intentions (I feel like I am courting a girl) and I intended to restore the car to original condition. I asked if it would be possible to at least have a look at the car and perhaps take some photographs for this club and myself if he did not feel the time was right, I would give them copies of any photos I took. The car is in storage right now so I will have to wait and be patient but persistant. I have to meet his Dad to make a connection with him and let him see who I am, fair enough.<P>Not quite sure what my chances are but the almighty dollar may decide for me, all I can do is try. I will keep you all updated on the progress. I'm not disappointed but it looks like the other party could outbid any offer I put on the table (I know who he is and he has the money), the potential investment value of the car is already overshadowing the whole process. Apparently the Dad paid $2000 dollars for the car less than 5 years ago so he literally stole the car, hopefully he doesn't hope to retire on this one investment-I can't afford it.

[Dynaflash8]

My final bit of advice 4JAW is, go find another car. This guy will string you on for years if he's like any of the others who want to "fix it up some day" are that I've met in the last 50 years. As I said earlier, I've tried to get a certain car for 35 years and it's like somebody holding out a piece of candy and moving it a little away every time you try to take it...just teasing. As for dollars I went from a $500 offer in 1966 to a $10K offer only weeks ago and no offer over these years has ever been enough. I think some of these guys are afraid if they sell the car then 10 years down the road somebody would have paid them more, while in fact the car is disintegrating where it sits and in truth is worth less. In my case, I've made my final offer, and the next 39 Buick convertible that comes along that makes sense is the one I'll buy, it just won't have belonged to a big-named person long in its past or have a white leather interior (now turned brown of course, haha). Good luck with your decision.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

4-Jaw Chuck et al,<P>Some very thoughtful replies and sound advice as well.<P>I realize that I'm a bit of a "kid" here, but I've been turning wrenches on old iron for almost 30 years, and using thirty-year old jalopies for "daily drivers" for almost 20 years, so I think I might have a thought or two to contribute... <P>My first pre-war driver was/is my '41 De Soto. Have had it for nearly six years now, and put almost 10,000 miles on it. To date, it has never left me stranded, but I carry the usual repair kit just the same!<P>Probably the best advice I 've seen here is to determine what you want the car to be & do for you, and go from there.<BR>Fords, Chevies and Plymouths probably have the best parts availability, pre-war, as well as strong club & vendor support.<P>As regards the Model "A" specifically, it's a truly signifigant car in it's own right, and is probably eclipsed only by it's predecessor(the "T") in terms of its impact on Western Culture (how's that for "charged statement? ). It sounds like you've got a crack at a "choice, unrestored, barn-fresh" original. Physical condition is very important: all the mechanical stuff can be repaired/replaced/upgraded fairly easily (just takes money); body/interior work is a little more daunting. Most "A"s have a wooden body skeleton with a sheetmetal skin; the stregnth is in the wood - the metal is just there to "keep the breeze out"! If the wood is rotten due to water, dry rot, bugs, whatever, the project quickly mushrooms. <BR>If the body looks solid, and enough of the interior is still there so that you know what it looks like, etc etc, you're probably in good shape.<P>If possible, get behind the wheel and "try it on for size"; don't know how big you are, but if you're over six feet tall, an "A" may not fit you too well.(People were smaller in 1928!)Also consider the family of 5; you'll be "cosy" in that flivver!<P>Mechanical "upgrades" to brakes & such, can be done as "bolt-on" mods that can be turned back to "stock" if desired(the way I prefer to see it done!); bear in mind if prepping for higher speeds that "A"s rode on 4.50 or 5.00 x 21 or 19" tires - there's not a lot of "footprint" in contact with the road, so one must "temper" their driving habits accordingly!<P>I like "A"s, and have one on my list of "must have cars"; check it out & see what you're getting into; find out it's "natural limitations" and see if you (and your family) can live within them.<P>A great treat last summer was the opportunity to DRIVE a 1924 Chrysler B-70 touring car ! A Chrysler convention here in NE PA affroded me that chance, and I was like a kid in the candy store! What a blast!<BR>The car was quite a bit different than driving my '41 De Soto, mostly in steering and shifting: the steering would qualify as "heavy" by modern terms, but the car "handled" well and didn't particularly wander or fight the wheel. The gear shift & clutch were another "adjustment": the gears were unsynchronized(crash box) and the clutch "driven disc" was solid (no "flexible plate"), so there was no "slipping the clutch" to get moving: the car was either stationary, or moving! Those skills come quickly though!<BR>A very respectable performer too, for an 80 year-old car! Had more pep than my tired old De Soto!<BR> <BR>My personal preference is towards Chrysler products; I've found them to be well-engineered and extremely reliable, as well as physically comfortable. I've heard some folks complain through the years about Ford V-8s tending to have cooling system problems & vapor lock issues, as well as the mechanical brakes & buggy spring suspension, and Chevies have their "bugs" too (I guess every car does...).<P>So having said all of that, check out your "A", and if it looks like it's to your liking, go for it!<P>Just bear in mind, ANY pre-war car is going to require some "attitude & lifestyle adjustments"...as long as you & the car "understand each other", you'll probably get along fine.<P>Best of luck!

[Guest leadfoot]

4 Jaw -<BR>Three rules of thumb in the "old car trade": 1. Have a good idea about what interests you and how to spend your resources (time and money), 2. Always grab a real opportunity when it's presented, and 3. The ocean is full of fish.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Dynaflash 8 -<P>Our "friend from Baltimore" with the '22 Case,<BR>was it a big yellow Case touring car, that lived off of Liberty Rd, just outside the Beltway?<P>I remember one of our MD De Soto Club members having such a car, in addition to several De Sotos...<P>Certainly couldn't have been too many Cases lurking around Balto in the early '80s, when I was active int the De Soto club...

[Guest]

Chuck:<P>If you're going to enter it in shows and expect "some kind" of return on your investment, you should only consider a Model A or a full classic. The cost of restoring a car properly is a fairly fixed amount. You might as well put the money where you have a chance of seeing it again. Best bet is a convertible. Worst is a green four door.<P>For driving, I'd suggest an "orphan" car. These are makes that were built from 1916 to about 1927. They're not pre-16 and they're not generally classics. Lots of orphans like Paige, Hupmobile, Chandler, etc. offer opportunities to own really nice and unusual pieces of machinery at low prices. If you want to drive a full classic, you can't do better than a Marmon. They're radically underpriced and comparable to a Packard in quality. Of course, when you go to sell, it won't bring what a Packard would. It's a low in/low out situation. They have a good club with lots of people who can help with parts and advice.

[Guest]

Only 49 replies ? how do you expect to catch up with the doughnut eaters ?

[Dynaflash8]

Gee Straightaway8 I just restored a green Buick sedan. It replaced a Packard I was never satisfied with. Even if it doesn't bring what I have in it, it's not like losing greens fees at the golf course. The man should buy what he likes, and I don't see any big "profits" lately in a Model A, they're fairly static. I've had 39 years of enjoyment and a Grand National Senior from a blue sedan and I still wouldn't trade it for six Classics and fourteen Model A's, (nothing against either) but that's my preference and everybody has a right to their own preference and should follow their "love" not their pocket book (or insofar as their funds will take them...we can't take it with us). But that's my opinion.<BR>DeSotoFrank: The Case was off white, not yellow. Currently it lives in Illinois with a grandson. In 1965 I looked at a '41 DeSoto 2-door on Liberty Rd., owned by a retired policeman. It was a good car for $200 or so, but I passed it up. Maybe you got it. Passed up six 53 Buick Skylarks in the Balto-Washington area for $40, $60, $350, $400 and $500....obviously I don't have a very good Crystal Ball. The $500 I passed up two more times for $1900 and $2500 and it was a good low mileage car. The $400 car had 10K miles on it but the paint was coming off in sheets with big rust spots underneath. All but the ones under $100 were running, driving cars. Actually there were another half dozen of these cars in the area; one totally restored brought $3,000. Can we go back to the 1970s just for a few days? haha<p>[ 04-24-2002: Message edited by: Dynaflash8 ]

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Dynaflash,<P>Thanks for the reply; the last time I saw our friend with the Case was around 1986 or so, and the Case was laid-up for engine repairs.<P>I think my memory is going somewhat color-blind; this is the second time in a week that I've been corrected on my color memory!<BR>(Is that one of the first things to "go"? )<P>My De Soto is a four-door (but at least it's not green! ); and was found way out in "deer country" between Williamsport & Wilkes-Barre, PA; literally right up against state game lands!<P>Yes, it'd be nice to be able to go back and pick-up some "bargains" that we passed on years ago, like the '53 Packard my father bought from Ballenger Buick in Laurel,MD for $25 in 1963, and spent another $25 or so for an engine overhaul kit from Montgomery-Ward!<BR>That was replaced by a '55 De Soto Firelflite Sportsman 2-dr HT, which Dad also got pretty cheap; sadly, these bargain cars went to the junkyard when Dad was done with them; I should say, DRIVEN TO the junkyard (What WERE we thinking in 1970?)<P>Well, this is Chuck's thread, so I guess I should get back "on track" here... I've been following this with interest- I guess I'm looking for guidance or at least food for thought too...<BR>The idea of restoration costs being pretty much "fixed" is an intersting concept; I know that things like re-chroming are expensive, whether it's for a Ford or a Rolls-Royce; and in the case of older MoPars, the Dodge & Plymouth guys fare better than us De Soto & Chrysler folk on that score because the "low-end" cars used more stainless steel for grilles & trim, and they don't have as much pitted pot-metal to refinish!<P>Probably the biggest variable would be in how much of the restoration work has to be farmed-out to "hired-help". I realize that an individual's time is "money" too, but I think we regard that differently than if we had to pay someone else to do every single thing on our cars.<P>Then there's the "investment question": how much money do we really want to sink into that "green 4-door sedan"? The reality that I'll "never get back out what I put into it" slows my progress a bit, and therefore I'm choosey about what money I spend on the '41 De Soto 4dr sedan; I don't know if I'll ever get to the point of replacing the "mail-order interior kit" that "previous owner" installed with the correct (read: "expensive") wool broadcloth interior, which would also mean making sure that all the body rubber is replaced so that water damage is avoided, then the wood-graining all has to be re-done, etc, etc...<BR>Again, personal choices. My greatest joy comes from driving and working on these relics; so reliability & safety probably are at the top of my list, although physical condition is gaining importance - I don't feel quite right about asking my wife if we can take my De Soto when we have to go somewhere when I have some cracked window glass, and the interior door panel off the driver's door(am about to re-do the window channel & glass!), and no carpeting or floor mats etc. Then there's the rust blistering from under the belt moldings; the rest of the paint job is fairly good, so, do I remove the mouldings and try to "spot repair" or do I go whole-hog and strip the whole car, do the frame-off, etc? Again- a personal decision: this car would conservatively require an investment of around $10k to $20k to ever be a "correct" trophy winner,which would make it a trailer queen, and certainly "overpriced" if I ever tried to recoup my investment...<BR>So, I do to it what I can, as I can and get as much enjoyment as possible without going broke!<P>I think it helps to start with a complete car; chasing missing parts can take years, especially the farther one goes away from the "Big Three".<P>Certainly lots to think about here...go to shows and talk to some owners- like the guy who let me drive his '24 Chrysler (he's a rare type, but a great guy, if you meet him or someone like him): he owns many other cars from the '20s & '30s and was able to compare and contrast the stregnths & weaknesses of each (yes, probably with a little bias here & there,but...).<BR>Most owners who are worth talking to (and have done their own work) are generally pretty straightforward about their car and what it can & can't do, how it drives, what its quirks are, whether or night it's a maintenance nightmare, and so on.<P>I've got a "friend of a friend" lead into the local Model "T" club, so when I set my mind on a "T", I'm going to pursue that avenue, and hopefully get a little hands-on experience before making a signifgant investment into a car that may turn out "not be for me."<P>I will again say that pre-war cars are a different driving concept altogether; something you'll want to consider; I can't even think about taking my De Soto out on I-81 here in PA unless it's capable of cruising at 65 mph (which it's presently not!4.11 rear-end!); I'll get crushed by Semis & SUVS !<BR>So I have to stick to "the milk route"(old US & WPA roads) which add to my general travel time when "commuting".<P>Well, enough for now- someone elses turn!<BR>I like the thought that perhaps a Marmon might not be "out-of reach" after all...<BR>Probably more withtin my grasp than the early-20's Packard Twin-Six Special or Locomobile 48 that I think I've wanted for years! <p>[ 04-24-2002: Message edited by: DeSoto Frank ]

[ronbarn]

The Marmon News, newsletter of the Marmon Club lists several Marmons for sale from project car to restored and the comments made earlier are pretty correct. Because most people tend to stay away from the more unusual vehicles, Marmons tend to be underpriced for the quality. I am not placing an ad myself, but if you want more information, email me. If the email generates something of general interest, I will post it on this DF.

[Guest]

I have been doing some thinking about what all has been said and I can see how perhaps buying a very poor condition "classic" and restoring it would bring a higher resale value than restoring a less desirable but better condition driver. I guess the trick would be to find a very poor condition "classic" with all the hard to find pieces and restore it to get the most value, it may cost more up front and take more effort but in the long run financially I would have a more desirable vehicle that would bring a higher price. Does this make sense? I am not sure what the wife would say if I brought home a trailer load of parts that cost me a small fortune mind you? What kind of cars would fit in this category.

[Dynaflash8]

It all depends on whether you want a car because you fall in love with it, or because you are looking for the best return on your money. Of course if you can get both, I guess all the better

[1937hd45]

Chuck, One inportant rule of collecting, never buy something you don't like the looks of. You may have it for a long time, and if you deside to sell it, looking at an ugly bad investment makes things worse. Rule #2 if you are given, or buy something WAY under market price you can pass on rule one.

[Guest]

"A"

[NEW1966]

"A-plus"<P><BR>Greg...NEW1966