Max BURKE Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 G,day to all'Does any reader have anything at all on the Nichoalds engine gearbox units advertised from that company in Grand River Avenue Detroit about 1914/15 as a improved engine replacement for the Hup 20?.Anyone ever seen one?Max Burke Nulkaba Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Max: Nichoalds shows on a quick (45 second) Google as a parts supplier, but not a parts manufacture, which doesn't mean much, but before deeper digging around: have you run this question by the Hupp club, and, if so, what did they say??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max BURKE Posted June 28, 2012 Author Share Posted June 28, 2012 G,day and thank you Bud. About ten years ago Ken Kaufman contacted me about the Nichoalds engine and the company. His research with input from Bill Cuthbert and the late Ralph Dunwoodie determined that Nichoalds were a buyer and trader in surplus stock of automobile and perhaps other items, in short anything to turn over a dollar profit. We have never found who made this Hup 20 type engine or found anyone who has seen one or found one installed in a Little, a Whiting, or a Hup 20. These three engines are so simular that there mast be a connection someware. The Hup is the most primativeof the three and was probably put together by the Beyster / Schwarts company. That firm have their trade mark on many parts inside the Hup 20 engine a Diamond with BS. Indeed we believe they made most if not all of that engine.The Nichoalds co. advertised the engine as a Hup replacement complete with Magneto and Carb for $190 in about 1914/1915. Lets hope someone has seen one.Max Burke Nulkaba Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Max: Many thxx for detailed reply.If I'm following you, the original Hupp 20 engine, the Little and Whiting engines are so similar they appear to be the same design and/or from the same builder, with the Hupp 20 the most basic and the Little/Whitings improved versions or improved copies, that the logical places to find the Nichoalds engine etc (if it ever existed) would be in Hupp 20s, Littles/Whitings.I assume there was no pic/illus in the Nichoalds ad for their "better" engine etc.If you've established Nichoalds wasn't a m'f'r, or highly unlikely to've designed and had built somewhere their better engine etc, it has to've come from one of the established m'f'r's--has anyone reviewed lists of established auto engine m'f'r's to compile a list of possible suspects??Has anyone Googled for any connection between Nichoalds and those existing auto engine m'f'rs??More importantly, has any member/enthusiast/fanatic in Detroit gone to the Hist Soc/s and the pub lib to review the trade journals, business newspapers and general newspapers business sections of the period for a squib saying "Nichoalds co has agreed to purchase x number of auto engines from X company" (or vice versa), or such business announcements??Have you considered the possibility this ad (was there more than one?) was a trial balloon, that there were insufficient replies to actually put such an engine etc into production, that the idea was to put something together out of already being m'f'd pieces ONLY if enough deposits could be gathered??Are you interested as a researcher, or was one of these reportedly in AU?? I've some old "American Exporter" magazines, and the indexes for 1916-17 (my earliest) don't list Nichoalds as an advertiser, but that doesn't mean much.Dying of curiosity, but with sympathy, Bud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Max: Has anyone tried to run down the alleged Nichoalds outboard motor?? Per Joe Brincat, a 2010 poster on smokstak, Peter Hunn's 3rd Ed of his "The Old Outboard Book", pg 131, has a one-line reference to an outboard motor supposedly m'f'd by Nichoalds in 1916 or so, and mentioned in some of their ads I've seen on Google.It's almost certain it was actually someone else's motor, but it could be a connection to a motor m'f'r that was also into auto engines at the time. Grasping at straws, perhaps, but who knows?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Sounds like Mr. Nicholds got ahold of some surplus Hupp engines and transmissions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Rusty: An excellent point, although I'd assume that was one of the first things these researchers would've considered. Std cat says the "20" was prod 1909 with 16.9 HP, 1910 18/20 HP, 1911-12 20 HP, all on same wb. Beginning 1912 Hupp also had model 32 32 HP on longer wb. 1913 was last of the 20s: 20C on orig wb, 20E on longer, both 20 HP.Since Nichoalds engine was supposed to replace "20" engines, presumably all the 20s had the same engine, gradually tweaked or wound up tighter for the increased HP.Nichoalds may well've had surplus "20" engines and just been boosting when he claimed improved performance (any new engine will improve performance over a worn one!); if the "32" engine etc could've been shoehorned in he might've gotten some "32"s; they would certainly've improved performance!! It's also possible he could've had "20" engines with someone else's transmission, the claimed improved performance the result of different gearing. I'm not personally familiar with these older cars, and I don't know how (if at all) "universal" the engine etc mounts may've been, so that a more powerful motor/trans unit from some other car might've been a drop-in fit.Too many mysteries, too little time!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max BURKE Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 Gday to allSorry boys the Nichoalds engine gearbox units were not Hup 20 although aimed at the replacement market for them. The drawings that we have show them to have diferent crankcase castings.We do know that Nichoalds were liquidators of obsolete stock and to be reselling @ $ 190 complete with magneto (Variable spark) and carburetor. Well?.There are crankcase hand holes below the oil box for access to the rod bearings.The improved oil box varied the drip feed via the magneto advance controll.The last line of their advertisement says the engines were made by the Nichoalds company. Doubtfull? Perhaps they are Whiting.Who made the engines for Whiting? Max Burke Nulkaba Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Ahhhhh, Soooooo..., as Charlie C used to say. So now it develops you have drawings, not just an ad or ads....engineering drawings? blueprints? Drawing of internals? renditions of the completed units? precise, clear, detailed or vague sketches?I assume no mention of who/what made them??Has anyone spent the $35 or $50 to join the Horseless Carriage Library and go thru their Nichoalds items in their library?? The thumbnails are confusing but seem to indicate Nichoalds might've dealt in various whole cars as well as whatever parts and pieces came to hand.HAVE YOU OR THE OTHER RESEARCHERS CONFIRMED THESE ENGINES ACTUALLY EXISTED, OR ARE YOU ASSUMING THAT SINCE THERE ARE DRAWINGS AND ADS THAT THEY WERE ACTUALLY AVAILABLE FOR DELIVERY?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max BURKE Posted June 30, 2012 Author Share Posted June 30, 2012 G,day to all and Bud.Ken Kaufman sent me the only info. that I have. It is in the form of an article that Ken produced for the Society of Auto Historians, Southern California in 1981.Yes I became a member of the HCCA foundation group about 20 years ago but at that time our dollar was worth only about 55 cents against the greenback and search fees were in quarter hour segments.I soon realised that to research anything there I needed to do it in person at no cost at all.The only "drawing" is a sketch from the Do you Know Me Have you seen me? add.No Bud I dont know if any engines were sold,The ad says All Round The World.The purpose of this post is to find if anything further has come to light in the last 20 years. I have talked about this often at National Hup Rally here but most owners of Hup 20s firmly believe that singlehandedly Robert Craig Hupp built every Hupmobile on his kitchen table.When I can entice son John from the workshop he will send to you the SAH article that Ken produced. At the time Ralph D had access to the Harrah library and Bill C has many coppies of the trade magazines of the time. Both turned up Interesting copy but we dont know how many if any went into service. @ $ 190 for complete engine gearbox unit ready to fit into Hup 20 one would think some must have been used but then a Hup 20 owner would probably think the engine was the original HupMax Burke Nulkaba Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Max: Sent a PM thru this site; post here if it doesn't come thru. Bud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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