1917 water pump packing & other q's

[Guest SteveInColorado]

Hi all. Posted this on the tech forum, and someone suggested posting it here, too. I didn't see this forum the first time around.

<HR SIZE=1>

<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hello all. I've searched here for an answer to my question, and while I didn't find it, this is obviously a knowledgeable crowd. So here goes.

I'm trying to fix some things on my neighbor's Buick, and don't want to jump in headfirst before I have a little background. The first problem is the leaky water pump. The gland nuts look like there would barely be room to get a packing in there without pulling the pump. Can it be done in the vehicle? What size is the packing, and what works? I know the shaft surfaces will need to be inspected.

Also, from his description it sounds like he needs a new ring gear on his flywheel. Is it a removeable gear? Has anyone ever flipped one and gotten away with it? I suppose even if flipping it was possible, the flywheel may be so old that I could never get it off in one piece.

Last but not least, the carburetor. He says it leaks fuel, so I'm guessing the float or needle and seat have issues. From snooping through other posts, I'm assuming it's a cork float. Do they tend to get impregnated with modern gas and sink? Any pointers on what to do or not do in the carb?

The float question was answered on the tech forum, and the water pump was addressed. I'd still like to know what size and type of packing to use. I know there are square packings available for stationary pumps, etc., just wondering what works best.

I appreciate any help, and thanks in advance.

Steve.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[Mark Shaw]

Steve,

Remove the old packing and measure the size. Use Graphite impregnated braided packing for best results. You can order it here.... McMaster-Carr

[Guest SteveInColorado]

Thanks for the reply, Mark. Do you or does anyone know if the ring gear is removeable? Is the starter prone to bearing failure, etc., that would make it skip like a modern starter with a bad ring gear?

Thanks again,

Steve.

[unimogjohn]

Steve, I think the packing is 1/8th inch. Best to measure one round at a time, cut on an angle, and insert. It usually will take three or four rings. Even with packing, it will leak. Do not tighten the nuts too tight as they can bind the shaft. Just tight enough to stop the leak.

Re the ring gear. You should have an inspection plate on the bottom of the bell housing or a separate cover. You can then rotate the engine and inspect the ring gear. Usually it is not the ring gear, but the starter gear that wears out. There are many re-builders of these starters.

Edited August 19, 2010 by unimogjohn (see edit history)

[Mark Shaw]

One more pointer on packing... space the cuts 120 degrees apart so you don't create a leak path channel in the packing set.

[tblack]

Steve...4 or 6 cylinder?? If a 4 and you need a ring gear I have one but the fly wheel needs to be cut to take it.

[Guest SteveInColorado]

TBlack-

It is a 4 cylinder. Do you mean to say that the ring gear was not originally removable, but the flywheel can be turned down?

I didn't figure out until the day after I looked at the car what the starter/generator was. I wasn't looking at it specifically, so didn't spend any time trying to identify it. Yesterday I saw a Youtube video with a running engine on a stand, and noticed the starter gear is out in the open on the stand. Can you inspect it in the car to check for wear on the drive gear, and check the ring gear mesh?

I was thinking ring gear because on modern vehicles a grinding starter is due to a worn ring gear 90% of the time. Now that I understand this setup better, I can see that the drive gear, bearings, and alignment are probably at LEAST as likely to be the culprit. Still a good chance that wherever the problem originated, the ring gear could be bad.

Thanks for the advice,

Steve.

[tblack]

Steve... yes the ring gear was cast with the flywheel...It would need to be cut to take the new ring unless of course some where in its history this cut was done before...I bought the ring and then found a decent flywheel with good ring teeth so I never used it.

Yes inspection is easly made from the open bottom to see that teeth are ok or not.

Per the little room for working the packing I used a allen wrench ground to a point on the short side used grip pliers on long shank to dig around and get all the old packing out. On the 4 there is scarce little room.

[Mark Shaw]

Most industrial supply companies offer packing hooks.

McMaster-Carr

[Guest SteveInColorado]

One more question- coolant. Is modern antifreeze good, bad, or indifferent on these things? I think I'm gonna tackle it tomorrow.

Thanks again for all the help,

Steve.

[Larry Schramm]

The water pump leaked water past the packing on my truck until I filled it with 50/50 antifreeze. Remember that new coolant has anti corosive and water pump lubircants in it.

[Guest SteveInColorado]

I finally got around to working on this- owner had a family emergency and I had a funeral. Anyway...

The best info I could come up with was that the pump packing was either 3/32" or 1/8". All I could find was 1/8", at Ace Hardware, so that's what it got. Worked fine. One package was enough to repack both sides. It turns out that one of the reasons I was thinking there wouldn't be enough room to work in there was that someone had packed it with much larger packing that stood above the threads by 1/2" or so. It was still VERY tight on the back side, but doable. Got 3 layers in each end.

I pulled the float bowl apart and got the float out. Is the big screw directly above the bowl the main jet? I had to take it out to get the float out- should probably know what it is when I put it back together. I counted turns when I took it out, but may need tweaking anyway.

The starter problem isn't the drive gear or ring gear. It's the intermediate gear that moves with the pedal. The corners are mushroomed, but look like they could be dressed. What does it take to get that thing out? It looks like at the very least, I'd have to remove the starter/generator, but I'd hate to pull it if I don't need to or if it won't help.

The car is in incredible condition, and everything came apart smoothly. I've worked on antique tractors that everything was rusted in place on. This thing is a real joy to work on and learn about.

Oh, one other thing. The intake is open. Did these things have any kind of an air filter? I hate to see an engine as old as this one sucking dirt.

Thanks,

Steve.

[unimogjohn]

Steve, no air filter on yours. Even in the 20s they did not have much of a filter, just a metal can that dropped out the big pieces of debris, and that did not change until the 30s when they finally went to an oil bath filter.

[Guest SteveInColorado]

John-

Thanks for the reply. Man, I hate to see an engine that has ran for almost a century open to the dust we have here. This is my neighbor, and we live on a dirt road. I've rebuilt about a hundred engines, and can tell you that dirt in a cylinder is as destructive as running an overheated engine or running low on oil. I may try to match a K&N to it to get him to town. When he's with his antique all-original buddies, he can take it off.

Oh, and as you can see, you had the size right on the packing. Thanks.

Anyone have any pointers on the intermediate starter gear or the big carb screw?

Steve.

[jbbuick22]

Steve,

The sliding gear shaft is held by a roll pin in the front of the housing.

JB

22-6-55 Sport Touring

[Mark Shaw]

The big carb screw is the air mixture control. Start with the end of it set even with the tang that snaps into the notches of the knob. Adjust if for even idle, and adjust again to throttlu up so the engine does not stumble.

[Guest rockindubya]

I finally got around to working on this- owner had a family emergency and I had a funeral. Anyway...

The best info I could come up with was that the pump packing was either 3/32" or 1/8". All I could find was 1/8", at Ace Hardware, so that's what it got. Worked fine. One package was enough to repack both sides. It turns out that one of the reasons I was thinking there wouldn't be enough room to work in there was that someone had packed it with much larger packing that stood above the threads by 1/2" or so. It was still VERY tight on the back side, but doable. Got 3 layers in each end.

I pulled the float bowl apart and got the float out. Is the big screw directly above the bowl the main jet? I had to take it out to get the float out- should probably know what it is when I put it back together. I counted turns when I took it out, but may need tweaking anyway.

The starter problem isn't the drive gear or ring gear. It's the intermediate gear that moves with the pedal. The corners are mushroomed, but look like they could be dressed. What does it take to get that thing out? It looks like at the very least, I'd have to remove the starter/generator, but I'd hate to pull it if I don't need to or if it won't help.

The car is in incredible condition, and everything came apart smoothly. I've worked on antique tractors that everything was rusted in place on. This thing is a real joy to work on and learn about.

Oh, one other thing. The intake is open. Did these things have any kind of an air filter? I hate to see an engine as old as this one sucking dirt.

Thanks,

Steve.

Steve, that Junior Delco is a marvel of engineering. Kettering was a GENIUS! I have two in my care, at this time, attempting to mitigate the cost of repairing the first one. The water pump packing leakage is a major contributor to distributor bearing failure, as well as seizure of the spark advance mechanism. Not relevant to your question, but I too, am fascinated by this device.

One question.... Does the generator charge the battery?

The reason I ask, is that when the pedal is slightly depressed, the generator circuit actually slowly rotates the gear shaft for soft engagement to the ring gear, then fully depressing the pedal engages the start circuit for power to crank the engine. If the generator circuit is open or otherwise not operable, that could result in a "hard engagement" that would most likely cause gear damage. There is no leading bevel, like later models, and of course, no solenoid for instant kick out. Just something to consider.

If you disassemble it, take a LOT of pictures!

Good Luck, Jeff