'64 and '68 Spindle interchange

[CTX-SLPR]

Howdy,

I'm building my own disk brake kit and its far easier to do off of the symetric '66+ spindles. I know the ball joints interchange but will the rest of the steering system work or am I headed into new territory?

Related question, the Riview articles I've seen have mentioned suspension improvments for the later 60's Rivs. How did they improve the front end geometry?

Thanks,

[tim63riv]

HI,

Why would you want to engineer your own set up when Scarebird sells them for about $100.00 and they bolt on your existing 64 spindles?

Tim

[CTX-SLPR]

Brakes rotors are smaller than I'd like so I'm looking at either the 12.8in or 13.4in Corvette rotors redrilled to the 5x5in bolt pattern that the B-body Impala SS guys have had made used with the 65-70 drum brake hubs and the symetric 66-70 Riviera spindles though I could in a pinch use the 64 spindles.

[tim63riv]

Probably be simpler to do a Corvette suspension clip on your Riv frame. It would likely give you more room for the Turbo conversion by changing from a steering gear to a rack and pinion and you would get the best steering geometry on the market. Pick up a copy of Street Rodder and check out their vendors.

Tim

[CTX-SLPR]

I'm not going to cut up the frame at this point to remove the stock Riviera front suspension and put in a Corvette front end without a second frame to work on and then I'd be adding the whole C5 A4 torque tube setup. I'd need new upper and lower arms to use a set of front steer spindles and I have a suspicion that the sway bar would interfere with the rack location. Right now the interference with the Turbo6 packaging is the UCA cross shafts with the AC compressor on the drivers side and the Kenne Bell headers didn't fit with the passengers side so I swapped to a stock style set of Postons and they fit fine. The centerlink has a mild interference with the cross over pipe but thats not going to be hard to fix as I'm running external gates and was going to remake the cross over anyway. The oil pan to centerlink was an issue but I've rengineered it fit including the baffle.

Right now I am looking to see if the change in spindles and steering knuckles will work as I have spare sets of both the 63-65 and the 66-70 spindles and knuckles available, just don't want to mock something up on the easier to use late spindles when they won't work on the vehicle bumpsteer wise especially.

[tim63riv]

If you are swapping front steer spindles on to a rear steer application, the Ackermann angles will be off, causing an issue with toe out-on-turns, and possible tire scrubbing when the wheels are turned. Bump steer is possible if you change the dimensions of the spindle center to the tie rod stud hole on the steering arm, which has to be the same as the center to center of the idler arm and pitman arm. Sounds like a major undertaking for you and I hope the swap goes well, I think I'd just pick up a Turbo Regal and be done with it!

Tim

[CTX-SLPR]

I think we have managed to confuse each other here. I am sticking with either the Early or Late X-frame Riviera spindles in thier original rear steer configuration. Simular to the Scarebird kit I am going to be making caliper mounting brackets/plates to put either C5 Corvette or 07+ Toyota Tundra calipers. The question is can I put the Late spindles on the Early car without adversly affecting the suspension geometry. I am away on training right now so I can't go measuring everything I'd like.

Thanks,

[RivNut]

One thing you have yet to address is the bearings that will let your big rotors ride on whichever spindle. If you have the correct bearing applications, you won't need to change the spindle, and all the original geometry will stay in tact. All you nee to do is make the bracket for the larger caliper that will bolt to the existing spindle; like the Scarebird unit does. The next thing you're going to have to address is a wheel that will clear the cailper and not be so large with a humongus offset that you wind up with the tires rubbing the frame.

Ed

[CTX-SLPR]

I am using the later "small" register drum brake hubs out off of a '67 Wildcat. They use the same BR3 and BR5 combo as either spindle.

My current stock steel wheels, which I do believe are 3 3/8in offset, barely kiss the frame with the current "metric" stock tires. They are also only around 0.50in from hitting the front of the wheel opening. My plan is to use tires of the same overall diameter as the stockers then as wide as I can get under the fenders with all the additional width going to the outside so my backspacing would remain around 3 3/8-1/2in. The caliper clearance shouldn't be an issue with the C5 brakes but the Tundra calipers might require a spacer to get the spokes to clear the 4 piston calipers. The 13.4in rotors require 18in wheels "generaly" while the 12.8in can use 17in wheels. I'm planning a set of 18in American Racing Hopsters with custom backspacing in the 5x5in bolt pattern.

[CTX-SLPR]

Bringing this back up again. Any idea if you can use 2nd Gen (66-70) spindles on a 1st Gen (63-65) Riviera?

[RivNut]

In answer to your basic question - I'll quote from an article from Purevisiondesign about a 64 Riviera named the TikiRiv. (Hawaiian theme.)

This is an artcle about the entire car, not a "how-to" for a brake disc swap. Therefore, you can only hope the the author got the facts right.

Here goes:

"... so the original front brakes had to go. Strope [owner] spent some time cross-referencing numbers in parts books and found that '70 Riviera single piston caliper/one piece rotor and spindle was a bolt on to the 1964 ball joints. .....he took the power master cylinder and proportioning valve, as well as the s???? (fuzzy print on my copy) and brake components. Once he shortened the output shaft of the '64 booster to work with the '70 cylinder, he had a factory engineered disc brake system for the Riv."

It doesn't say whether the 64 had a Delco or a Bendix booster.

Now, for a quick question. Are you planning on doing some high speed road racing that requires 13" brakes?

Ed

[CTX-SLPR]

Got to love Steve Strope. Thanks for the info Ed! I know the ball joints match so I'm hoping with the right Riv steering arms (current ones are Wildcat) this won't affect my bumpsteer or other performance capabilities. I'll be carrying over as much of this setup as possible if I build an upgraded chassis for it in the future.

Why I want bigger disks?

1. Too much braking power is rarely a bad thing if properly balanced

2. Bigger wheels look stupid without decent sized rotors under them

3. I have a complete 94 Impala SS (Caprice 9C1) ABS setup that's awaiting integration

4. The car is an expression of my engineering desires and capabilities

5. I don't like sliding caliper brakes so I'm putting on 4 piston fixed

6. What if I do want to be able to brake hard into corners repeatedly?

Edited September 13, 2009 by CTX-SLPR (see edit history)

[RivNut]

???????? (Surely you have a first name ) We feel as if we're talking to an unknown.

Here's a note I've got in my files from Russ Martin - early Buick guru - that answers your other question:

<TT>Front end specs for Rivieras</TT><TT>></O:p></TT>

<TT></TT>

<TT>Having negative caster will cause the front end to </TT><TT>plow. </TT><TT>I did a lot of testing with </TT><TT>adding positive caster to old cars and found that 2 to </TT><TT>3 degrees positive works wonders with tracking </TT><TT>straight and cornering. The original spec's for </TT><TT>alignment on these old cars was based on the crappy bias ply </TT><TT>tires of the day; the under steer kept people from </TT><TT>driving too fast and spinning out. I just took a 65 </TT><TT>Riv with negative .5 and changed it to positive 2 </TT><TT>degrees, the car was wandering on the freeway and </TT><TT>plowing like mad in a corner. The customer called me </TT><TT>back and told me I worked miracles with his car, he </TT><TT>thought his tires were bad! in addition it gives you </TT><TT>more road feel so it does not steer TOO easy. Try it, </TT><TT>you will be amazed, but you have to tell your shop </TT><TT>what you want or they will use the old spec's - which </TT><TT>are out of date for radial tires. ------ Russ</TT>

[CTX-SLPR]

I honestly just like going by CTX or Sleeper, I really only put my name on PM's. Call it a quirk but I like it that way. On a thread I just remember people screenname not thier real names if even known.

I'll be sure to point that out to the shop when they do the alignment.