307 in a regal? update

[rhb1999]

I have a 1984 Buick Regal 231 V6. I also have a Olds 307 V8. How hard would it be to install. The owners manual says the car only came with V6's, two gas and one diesel. Thanks in advance.

[rocketraider]

www.oldspower.com . They're more in tune to G-body cars over there and a lot of them have made the V6 to Olds V8 swap.

But I would not waste much time transplanting a 307 unless it's all you have. Installing an Olds 350 or 403 is no more work for way more performance, and if not radically built, will run fine in a computerized car.

[joe_padavano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rhb1999</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a 1984 Buick Regal 231 V6. I also have a Olds 307 V8. How hard would it be to install. The owners manual says the car only came with V6's, two gas and one diesel. Thanks in advance. </div></div>

I'll agree with Glenn that a 350 or 403 would be a better swap, but it also depends on whether you need to remain smog legal or not. Note that the later Regals (87-ish) did have the 307 as an option. You'll need the mounts from a Olds-motored G-body (the frames have all the holes pre-drilled). The 77-90 B-body cars use the same mounts and are also a wrecking yard source. If you plan to retain the CCC Qjet and computer control, you'll need the appropriate computer and harness. You'll also need all the brackets, exhaust manifolds, and related parts for the Olds motor, since the Buick V6 is completely different.

To be honest, if emissions compliance is not a concern, a Buick V8 (350 or larger) is probably an easier swap.

[rhb1999]

Thanks for the info, this is the only Olds engine I have. I thought with swapping in 5A heads, maybe a Edelbrock prepped Qjet, Performer intake and headers (if someone makes them) this wouldn't be too bad an engine. How would this engine run without a computer? Also, would the lockup converter work without the computer hooked to the engine and only to the transmission?

[joe_padavano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pfloro</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Food for Thought:

If you need to be 'smog legal' in Florida, a non-computer controlled 307 (or any engine) may not pass. There are lots of variables here. Also, if a visual inspection is performed and they don't see an air pump on this 307, you may be in violation for 'tampering' with emission equipment. A <span style="font-weight: bold">bigger</span> issue may arise if the inspector looks up your model & finds that it only came with V6 engines...</div></div>

You are correct that one needs to be fully versed on state laws before swapping engines, but even California allows swaps of newer (ie, cleaner) engines into older cars, so long as all the appropriate emissions equipment is installed. As an example, in CA, it is perfectly legal to install a 630 HP 2009 ZR1 Corvette motor into a 1990 Camaro so long as the 2009 emissions equipment is also installed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 307, if properly setup, should run fine without the GM CCC (Computer Command Control) system. However, it might easily (IMHO) exceed emission limits. Realize that, 'properly setup', means a non-computer controlled carburetor AND an older GM HEI distributor which uses mechanical & vacuum spark advance. There is also the issue of the EGR valve which is controlled by the computer. Yes, you can do this but it will take some reengineering of the engine management systems.</div></div>

A non-CCC 307 will not pass visual inspection in any state that requires it, so the fact that the EGR requires the computer is irrelevant. You might as well just remove it and blank off the manifold. If you need to pass emissions, you need to retain the CCC system. Period.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The torque converter clutch solenoid gets it's signal directly from the computer. Multiple engine sensors feed information to the ECM (electronic control module) and it determines when to lock & unlock the TCC. <span style="font-weight: bold">ALL</span> the ECM sensors must be in place for the system work... <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">NOW</span></span>..., you could design a simple non-computer circuit to manually lock the converter. I would not recommend this for several reasons (a bit too much information for now)...</div></div>

Or you could just buy and install one of the many commercially available TCC lockup systems sold for installing the 200-4R trans into non-computerized cars. Summit, Jegs, and all the aftermarket automatic transmission specialty houses sell these. Basically it senses road speed, engine vacuum (to determine load), and locks up the converter in high gear.

[rhb1999]

Thanks for the info. The county I live in has never had emissions testing. A neigthboring one did, but it was cut. I was hoping I could put this engine in this car. I've had bad luck with the brand B V6. I was considering going two ways with this car, first, building up the engine like I mentioned for the basis of a bracket racer. second, an stock emission legal street car. Which would mean the finding of a 307 wiring harness, computer, etc. Could I use any of V6 harness? The 630 HP 2009 ZR1 motor into a 1990 Camaro, If the Camaro had been a V6 could this swap still be emissions legal?

[joe_padavano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rhb1999</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Which would mean the finding of a 307 wiring harness, computer, etc. Could I use any of V6 harness?</div></div>

The V6 harness has some different functions and pin assignments. You can remove and replace the specific wires as needed. The Chassis Service Manual has the two wiring diagrams for comparison.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 630 HP 2009 ZR1 motor into a 1990 Camaro, If the Camaro had been a V6 could this swap still be emissions legal? </div></div>

Yup. Again, all CA cares about is that the newer engine has all the equipment that it was certified with. That means the correct catalysts, AIR pump if needed, EGR, computer, etc. The engine really doesn't care which chassis it's bolted into. The one caveat is that you are only allowed to swap within family. For example, you can't put a 454 from a medium duty truck into a passenger car. This is because the truck emissions requirements are more lenient than those for the car for a given year. Again, the rule of thumb is that you are allowed to swap a cleaner engine but not a dirtier engine.

[rhb1999]

Thanks alot, Joe. I have been wondering about this, because I have a 1981 Chevrolet Malibu 2-dr V6 and I found a '87 305HO short block (I've been told that it's a IROC) and would like to build this up with the original throttle body fuel injection and an overdrive. Which brings up another point how about throttle body fuel injection for the 307? Just a thought.

[joe_padavano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rhb1999</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which brings up another point how about throttle body fuel injection for the 307? Just a thought. </div></div>

Since it was never offered from the factory, it would not be emissions legal. If you don't need to be tested, you can either use an aftermarket throttle body system (Accel, Holley, etc) or adapt the TBI system from a Chevy. Summit sells adapter plates to bolt the GM TBI unit to a Holley or Qjet 4bbl intake. The displacement is close enough that the stock 305 computer should run the 307 for a stock motor. If you plan mods, get a Megasquirt or similar aftermarket computer and you can create your own customized fuel and ignition maps.

[rhb1999]

Thanks for your wealth of information. I guess as long as emission testing does not come to your area, you don't have to worry about the type of induction system on your car. But if you intend to keep the car, you might give some thought to making it emissions legal just in case, because, who knows what the state you are living in will do in the future. But it seems funny, that they wouldn't pass a car with a upgraded fuel system, even a bone stock one at that, even though it comes from the same makes of cars, in this case General Motors, but you can put a late model 600HP engine in a previous V6 car. But I guess that's politics. Still, I think it might be interesting to see how this engine would run with fuel injection. If I use the 305 system, the thing I wonder about is all the sensors and switches that come with factory fuel injection and adapting them to the 307. The thing to find would be an '87 Chevrolet fuel injection factory manual.

[joe_padavano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rhb1999</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for your wealth of information. I guess as long as emission testing does not come to your area, you don't have to worry about the type of induction system on your car. But if you intend to keep the car, you might give some thought to making it emissions legal just in case, because, who knows what the state you are living in will do in the future. But it seems funny, that they wouldn't pass a car with a upgraded fuel system, even a bone stock one at that, even though it comes from the same makes of cars, in this case General Motors, but you can put a late model 600HP engine in a previous V6 car. But I guess that's politics. Still, I think it might be interesting to see how this engine would run with fuel injection. If I use the 305 system, the thing I wonder about is all the sensors and switches that come with factory fuel injection and adapting them to the 307. The thing to find would be an '87 Chevrolet fuel injection factory manual. </div></div>

The difference is that the 307 was never certified as a system with the TBI. You could legally install a complete Chevy 305 with TBI and be legal if all the original parts are installed. You cannot mix and match parts to a non-certified configuration. That is the fundamental difference. Again, swapping the LS9 motor out of a new Corvette is completely legal so long as you do not change ANY emissions equipment in the swap. Also, keep in mind that these rules are state-specific. I have quoted the California laws. Your state may vary.

[rhb1999]

Well, I'm stuck with the V6, if emissions testing comes to my area. I guess putting in a carbureted or fuel injected Chevrolet V6 in this Buick would not be legal either because it was never certified for this car and it's a Chevrolet engine not a Buick. And a fuel injected Buick V6 (supercharged) would not fit because they were made for front wheel drive cars only. But, interestingly, a head gasket from one of these and one from a older RWD V6 look almost the same, I wonder if anyone has put one of these fuel injected V6's in a RWD car? or put factory heads and fuel injection on a older V6 block? But that's a question for another forum. Thanks for everything.