34PackardRoadsta Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Dear All,I am putting things back together on my 733, and now need to set the timing. I have two questions:1) In the attached photo you will see the timing indicator and flywheel viewed through the starter port. In the photo, you will see three marks. From left to right, U.P.D.C. #1 with a tick below the C, SPARK #1 with a tick above the R, and an upward directed tick about two letters width past SPARK #1. Which of the latter two tick marks is the correct timing mark to align the pointer?2) How do I tell if cylinder #1 is on the compression or exhaust stroke?Thanks,Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 As far as I know there's No easy way to tell, with these (L) head engines, if you Didn't record how everything was positioned when you took it apart or it's been cranked since then. The way I do it is: with the flywheel pointer at Spark#1, I line the dist. rotor with plug-wire #1 contact, and try to start it. If it doesn't start and backfires thru the carb, I lift the dist and rotate the rotor 180.deg and try it again. I know it's not Scientific, but it works. If you have the valve-cover off, you can watch the #1 valves (both valves all the way down) and put a long large diameter rod down thru the spark-plug hole, to determine the top of the compression-stroke, but that's too complicated for me. (The rod, dowel or tubing needs to large enough to fit the plug hole so it can't fall over and cause damage as the valves come up, and don't use something like a screwdriver, for that same reason. A wood dowel works great, if you have one the correct diameter.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 39Super8 Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 2) How do I tell if cylinder #1 is on the compression or exhaust stroke?There are a few options depending on how much disassembly has occurred. If you have not removed, or drastically adjusted the distributor, simply note the position of #1 plug wire, remove the distributor cap and rotate the engine until the rotor comes around to #1 position. as it comes near, look down at your timing window and watch for the marks to appear.If you have removed the distributor, and not noted positions, the finger over the spark plug hole trick is great. As you feel pressure, watch the timing window for the marks to appear. Failing all else, pull the front valve cover, note which front two valves is intake and exhaust. Rotate engine in normal direction of rotation, the exhaust valve will open and close, followed by the intake valve. As the intake valve is just closing watch the timing window as the marks appear. Good Luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 I see what you mean about the oil sludge behind the flywheel. The tranny definitly needs to be droped to check the clutch for sludge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted February 25, 2008 Author Share Posted February 25, 2008 I am assuming folks agree that the pointer is lined up with the right mark in the photo?OK, I think I will be going with Rick's option of rotating the distributor. I am also going with mark number 2 as the timing mark.I have put everything back together, am getting good spark at the 'right time', but no firing. So, I would say that I did not determine the compression stroke properly (by sticking my pink in the plug hole and feeling for valves. I agree about the tranny. I will drop it 'soon'. Already dropped the oil pan (wee hoo, that was messy). Thanks tons for the help.Cheers,Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 34PackardRoadsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am also going with mark number 2 as the timing mark. </div></div> I think the pointer is at the correct timing mark, in the picture. That's the one I used, and it worked out Okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted February 25, 2008 Author Share Posted February 25, 2008 Thank you all for the help. I got her running. And, I got her timed. One interesting bit, however. It turns out on this car that the rotor will only seat on the drive in one position. So, for example, if #1 cylinder is at TDC, the only way to get the distributor on is for the rotor to be at the #1 position. It won't seat if rotated 180 degrees. From looking at the rotor, it would appear the vanes of the shaft are not centered with respect to the rotor shaft. Anybody else seen this?I have another question, but I am going to do some searching before pestering .Again, thanks tons for your help over the last few weeks. It sure was nice to here the old car jump to life again. And, no issue with it losing power upon warming up!Cheers,Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Tom,Here are copies from my owners manual on spark advance and spark setting. Hope these help...Not sure why one is an attachment the other one displays here. Sorry for poor quality best I can do with the scanner I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted February 25, 2008 Author Share Posted February 25, 2008 Tom,Thanks for the info. Cheers,Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 39Super8 Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Quote "It won't seat if rotated 180 degrees." Yes, I think all the 39 and earlier big 8’s ran an a-symmetrical slot style drive. I found this out when I had my distributor rebuilt and the re-builder put the drive back on the drive shaft, but indexed it 180 degrees out. It was simple enough, just drive the roll pin back out and re-index 180 degrees and drive the roll pin back in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 34PackardRoadsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Rotor won't seat if rotated 180 degrees. </div></div> To rotate the rotor 180.deg, the complete distributor has to be lifted (dist base separated from head), then the rotor (and shaft the rotor sits on) are rotated. Glad to hear you got it Runnin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Rick is right you need to pull it all the way out. Been there done that. I will install it the correct way once I reassemble the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 39Super8 Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Oh, I guess I was wrong about the distributor not dropping in if it is 180 degrees out. My distributor in my 39 320 has an offset slot drive at the bottom of the distributor. If you try to put it in other than in alignment with the slots aligned, it will stand about ¼ inch above the head. The earlier cars must be different. Sorry for the confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 FYI I reduced the size of the one file I attach above so we don't have to pan back and forth to read this thread.Now to figure out why one is an attachment and the other got imbedded?Say Super8 this is what we are talking about we all can learn from each other on how our beloved Packard’s go together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen_Dyneto Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 I didn't note that anyone actually answered your question. With the manual control fully advanced, the spark should occur 29/32 inch at the flywheel rim before upper dead center. Thus, make your own mark from the indicated mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted February 25, 2008 Author Share Posted February 25, 2008 OK, on my 733, if the rotor is currently pointing towards distributor contact # 1, and I remove distributor completely, rotate rotor 180 and reinsert distributor, I can not get the rotor shaft to mesh with the drive in the head. It will with the rotor set for cylinder one firing. It sounds like the 39 is the same? If I need to pull the distributor again, I will photograph the offset flanges at the bottom of the rotor shaft.Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Tom,That would great if you can. If I remember tonight I will shot some pictures of mine for you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 I'm doing this from memory, but the bottom of the ditributor shaft on my 32 is offset so it will only insert one way. However the other end of the shaft where it enteres the distributor body the shaft is rectangular. I believe there are two ways that the dstributor body can be inserted into this square shaft and still line up with the triangular base on the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 34PackardRoadsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I remove distributor completely, rotate rotor 180 and reinsert distributor, I can not get the rotor shaft to mesh with the drive in the head.</div></div>Very strange ???, All 4 distributors I have are symetrical at the keyed drive, on bottom end, and will fit in both ways. I know 2 of of them are from '29 engines, but not sure what the other 2 came from but they are all identical on the bottom end. I sure wish mine were Not, it would have saved a lot of time, when I was determining which way to put them in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted February 25, 2008 Author Share Posted February 25, 2008 I agree that it make the decision about which way to put in the distributor quite easy. I am wondering if the shaft keys/wings have become bent from use and this is why it only fits one way now. I have not been able to get a photo of my shaft yet, but will post it when I do.OK, that sounds kinda gross. I promise to keep all photos family friendly.Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Tom,I read nothing gross there Pictures of my 1931 Distributor Shaft. As you can see bottom half is squared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 39Super8 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Hi Tom,No, your distributor drive slot and tab are not bent; they are intentionally offset 1/16th of an inch in order to allow quick, easy installation. The separate driveshaft assembly that drops through the head has a square drive that is A-symmetrical (offset) from the slot that engages the distributor drive. if the drive shaft is removed from the engine, to the best of my knowledge, you absolutely have to find top dead center compression (TDCC), mate the shaft to the distributor out of the engine, point the rotor to #1 put a reference mark on the shaft to note where the slot needs to be, then install the shaft. If the square of the shaft will not drop in with the slot referenced to your distributor in the right position, and you are definitely on TDCC, then I would check the drive on the distributor. As I indicated on my other post, this drive can be installed 180 degrees out. I hope I am not providing misinformation, I am totally new to Pre-war Packards, and am by no means anyway near as knowledgeable as many of the folks on this site.Best regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 The other thing I did was mark the dampener with a mark on the timing chain cover on the front of the engine at TDC. Another mark already was on the dampener which is surmise where the timing should be set. Not sure why Packard made it difficult to set timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter packard Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 G'day all, I would suggest that the #1 timing mark be marked on the harmonic balancer with white-out or white paint. A wire pointer should be attached to one of the timing case bolts. This will enable you to use a timing light and avoid having to pull the starter to check on timing. You shoud be able to advance the timing a few degrees as today's unleaded is 91 octane compared to around 65 in the late Nineteen Twenties. I included details and a photo on this method in a similar thread about 3-6 months ago. Glad that you have the car running. Owen Dyneto is spot on about lifting the dizzy, raising and rotating the distributor drive 180 degrees to correct a 180 out of phase dizzy. Best regards Peter Toet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 39Super8 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Went out to look at my distributor shaft again. I see the flats of the square drive are offset to the distributor drive flat, but the points of the square drive are in line with the flat. I had a feeling that the resident experts could shed more light on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: peter packard</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I would suggest that the #1 timing mark be marked on the harmonic balancer with white-out or white paint. A wire pointer should be attached to one of the timing case bolts. </div></div>This Won't work with this type balancer, since the outer part of the balancer is supposed to spin some on the inner part of it, so it won't take long for a mark on the outer edge to be in the Wrong place. And since the inner part is very close and hidden by the radiator you can't see a mark there. The inner and outer parts of the balancer have a clutch type material, that it spins on, between them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: peter packard</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Owen Dyneto is spot on about lifting the dizzy, raising and rotating the distributor drive 180 degrees to correct a 180 out of phase dizzy. </div></div> Since I didn't find a post from Owen about this, I suppose you are refering to my post. If so, I'm glad someone agrees with me, since I know all my '29 distributors can be put in Both ways. I just checked my spare '29 engine to make sure. I don't remember about the '37, it may be Nonsymetrical, but I'm not gonna pull it to find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 I just had a thought, Could it be that your lower shaft (the one inside block) is Bent slightly, causing it to appear to have and a nonsymetrical slot in it ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted February 26, 2008 Author Share Posted February 26, 2008 Rick,It is possible that it is bent. I have not had time to go check it again. It did not look bent, but I did not do any measurements.I will hopefully get out to the garage this afternoon. I will pull the distributor and get some photos and measurements.Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: peter packard</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I would suggest that the #1 timing mark be marked on the harmonic balancer with white-out or white paint. A wire pointer should be attached to one of the timing case bolts. </div></div>This Won't work with this type balancer, since the outer part of the balancer is supposed to spin some on the inner part of it, so it won't take long for a mark on the outer edge to be in the Wrong place. And since the inner part is very close and hidden by the radiator you can't see a mark there. The inner and outer parts of the balancer have a clutch type material, that it spins on, between them. </div></div>So Speedster, to confirm what you are saying, does my 32 has the same type of balancer.If it does then I suppose whoever putthe timing mark on there originally wasn't aware of how the balancer worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> does my 32 have the same type of balancer.</div></div>I've seen one that I was told was from a '31 and it was the same as '29s, so I assume the '32s would be the same. There again, the '37 balancer is Not made the same, so not sure when that changed? Of course many design changes were made in '37, in engine and chassis, so logicly that's probably when that changed also. To test it you can use a Timing-light and if it's the spinning type the mark will be jumping all over the place as you increase and decrease RPM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter packard Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 G'day all, I am certain that the Harmonic balancer does not spin within itself, I understand that it resonates within itself to damp out oscillations in the engine dynamics, but the basic integral construction of the balancer does not change. The harmonic balancer is no different to a 1956 Packard. If you put a mark on it, it will still provide a basis for using a timing light etc. The pointer and mark are clearly visible with a powered timing light and in no way hidden. i shall try to dig up my photo's. best regards Peter Toet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Sorry, But I am Certain you are Wrong! It's not the same as the balancer on '56. I've overhauled Both types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter packard Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 I have not overhauled both types so I have to say that I may be wrong in my advice. I am however unaware how a harmonic balancer can work if it can permanently move within itself. I was of the understanding that a harmonic balancer was set in rubber to allow oscillations to be generated counter to the motor harmonics. I am not afraid to be wrong. The thread on the timing of a 30 Packard was by Scott 726 on December 2007. I have used the timing wire and mark on all of my packards and they appear to work well. I obviously have to look at design more closely. Do you have any Packard writings on the functions of the early harmonic balancers? best regards peter Toet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 I mainly know from experience, since I tried to do the same thing on my first Packard which was a 626. I saw that the mark I made was jumping back and forth, using light, and since it was running great I knew there had to be something different about it, from later models, Or there was something wrong with it. Later I took the balancer apart and found the friction material disks between the inner and outer parts. Even tho the parts are a very close fit they are not bonded together with the rubber between them, like later balancers are. It's important to have the correct torque on bolts holding them together, so the correct pressure will be applied to the slip-clutch. I do have a torque spec on that somewhere, if I can find it (probably in the service manual). I've never seen any printed data on the internals of that type balancer, and would have not known about it if I hadn't taken one apart. Recently I did the same to the balancer on my 645, and it was made the same way.Actually the spinning balancer is a very Good design, for dampening out the torque-pulses, since there's no bond to brake loose with age and it seems to do the job very well, Just can't keep an Accurate timing mark on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 If the timing marks on your harmonic balancer are moving then the rubber in your balancer has become unvulcanized from the outer plates. When installed the balancer consists of two heavy plates with internal friction discs and a rubber center, the whole being vulcanized together. The plates definitely will not rotate independently. Steele rubber offers a revulcanization service for Packards 1931-39. They claim timing calibrations will remain intact. We've had half a dozen or so redone over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 '29 balancers were never vulcanized together. Why would it need friction disks, if it was not gonna spin ? You guys can believe what you want, I know I'm Correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Packard part # 195918 Motor Vibration Damper Assembly, correct for 726-33, 740-45, 826-33, 840-45, 901-02, 903-04. My books do not go further back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 This is an interesting thread with interesting and conflicting experience.My question is why would Packard put iming indicator on the flywheel where it is so much easier to see than on the dampener. I plan to research this a bit more awith our Packard club members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Boltendal Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 That's exactly why the dampner is not intended to set your timing.The dampner moves back and forth, when new a bit when worn a lotTDC can and will be found on vibration dampers,when the engine is not running, the TDC mark will be more or less acurate, when the dampner is fully functional that is, but they are certainly not intended to set your timing, with the engine running. The flywheel mark is the only thing to go by, Johan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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