34PackardRoadsta Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Dear All,My post on pin striping has developed a few comments on using or not using copper fuel lines. There have been some other comments, in other mixed topic threads, related to the same issue. However, I thought it might be good to have a separate, and easy to find, discussion on just this topic. It seems like a potentially explosive issue.So, from what I have gleaned:Copper pros:-Flexible-Easy to bend-Easy to flareCopper cons:-Can become brittle with age-Potential corrosion issueWhat are your thoughts?Thanks,Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 I've had No problems with Copper fuel lines. Of course they do need to be clamped securely, so they can't vibrate or rub against anything. I've also used Aluminum for fuel lines in Streetrods and in experimental Aircraft. Again they do need to be securely clamped and they need to be the proper Alloy and Temper (designed for durability). If it's used in aircraft with no problems, that's good enough for me. If you don't like the looks of either one of those you can always paint them. I've never worked with plated lines (chrome or nickel), but I'd think they would be brittle and crack, if Bent any, after plating? (remember the problem with wheel-rings being Brittle after chrome plating) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 RickYou have to bend them to fit, first, then plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Okay, but transporting them from the plating shop and Installing them without bending them some, would be very difficult, if not impossible. At least it would be for Me. But it's not only the plating that may be Brittle, I've heard that the plating process can make the base metal Brittle Also ? (remember the problem with wheel-rings being Brittle after chrome plating) Is that only Steel, or can it change the Temper of all metals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 They do make steel line, that is copper plated for brake lines, so you could retain the look of the copper, but the strength of the steel.. not sure if the make it in other sizes thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Mine are copper and where painted body color. I have some pictures of the frame before it was blasted, maybe we can see the lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Any metal can and will conduct heat. In fuel lines this can cause vapor lock and other problems even from stainless steel. There are places where rubber is better in the car. Fuel injection grade hosing is best rather than regular strength rubber lines for carbs.If they're already on the car live with them a while and see what they do. A cheap flaring tool will flare all metal tubing easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Packin31</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mine are copper and where painted body color. I have some pictures of the frame before it was blasted, maybe we can see the lines. </div></div>Mine were a various colors including including unpainted plain steel and painted copper, but none seem to be the correct nickle plated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Okay, but transporting them from the plating shop and Installing them without bending them some, would be very difficult, if not impossible. At least it would be for Me. But it's not only the plating that may be Brittle, I've heard that the plating process can make the base metal Brittle Also ? (remember the problem with wheel-rings being Brittle after chrome plating) Is that only Steel, or can it change the Temper of all metals? </div></div>I would think that hydrogen embrittlement would only apply to lines where there was extreme amount of force unlike those you would see in oil, gas and vacuum lines. Now brakes lines may be a different story, and if I wanted to have shiny brake lines, I would use stainless. Not having brake lines on my Packard, I don't have to worry about plated brake lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mine were various colors including unpainted plain steel and painted copper, but none seem to be the correct nickle plated. </div></div>Now how did you determine that it was Nickle plated originally? None of my cars had Nickle plating (anywhere), but I don't have a '32, so I'm not sure? The only plating on mine are either German-silver-alloy (which has Nickle in the alloy, along with zink and copper) or Chrome. I remember a thread about that, but can't remember how you determined it should be Nickle plated? I did a search but couldn't find the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Using the PI detailing manual and also consulting with Fred Mauck at PI. I hope it's right because it sure eadd expense and effort to the engine bay detailing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 It probably is correct, but even if it's Not, Nickel should make the Judges happy at car shows, cause as far as Know that's the manual 'They Live By', Isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Sometimes I wish I had a car that they made a million of so I could compare. I've only seen one other 32 in person and that was at the Nethercutt Collection and that was a V12 Dietrich. Even at the PI show in 2007, there were no 32s, only 33 and 34s.I probably won't ever be in a show where the judges will know the difference. I had this interesting conversation with a person who knows 32 Packards very well. He was asked once to judge in a show that had a 32 Packard in the class he was to judged. He asked not to judge that class because he knew two much about 32 Packards that it would be unfair to the Packard owner vs the other cars which he didn't know as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl B. Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Well, 2 more cents worth.. My friend with an early '32, and me with a late'32, both 901s, both have copper fuel lines.... B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen_Dyneto Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Most if not all of the fuel lines I've look at on 33 and up, where it is reasonable to assume they are original, are steel. I've seen what appear to be original copper lines a few times on updraft systems, but not downdraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted February 22, 2008 Author Share Posted February 22, 2008 Interesting discussion. I am curious, however, if there are any safety reasons we should not be using copper for fuel lines. It was my impression, from some other comments I have seen, that there may be a safety hazard in using copper. This is certainly true in the marine environment, where corrosion potential for copper is very high. An engine room fire fueled by diesel when 200 miles offshore is likely deadly. However, I don't see the same problems on shore, as our cars are not immersed in electrolyte (except for amphicars, of course ).Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Let's put it this way- if you have a car with copper fuel or brake lines and they are functioning leave them alone. On the other hand there is no advantage in fabrication of new copper lines to replace steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 The main problem with steel is that it's gonna Rust. Not only Outside but sometime Inside, from moisture condenstion inside the tanks. Since the lines are usually routed inside the frame-rails, they are well protected from damage, so copper or even aluminum work well. It may be different in a high Salt area, but we never see corrosion of copper or aluminum lines here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen_Dyneto Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 If you have a car with copper brake lines, I'd not drive it again until they were replaced with proper double-flared steel lines. Period! No question.I think I also saw something about nickel plating. As far as I know, all underhood plating on Packard engines, Eight, Super Eight and Twelve were nickel plates at least thru 1937 and perhaps right thru the end of these engines in 1939. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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