Copper versus steel fuel lines

[34PackardRoadsta]

Dear All,

My post on pin striping has developed a few comments on using or not using copper fuel lines. There have been some other comments, in other mixed topic threads, related to the same issue. However, I thought it might be good to have a separate, and easy to find, discussion on just this topic. It seems like a potentially explosive issue.

So, from what I have gleaned:

Copper pros:

-Flexible

-Easy to bend

-Easy to flare

Copper cons:

-Can become brittle with age

-Potential corrosion issue

What are your thoughts?

Thanks,

Tom

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I've had No problems with Copper fuel lines. Of course they do need to be clamped securely, so they can't vibrate or rub against anything.

I've also used Aluminum for fuel lines in Streetrods and in experimental Aircraft. Again they do need to be securely clamped and they need to be the proper Alloy and Temper (designed for durability). If it's used in aircraft with no problems, that's good enough for me.

If you don't like the looks of either one of those you can always paint them. I've never worked with plated lines (chrome or nickel), but I'd think they would be brittle and crack, if Bent any, after plating? (remember the problem with wheel-rings being Brittle after chrome plating)

[West Peterson]

Rick

You have to bend them to fit, first, then plate.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Okay, but transporting them from the plating shop and Installing them without bending them some, would be very difficult, if not impossible. At least it would be for Me.

But it's not only the plating that may be Brittle, I've heard that the plating process can make the base metal Brittle Also ? (remember the problem with wheel-rings being Brittle after chrome plating)

Is that only Steel, or can it change the Temper of all metals?

[Guest Albert]

They do make steel line, that is copper plated for brake lines, so you could retain the look of the copper, but the strength of the steel.. not sure if the make it in other sizes thought...

[Tom M]

Mine are copper and where painted body color. I have some pictures of the frame before it was blasted, maybe we can see the lines.

[Twitch]

Any metal can and will conduct heat. In fuel lines this can cause vapor lock and other problems even from stainless steel. There are places where rubber is better in the car. Fuel injection grade hosing is best rather than regular strength rubber lines for carbs.

If they're already on the car live with them a while and see what they do. A cheap flaring tool will flare all metal tubing easily.

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Packin31</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mine are copper and where painted body color. I have some pictures of the frame before it was blasted, maybe we can see the lines. </div></div>

Mine were a various colors including including unpainted plain steel and painted copper, but none seem to be the correct nickle plated.

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Okay, but transporting them from the plating shop and Installing them without bending them some, would be very difficult, if not impossible. At least it would be for Me.

But it's not only the plating that may be Brittle, I've heard that the plating process can make the base metal Brittle Also ? (remember the problem with wheel-rings being Brittle after chrome plating)

Is that only Steel, or can it change the Temper of all metals? </div></div>

I would think that hydrogen embrittlement would only apply to lines where there was extreme amount of force unlike those you would see in oil, gas and vacuum lines. Now brakes lines may be a different story, and if I wanted to have shiny brake lines, I would use stainless. Not having brake lines on my Packard, I don't have to worry about plated brake lines.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mine were various colors including unpainted plain steel and painted copper, but none seem to be the correct nickle plated. </div></div>

Now how did you determine that it was Nickle plated originally? None of my cars had Nickle plating (anywhere), but I don't have a '32, so I'm not sure? The only plating on mine are either German-silver-alloy (which has Nickle in the alloy, along with zink and copper) or Chrome. I remember a thread about that, but can't remember how you determined it should be Nickle plated? I did a search but couldn't find the thread.

[tbirdman]

Using the PI detailing manual and also consulting with Fred Mauck at PI. I hope it's right because it sure eadd expense and effort to the engine bay detailing.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

It probably is correct, but even if it's Not, Nickel should make the Judges happy at car shows, cause as far as Know that's the manual 'They Live By', Isn't it?

[tbirdman]

Sometimes I wish I had a car that they made a million of so I could compare. I've only seen one other 32 in person and that was at the Nethercutt Collection and that was a V12 Dietrich. Even at the PI show in 2007, there were no 32s, only 33 and 34s.

I probably won't ever be in a show where the judges will know the difference. I had this interesting conversation with a person who knows 32 Packards very well. He was asked once to judge in a show that had a 32 Packard in the class he was to judged. He asked not to judge that class because he knew two much about 32 Packards that it would be unfair to the Packard owner vs the other cars which he didn't know as well.

[Earl B.]

Well, 2 more cents worth.. My friend with an early '32, and me with a late'32, both 901s, both have copper fuel lines.... B

[Owen_Dyneto]

Most if not all of the fuel lines I've look at on 33 and up, where it is reasonable to assume they are original, are steel. I've seen what appear to be original copper lines a few times on updraft systems, but not downdraft.

[34PackardRoadsta]

Interesting discussion. I am curious, however, if there are any safety reasons we should not be using copper for fuel lines. It was my impression, from some other comments I have seen, that there may be a safety hazard in using copper. This is certainly true in the marine environment, where corrosion potential for copper is very high. An engine room fire fueled by diesel when 200 miles offshore is likely deadly. However, I don't see the same problems on shore, as our cars are not immersed in electrolyte (except for amphicars, of course ).

Tom

[Twitch]

Let's put it this way- if you have a car with copper fuel or brake lines and they are functioning leave them alone. On the other hand there is no advantage in fabrication of new copper lines to replace steel.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

The main problem with steel is that it's gonna Rust. Not only Outside but sometime Inside, from moisture condenstion inside the tanks. Since the lines are usually routed inside the frame-rails, they are well protected from damage, so copper or even aluminum work well.

It may be different in a high Salt area, but we never see corrosion of copper or aluminum lines here.

[Owen_Dyneto]

If you have a car with copper brake lines, I'd not drive it again until they were replaced with proper double-flared steel lines. Period! No question.

I think I also saw something about nickel plating. As far as I know, all underhood plating on Packard engines, Eight, Super Eight and Twelve were nickel plates at least thru 1937 and perhaps right thru the end of these engines in 1939.