Engine missing

[Guest Packardsforever]

I've got a 1939 120 sedan that I'm not planning on keeping. I drove it around the block today and it was missing and not getting power. It has new distributor, rebuilt carb. it idles pretty good but has a miss or kind of like a little pop that is consistent.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Are you trying to get someone to List the Hundreds of things that can cause that? If so, I'm Not.

What have you checked, to try to fix it ? I just wanted to see how Long your List is.

If your list is Not very Long then you should probably take it to Someone that knows cars, and 'Has a Long List'. LOL

Sorry about that, But that's the way it IS, in the 'Land of Problems Lists'.

[Guest peter packard]

You may have a sticking valve. There are a number of "down the carby" products which are designed to free sticking valves while you are revving the engine. ( not WFO, but at about 2,500 rpm) It may also be some aspect of the rebuilt carb, or new distributor that is not right.

Check out the ignition system first with a diagnostic meter, then the fuel system. It would be very useful to hook up a vacuum gauge to the carby as it will dreadily show up sticking valves etc. The gauge normall has some instructions with it. Good Luck. Peter Toet

[Matt Harwood]

Possibly electrical. Check the easy stuff: grounds, spark plug routing, cap/rotor, coil, battery voltage, spark plugs.

I'd also check fuel pump output.

[Guest Packardsforever]

How do you check the fuel pump outlet? Here is what has been done recently:

2000-present

fuel pump+vacuum advance rebuilt

water pump rebuilt

new sylphon thermostat

new standard size pistons, rings, valves springs

new main+rod bearings

rebuilt dist.

rebuilt carb.

[Matt Harwood]

With all that work done, I'll bet lunch that it's electrical somewhere other than the distributor.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, the Ignition system and timing need to be checked first. Problems with the fuel-supply system usually cause the engine to die or cutout when speeding up, not misfire.

Was it running good after all the work was done and it just started the problem or has it not run well since all the work was done? Being overhauled components, doesn't mean they were repaired correctly (example: there could still be a problem with the distributor adjustments).

I'm guessing that all the work was done by someone else, not yourself. So are you now going to try to troubleshoot it yourself?

If all the work was done by repair shops and paid mechanics, then you should probably take it back to one of them that has a good warranty on their work, to get it rechecked.

If you're doing it yourself, and you have no experience, let us know what test you are doing and we will try to give assistance with what is needed to do that test. Like was said, there's just too many possible problem areas to generalize on a problem cause.

[Tom M]

When I first saw this subject I thought what someone stole your engine. All kidding aside now when my car was running I had a similar problem and what I found was the key in the ignition coil when turned to a certain point the car would stumble, sputter etc. Not sure if the ’39 is the same but it may be something else to check.

[Guest Packardsforever]

It still has the original wiring in many areas.

[Guest Packardsforever]

This has become a problem after the carb. was rebuilt and reinstalled.

[West Peterson]

It will amaze you how many problems get solved with getting your wiring house in order. Replace 'em all. Also, you might want to think about replacing your battery to starter cable with 00 gauge, even though 0 gauge is what it came with.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Packardsforever</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This has become a problem after the carb. was rebuilt and reinstalled. </div></div>

The most common problems with a Carb are an improper fuel-air mixture. The choke valve could be not opening properly, when it should (which is a common problem with late '30 cars, when the temperature controled activator fails or not adjusted properly). The float level, which operates the needle-valve inside carb, could be adjusted to low, limiting fuel available at higher engine speeds. There could be an Air leak at gaskets between carb and manifold. Did you install it or do you know if proper gaskets were used and that mounting bolts were tightened properly? The fuel pressure from pump to carb can be tested with the proper equipment, which is a good idea if you have unknown condition of both pump and carb. Check for partially blocked fuel filters, both external and internal to carb. There are many others but that's what I would check first.

If you can't check these things find someone that can.

[Guest Packardsforever]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Packardsforever</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This has become a problem after the carb. was rebuilt and reinstalled. </div></div>

The most common problems with a Carb are an improper fuel-air mixture. The choke valve could be not opening properly, when it should (which is a common problem with late '30 cars, when the temperature controled activator fails or not adjusted properly). The float level, which operates the needle-valve inside carb, could be adjusted to low, limiting fuel available at higher engine speeds. There could be an Air leak at gaskets between carb and manifold. Did you install it or do you know if proper gaskets were used and that mounting bolts were tightened properly? The fuel pressure from pump to carb can be tested with the proper equipment, which is a good idea if you have unknown condition of both pump and carb. Check for partially blocked fuel filters, both external and internal to carb. There are many others but that's what I would check first.

If you can't check these things find someone that can. </div></div>

I have a 39 shop manual, will I be able to check these areas by looking at it? I haven't pulled it out yet. Lets start with the choke valve. Can you tell me exactly how to check to see if it's working properly and then the how to check/adjust flost level. Thank you.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Checking the Choke is very simple. Pull the air-cleaner off and look down into Carb. The choke is the butterfly valve at very top inside carb. When the engine is cold the valve should be almost closed and as engine warms up the valve should start to open and should be completely open within a few minutes if engine is run above idle speed. If the '39 is like the '37 then there is a linkage rod from the choke shaft down to the exhaust manifold and on the manifold is a coil-spring type thermostat under a round cover, that pulls and pushes on the rod. Maybe someone else can verify that '39 has same type thermostat or not? If you don't want to run the engine to heat it up you can heat the manifold and thermostat directly with a blow-torch or something similar to verify that it operates.

To check the float level is Not so easy. The top of carb has to be removed. There are small delicate parts there, so I would not recommend that you attempt that without some experienced help.

[Guest Packardsforever]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Checking the Choke is very simple. Pull the air-cleaner off and look down into Carb. The choke is the butterfly valve at very top inside carb. When the engine is cold the valve should be almost closed and as engine warms up the valve should start to open and should be completely open within a few minutes if engine is run above idle speed. If the '39 is like the '37 then there is a linkage rod from the choke shaft down to the exhaust manifold and on the manifold is a coil-spring type thermostat under a round cover, that pulls and pushes on the rod. Maybe someone else can verify that '39 has same type thermostat or not? If you don't want to run the engine to heat it up you can heat the manifold and thermostat directly with a blow-torch or something similar to verify that it operates.

To check the float level is Not so easy. The top of carb has to be removed. There are small delicate parts there, so I would not recommend that you attempt that without some experienced help. </div></div>

So when it's warm and at idle the butterfly valve will not be open all the way? But if engine is warm and run a little higher than idle it will be open all the way?

[Guest imported_Speedster]

The choke valve is controled by the temperature of the exhaust manifold. If the manifold is Cold the choke valve should be almost Closed, and when manifold gets Hot choke-valve should Open. I suggested you run engine at higher RPM than Idle to Heat it up quicker, if you don't have a torch to do it.

[Guest Packardsforever]

O.K. it hasn't been started since Sunday and it's been really cold but it fired right up the first time. I let it run at idle (which seems to high) about 3 or 4 minutes and it started kind of popping and/or backfiring a little and quit. It would not restart, I did find what appears a small leak in the fuel pump. It also was putting out kind of whitish smoke at first and then darker. Any clues? Should I remove the fuel pump?

[Guest imported_Speedster]

So, did the choke check out Okay ?

Everything you described sounds like a closed choke valve.

[Guest Packardsforever]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So, did the choke check out Okay ?

Everything you described sounds like a closed choke valve. </div></div>

O.K. after it had been running about 2 minutes I noticed it was open a little bit. So I went in the house to get something upstairs which is over the garage where the Packard was running. I was up there about 4 more minutes and I heard it popping and kind of backfiring and then it quit. If it is the choke valve how do I get to stay open when it's warmed up?

[Guest imported_Speedster]

If it was not open when the car died, you can pull on the linkage rod with your hand to open it (be careful, it gets Hot). It should move freely, with only slight resistance, not stuck or binding.

You can disconnect the linkage rod to manually open the choke as it warm up, also. If it's not stuck or binding the thermostat coil is probably defective, and will need to be replaced. I've heard that replacement thermostats for '39s are difficult to find, so if it is bad, maybe someone else on forum can tell you where to get one, or you may have to install a push/pull type choke cable to get it operating.

[Guest Packardsforever]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If it was not open when the car died, you can pull on the linkage rod with your hand to open it (be careful, it gets Hot). It should move freely, with only slight resistance, not stuck or binding.

You can disconnect the linkage rod to manually open the choke as it warm up, also. If it's not stuck or binding the thermostat coil is probably defective, and will need to be replaced. I've heard that replacement thermostats for '39s are difficult to find, so if it is bad, maybe someone else on forum can tell you where to get one, or you may have to install a push/pull type choke cable to get it operating. </div></div>

Where exactly is the thermostat coil?

[Guest imported_Speedster]

There should be a linkage rod from top of carb, back toward rear of engine, to the exhaust manifold. I think the thermostat is in the manifold under a cover at the end of that rod, if it is similar to '37s.

That is the area of the manifold (where the thermostat is) that needs to be heated with torch to test it.

[Guest Packardsforever]

Here is a pic of the carb on my 39 I think I'm having trouble with.

Here's a link to the picture:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2307/2221645993_4dbd20fed8_b.jpg

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Okay that carb is a later design. The choke is built into carb on that one. It's the large round protrusion on top back side of carb (or left side, if using the car as reference),(at very top of picture). There's probably 3 small screws that lock the adjusting dial in place. Loosen those screws (Don't remove them), then you can turn Dial to Adjust choke. It may only need adjusting. If facing back side of dial (same direction as picture was taken), the choke would be adjusted, to open more and sooner, by turning it clockwise.

But before adjusting it make sure a Heat tube from manifold (I think that's it on left side of picture) is connected to the bottom of that choke housing and to manifold. If the tube was not connected properly the choke coil behind that dial would not get hot and would Not operate. With that design hot air has to get from manifold to choke thru that tube.

If that is not the original type carb (I don't think it is) and if someone has modified the choke system, with a heat-riser tube, then it may not be operating because Not enough hot air is getting to choke, thru that long tube? (The tube appears to be Much longer than they normally are and it may not be connected at the manifold end for proper heat flow)

[Guest Packardsforever]

O.K. so is it the right carb for this model? Where can I find it's identification numbers to verify what exactly it is? I'm going to take a few more pics because I'm not sure exactly what you are talking about.

[Guest Packardsforever]

Here is the carb from the other side:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2340/2223526130_87cb2acebd_b.jpg

[Guest imported_Speedster]

The choke is the round thing in the middle of the picture, with the tubing attached to it.

With that model the tubing fitting will need to be loosened along with the 3 screws, to be able to adjust it. I can see the adjustment marks in the dial and it appears to be adjusted too far to right (clockwise), when viewed from that direction, which would Hold it Closed. I think the center mark should be almost vertical (at top) (usually about 2 tic marks from vertical).

When tightening the screws and fitting, tighten the screws first, so tightening the fitting will not change your adjustment setting. Don't over tighten them, they only need to be tight enough to hold them in place and not move.

Did you check where the tubing from it goes to, in manifold? Does it go into a hole in manifold or what?

I wish someone with '39 experience would help out here, since I don't know what the original choke system was for '39, but as I said I think it had a linkage rod to a thermostat mounted in manifold. I couldn't find any pictures of '39.

If you could locate a parts or service Manual, you may be able to determine what the original system looked like.

[Guest Packardsforever]

I have a shop manual and will see what I can find. I did go out and inspect the choke thermostat and the bottom screw was very loose and the other two were tight. Could that be the problem? I got so much crap going on right now but I'm more interested in this Packard but only have limited time. I really appreciate all the help advice you are giving me.

[Guest Packardsforever]

Here is what I found in my shop manual:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2192/2223509227_76d4383759.jpg?v=0

[Guest imported_Speedster]

That is the type choke that mounts in manifold (same as '37), so the carb has been replaced with a different type.

So you definitely need to find out how the heat-riser tube connects to exhaust manifold. I'm pretty sure that's where the problem is. The choke needs adjusting, Also, tho.

I don't think the choke will ever work properly with that setup unless someone has drilled into the manifold and inserted the tube into it. Tubing with a sealed end would have to be a press-fit in the hole. (don't want exhaust gases getting in the tube or out of the hole)

So you will probably need to find the original type carb and choke (very difficult to find a good choke like that) or install a push/pull cable mounted under dash (which will not be easy either, with that type carb with internal choke, but I think that is what I would do. The internal choke will need to be disabled and the cable attached to choke linkage-arm on the other side of carb.

Either that or adjust the choke so it's open all the time. The choke needs to be closed Only when the engine is cold. If it starts with it open, that is. You will just have to wait a few minutes for it warm up before driving it.

Or Only drive it in Summer.

[tbirdman]

Everytime I see this thread I keep thinking to myself I hope they find that missing engine.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, the thread Should have been titled 'Choke Missing' LOL

[Ron of Chicago]

I agree with the information that speedster has been giving. As to the choke heat tube is concerned, it could have a universal tube on it. They have a tube with a bulb on one end that is to be fixed to the exhaust manifold. As the bulb heats up, heat is transferred to the choke thermostat via the tube. That means that there is no drilling needed.

39 Packard carbs did have a thermostatic coil similar to the one shown but the screws that held the coil tight need to be only two not three. Also, the heat tube will not be connected in the middle of the coil housing but comes from the bottom of the housing.

According to my "Motors Manual" the carb for the 36 to 41 Packard was a "WA1" model and the part number will be 477S. The 37 to 39 also had a "W1" model with a part number 359S.

These are Carter Carburators.

Also it may be a good idea to turn the coil so that there is no choke action to be sure that that is where your problem is. You will probably have to pump the gas pedal multiple times to get the car to start when cold and work the throttle once running to keep it there till it warms up. I have a Cutlass that has been working like this for years.

Hope this helps.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

For some reason they don't want to tell us how the heat-riser tube is connected to exhaust-manifold, Maybe it's Not connected?

Either that or they don't know what the exhaust-manifold Looks Like? LOL

Yes, I'm trying to 'Shame' you into telling us More.