Dorothy's tear down - it's getting depressing....

[Gary_N]

OK, I've been getting excited about pulling the motor. Body panels and such are fine, but I like the engine stuff. The rest of the work is...well.... work. Anyway, I wanted to pull off some of the weight before I go yanking the 322 out. And, I thought I might as well take off the water pump, etc. Anyway, here's what the inside of the water pump and thermostat housing look like. Should I start getting a little worried about this motor? I mean can you say rust!

Also, this really was just too wierd. I pulled the carb off since I was thinking I would use the engine puller plate that sites on the manifold. (Is this a bad idea?). Anyway, literally, it looked like a dog did his business inside he carb. I mean a cigar size one was sitting in there. Man, I am getting really tired of cleaning out droppings, and now, the larger stuff. This is getting to be like the working for the local septic tank cleaner!

Gary

[Gary_N]

OK, my browser is doing weird stuff. I guess these pics are too big? Sorry if I mess anybody up here!

"I resized them for you, Gary!" Wayne

Gary

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

Bad dog Toto, bad bad bad dog.....

or maybe it was those monkey looking things

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

RUST, there, not to hard for me to say

what did you expect to find in a water manifold and pump?

Not to worry anyhow, you are looking for a 56 322 aren't you.

here's a program that might help with the big pictures

http://www.resize.it/

[Guest BJM]

That's why it's called restoration Gary. You'll be fine. I am "there" now, having reduced three perfectly good cars to piles of parts in the last 2 years.

[Dandy Dave]

Looks like the one of the previous owners could not afford anti freeze..... It is best to do a complete tear down anyway and see what you have before proceeding. I have also been there and brought back some very ugly stuff from the dead. Dave!

[Gary_N]

Mr. E: I found a '56 322. But the purest in me has been rearing its head. And, I can buy a 401 for the same price, and both seem expensive at $650, especially since they don't run.

I did expect rust, but it seems like the only thing passing throw the cooling system is rust and dust. I just wonder what the block looks like. Well, I hope to have that down to the machine shop soon. If the block is OK, and the jackets can be cleaned out, the rest of the stuff can be replaced. On another note, at least nothing was living inside the intake manifold...at least that I can see. Judging by the amount of nests built on the block, I'd say Dorothy hasn't run in many, many, many years.

Not sure if it spins since I need a bigger socket for the crank pulley. Must be 1 1/4. Sears here I come!

Gary

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

Patience grasshopper, a 56 322 and D'flow someone rebuilt as part of a resto and gave up on will come along by the time you get to that part. A 401 is going to be a hell of a lot more work. But if want to race...

If you decide on a 322 be looking into whether or not the tranny and front spindles from a 56 Century will interchange or not. I have something that may work if so.

[Rooster]

Gary, I go along with Lamar on this one. Leave the motor until further on down the track. Get stuck into more important jobs like body etc.

Many times I've gone and rebuilt parts at great effort / expense only to pick up a good one later on at a Swap Meet which could have saved me a lot of hassle.

Keep us posted if you take the 401 option.

Ken ( aka Rooster)

1929

1954(Ir)

[Guest imported_Thriller]

If you're really hot to trot on a '56 322 and Dynaflow, I've got one...of course, I'll insist you take the entire car, but I'll make you a deal...of course, it would probably cost more to ship it half way across the continent than it's worth.

[Gary_N]

Derek, I was born in Canada. Does that offer me a "family" discount as it were? Only kidding.....I'm so fickle on this car right now, I think I'll take Rooster's advice and stay on the body and chassis stuff. My Brother has a nice 401 anyway, although in southern California, that I can have for free if I want. Really, I want to keep Dorothy/Frankie stock. I was only thinking of hiding a '56 322 in there, since numbers will not match, and so what anyway, for the extra 55 ponies. But I know how much horsepower can cost since I spent a ton of time and money on a Corvette trying to get more HP. Sometimes, it's just now worth expense. Did I just say that?

Anyway, the good news is that I've cleaned out the garage and washed away about 9 pounds of Kansas mud and droppings, so I can go about the business of continuing the stripping of parts.

I was also able to clear out an area in my woods near the garage, so, I can hide all manner of parts that I really don't need but don't want to dump just yet. So, it was a good, though tiring day.

Gary

[Rooster]

Geez, I'm glad I didn't take on Dorothy. All that nasty accumulated "stuff"

I don't reckon she would have made it through Australian quarantine.

Ken ( aka Rooster)

1929

1954(Ir)

[Guest Albert]

i guess that would be a good ad for Prestone

[Gary_N]

Well, I did get Dorothy's 322 to turn.....exactly 3/4's in either direction. Wonder what's busted in there. I really can't wait to get it our and have a look. I know, I know, leave the motor till later, but, I can't wait.

Gary

[JohnD1956]

Step back and take a deep breath. The 322 is probably roasted and continuing to try and turn it over is likely to do more damage to cylinder walls.

At times like this I think one should back up and start with a pencil and paper, to see just what has to be done and then put things in the order in which they should be done.

Who knows, the free 401 may be the best alternative once everything is accessed and debated.

JD

[Gary_N]

I keep thinking about that 401, but then the issues seem to mount going that route. Tonight I was working on getting the column out since Frankie does not have power steering. I love the manual..."clean the unit with solvent first before removing". How about "clean off the caked on mud, bees nest, rodent droppings and misc yuk first". Two hours later and I can finally see the heads of the bolts. Anyway, the column is so close to the the exhaust now it's a wonder the fluid doesn't boil. So, is a 401 the same exterior dimensions? Then what about the power steering, exhaust, rear end, and on and on and on.....so....I'm still in the stock mode. By the way, not not only have I been offered a 401 for free, an earlier email today has revealed a '56 322 with my name on, again for free. I must be getting popular. Well, you get what you pay for, correct??

By the way, is there anything on a Buick that is not HEAVY?

Gary

[Guest imported_Thriller]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gary_N</div><div class="ubbcode-body">By the way, is there anything on a Buick that is not HEAVY? </div></div>

Well, when you get round about 4000 lbs, each nut and bolt add up...I even struggled a bit with the front seat from the Wildcat...I'm no weightlifter, but being the son of a Saskatchewan farmer, I can toss a few things around

[Dandy Dave]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">By the way, is there anything on a Buick that is not HEAVY? </div></div>

Buick nothing, You should try a Cat Model 12 Road Grader someday. Weighs in at 22,000 pounds. I had to pull the motor, Cab, lift off the frame to get the transmission and final drives to remove a broken differential housing. I guess I'm just a gluttin fur punishment. Dave!

[Gary_N]

Ah, Dave, where do you drive that thing around.....grading things?? And yes, you have me beat. I think I'm going to build a rolling electric hoist to use to pick stuff up. I'm getting tired of cranking and it looks like, second to a Cat Model 12, there's still a lot of heavy stuff to pick up and move around.

Gary

[Dandy Dave]

Actually I use a 1952 Hanson Model 41 Track Crane to hoist the grader parts. It has a capacity of 13 and 1/2 Tons at a 15 foot radius. Also I have a Massy Ferguson 30D loader backhoe, it does a good job hefting smaller items, say a ton or less. The Cat 12 is one of only 52 built with a gas engine (G4600). Thousands were built with Diesels. Dave!

[JohnD1956]

Dave , the jobs you do are amazing. Just the sound of them are scary. But I don't think you need anything that big Gary.

Let me see if I have this straight.

You have dorothy which is basically too far gone to work with. It will basically be the donor car. And you have Frankie which will be the survivor, right? So you're pulling Dorothy apart for what you need to complete Frankie?

Just being curious, what parts are you pulling from Dorothy, and which parts are already removed?

JD

[Gary_N]

JD:

Dorothy is a mud bog. And, and a home for all manner of life. I found dog size business in the carb alone. I've finally gotten used to this, but it took awhile. Anyway, the body is basically very sound, but the rear quarters were hit hard. Mr. E. found Frankie, which is a very nice '54 Super. The body is very straight and with no rust. Only the floors need some work. But, Frankie is a Super and missing the front end sheet metal, the entire interior, and the motor. So, Dorothy, the Roadmaster, is going to donate front fenders and wells, which have been preserved quite nicely with Kansas mud, and some other Roadmaster things like interior parts, dash, etc.

I've been trying to figure out how to proceed with other things. Today my radiator guy said $1,000 to do the radiator. Frankie needs Dorothy's steering since he's not power. And, there's a whole host of other things to thing about, like....should I be a real purist here, or maybe do some mods like say.... a '56 motor and trans, etc. Then what about a/c??? So, for the moment, Dorothy is providing sheet metal and interior. The mechanicals remain to be seen.

And, my check book hurts!

Gary

[Dandy Dave]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave , the jobs you do are amazing. Just the sound of them are scary. But I don't think you need anything that big Gary. </div></div>

Yes sir JD. I'm just trying to let Gary know that there are tougher challenges. This way he will feel better about his undertaking of bringing a 54 Buick back to life. Keep focused on one piece at a time. complete that part of the job and then move on to the next piece of the puzzel. Before you know it things will start to come together. Looking at the "Big Picture" all at once can be overwhelming. Keep your head up Gary, you'll do fine. Dave!

Say, I know where theres a D-9 Cat for sale in Ohio. Just needs the trans put back together and reinstalled. Any takers??? He hee,

[Rooster]

Gary. Be cool !! Dave offers some great advice. Having been there and done that with my 1929, try and stay focused with one job at a time . I know how it can be exciting like a kid in a lolly shop to jump in and strip down parts ( eg. engine ) Some advice for what it's worth --avoid stripping the whole car in one hit. You may end up with a workshop full of parts and not know where to start to re-build. This is where many would be restorers fall in a heap because the task then appears too daunting.

For example , as you take off the chrome/ /stainless pieces, have them polished then put away. Bumpers, the same.

Try and have the body taken off chassis complete as possible.

Re-build the chassis and front end, maybe leave the rear end until you decide which motor to use ( 322 or 401)

Then do body work have it painted then put back on chassis.

Then you can look at doors , fenders, trunk , hood etc.

Then the last thing to do would be interior. It's all a structured process from strip down to re-build. It looks like you will have no end of support from a great bunch of blokes, none better than the Guru Mr. E

I'll be sneaking a peek every now and then to hear about positive progress.

Good Luck !!

Ken ( aka Rooster)

1929

1954(Ir)

[Guest rlbleeker]

I agree, one thing at a time. Don't take something apart unless you plan on putting it back together, the fewer parts you have laying around the better. A body off restoration is an incredible amount of work, but very managable.

Dave, where did you get your grader? My great uncle used to have one, gas powered. I've got a '47 Insley excavator; 26,000# that's a big toy.

[Gary_N]

As usual, good advice to heed. The problem for me at the moment is space. I have three '54's here and one has to go, that one being the first parts car, which is not yielding much in the way of parts, and just taking up space. But, he's outside on the trailer for the neighbors to see, kinda. The garage is full and I have not really stripped everything. But I do want to get the engine out of Dorothy and let is sit on the stand if need be. I had been planning to get Frankie off the frame since the body is for the most part excellent. I also want to do the same with Dorothy. At that point I could figure out which frame to use. Then move Dorothy out of the way on a cart, and leave the balance of stuff to take off later. With Frankie on a body cart as well, I could then make one good chassis out of two.

My Brother offered to send me a running 401 out of one of his cars. So, I can't say no. Still not sure what do, but, if someone is going to give you a perfectly good nailhead, your supposed to accept, correct?

And, I can't believe you guys are restoring road graders and tanks. Makes me feel like I'm working on a tinker toy!!!

Gary

[Dandy Dave]

rlbleeker, I got the grader from right around the corner from where I live. It belonged to some good friends of mine that have been in the excavating business for years and the best part is that it was free for the taking. They know what a glutton I am for saving old stuff and knew that I would not junk it. They said it belonged to a town highway department before they got it but could not remember which town. It is the 17th one built. Suffix is 6M. It is said that only 52 of these gas units were built. I even have all the hood sides that cover the engine which is a rarity in itself. It is still a work in progress at this point. I have acquired another differential case for it that came from Weller's out in Kansas. A 47 Insley. Cool....I guess you and I could have fun hoisting li'l ol Buicks around all day and stack them like Matchboxes if we wanted to. Dave!

[Dandy Dave]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I can't believe you guys are restoring road graders and tanks. </div></div>

Road graders yes. Tanks... oh yeah! There's an outfit in England doing those. He hee Dave!

[Gary_N]

Dave: So, do you have any pictures of these large toys you play with?? Gary

[Guest imported_Thriller]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1DandyDaves</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I can't believe you guys are restoring road graders and tanks. </div></div>

Road graders yes. Tanks... oh yeah! There's an outfit in England doing those. He hee Dave! </div></div>

To sort of keep this on the subject of Buicks, it wasn't that long ago that I saw a show about the M-18 (if I remember correctly) Hellcat tank destroyers. It was neat learning the part they played in WWII. There was a fellow in the southwest US that was restoring one. One of the veterans invited to a show / demonstration turned out to be one of the crew of that particular Hellcat.

Unfortunately, the show made no reference to Buick factories being involved in the production of Hellcats.

[Dandy Dave]

OK, From the beggining......Yeah, There's a Grader in there!

Here it is out in the open.

And another view.

This is what it looked like when I got it. Belive it or not, I spent about a half a day cleaning the mag and carbuetor and drove it out of where it was. It sat there all of 25 or 30 years and the motor still turned! It wasn't until after that, that I found the broken case. I'll have to search for some of the tear down pictures. Oh yeah, it is a 1940.

It is so ugly, It's Beautiful! Dave!

[Gary_N]

All I can say is WOW!

[Dandy Dave]

Tear down photos. Cat 12......

Motor-less

A rare sight indeed. This is the same as the diesel block (D4600) only with a gas head, manifold, magneto. carburetor and Govenor which designated it as a G4600. D=Diesel, G=Gas in Cat lingo.

The Cab is off! That's the Hanson Model 41 Crane in the background. It is one of about 118 built. It is a 1952 and only 6 were built that year. It totes a 1/2 yard drag hoe but works well when there is heavy stuff to lift.

This is the whole reason the tear down was neccesary. There was a crack in the case that went almost all the way around it plus the side blew out after driving it for only a very short time. That's the ring gear and carrier bearing your looking at!

The frame also has been lifted off of the rear drive wheels at this point and the trans and differential housing have been separated. As stated before, I have aquired another case and other parts to reassemble everything. I just pick up some old cat yellow paint about a week ago to start cleaning and painting as I put it back together. This project took a back seat to my 15 Buick last year as I had to make drive axles for that. We all have our prioritys and it is easier to pick up chicks in a Buick! Dave!

[Guest rlbleeker]

Nice excavator Dave. What Buick collector could be without one. The Insley is a '47 and straight eight powered, unfortunately not a Buick. My grader is a 1940 Adams. Looks like you have a Fordson back there too.

[Dandy Dave]

That looks like a nice old Insley. I helped a friend with one and I think his had a straight 8 Packard engine if I remember right. I had a Dopekey toy of an Adams grader. Very cool. The Fordson belonged to the Connecticut Yankee. He's well known in the vintage tractor and construction equipment circles. He sets up and sell T shirts of vintage machinery at a lot of the shows. He bought it at a local auction several years ago and I stored it for him for a time. Yeah, The Hanson even still has all its glass which is amazing for such a machine. It is powered by a 366 Buda 6 cylinder gas engine. Maybe I should post a picture of my pole barn and what's in it. Any interest? Gary, are you having fun yet??? And I bet you thought you were nuts. Belive me, you don't have to be crazy to do this, but it sure does help. Dave!

[Dandy Dave]

Oh heck..... Here's one I built myself from the scrap pile in 2001 ....You know you have the disease bad when.......

I started with an undercarrige from what was left of a Vermer trencher from the 50's. I fabricated the deck and centerpin, boom and bucket. The swing gear and pinion is from a McCormick Deering corn binder. The hoist winch is an old builders winch. It is powered by a 12 HP Kohler from a Jacobson lawn mower. The crowd cluches are from a wayne road sweeper. It took about 3 years to gather enough junk and about 3 months to put it all together. All it did was eat, sleep, and work on the shovel. It is a 1 cubic foot bucket. Walks, works and digs like the big ones. I built it so I would have a shovel that was easy to move to the shows and it is a real crowd pleaser. Dave!

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

Holy cow!!! so this would be Dandy Daves L'il Digger I take it. Just curious, how many pulleys are on that thing.

Cool, thanks for sharing!!

[JohnD1956]

Hey Dave, careful you don't lean to the right for a beer when operating that digger. Otherwise you'll be looking to pick up a few doctors...

JD

[Gary_N]

Dave, yes you are crazy! And I thought I had BIG issues with fenders sitting around, while you need cranes to lift your parts. Gary

[Dandy Dave]

Mr. Earl. Yep, that's it. The one and only "Dandy Dave's Li'l Digger". I never had any idea how much attention it would get when I built it. It has been in the HCEA (Historic Construction Equipment Association) (Yeah Gary, there's a club for guys like me. ) Magazine, "Equipment Echoes", more than once and included in their show tapes. Also it has been in the "Construction Equipment Guide" more than once. It was in a local TV ad for the Dutchess County Fair several years ago. I have taken it there for about the last five or so years but had a disagreement this past year so I may not take it back there again.

JD, It has about 200 hours of operating time on it and so far I have evaded the Doctors and Nurses.

How many pulleys? Lets see now.... A four step on the motor, a two step on the Hydrolic pump. (It walks and swings Hydrolicly. One goes to the Hoist Clutch and there's an Idler pulley from a John Deere lawn mower for a tensioner. And then there's another one that goes to the crowd cluches, (The bucket has power in and out on a "shovel front" swing shovel.) though a set of reduction pulleys and then to the pulley that drives the clutches themselves which is also driven with a series of drive chains and sprockets...to the cable, more pulleys on the boom. Oh my, I just ran out of fingers and toes...... Someday I guess I will just have to count them while standing by the machine.

I built it with the same princpals that I do on every job. I started at the bottom, (The undercarrige) working with one problem or part at a time and completing that,... and then move on to the next challenge to conquer. Before you know it, with a little help, eveything will fall together. Dave!