Anybody Interested in trying to further decode a 65?

[Guest Gee_Rydes]

I just had a 1965 that had more options than most. I went onto the ROA site page that explains what some of the codes are and some that are still a mystery?

I was wondering if any of you 65 owners (or maybe it would be the same for all 63-65s) would see if we have the same codes and options in an attempt to further decipher the body tag.

Here is the link to decode options from ROA :

http://www.rivowners.org/features/colortrim/options.html

I have a rear window defroster, dual note horns, cruise control, and guide-matic that are not identified on the decode page. The defroster says it was dealer installed, but would the dealer really have installed that and cut through the package tray?

My accessory option code detail is EXNTS-2KR-3BT-4F-5KW

Only the 3BT part is not decodable according to the ROA site.

Do any of you that have any of those 4 options my car has, have 3BT in your code? Maybe we can figure out what the 3BT means??

It may be silly to think after all these years, I might be coming up with something new, but you never know if you don't ask.

[RivNut]

The codes you've refered to 2k - air conditioning, 2R - rear seat speaker, 4F - remote mirror, 5K - door guards, and 5W seat belts all required that Fisher Body make some modification to the Riviera body for those options to be installed. The other options that you specified like the guide-matic, four note horns, cruise control, and rear defroster didn't require any body modifications. That's also why they could be installed as a dealer option. Yes the dealer would have cut through the package tray to install the rear defroster jus like he would have drilled through the dash board to mount a guide-matic.

3B and 3T are mysteries; perhaps we'll all learn something here if someone else knows.

My 63 has all the options you mentioned except the rear defroster. The car was purchased in Tulsa, OK by a guy who worked for Phillips petroleum and spent most of his time in Texas - no need for a rear defroster in TX.

Here's how my window sticker reads:

BASE PRICE - 4,333.00

D4 - WONDERBAR RADIO W/ ELECTRIC ANTENNA

H1 - ELECTRO CRUISE

H2 - CORNER LIGHTS

I6 - TINTED GLASS

J2 - POWER SEAT

L1 - TILT WHEEL

M9 - SUPER DELUXE WHEEL COVERS - CAST ALUMINUM

N2 - AIR CONDITIONING

O7 - FOUR NOTE HORNS

S7 - REMORE CONTROL OUTSIDE MIRROR

T4 - OVERSIZE WHITE SIDEWALL TIRES (7.60 X 15 rather than 7.10 X 15)

U6 - POWER VENTS

U7 - POWER WINDOWS

X1 - GUIDE MATIC

X2 - TWILIGHT SENTINEL

Z4 - AUTO TRUNK RELEASE

STICKER PRICE - 5,895.03

The owner also had the dealer install a purse hook, a vanity mirror, floor mats and handy mats, air shocks, and door edge guards.

The Fisher Body is a tag that was used prior to Nov 1963 - the date for the tags used as decoded on the ROA website. Sorry, I can't help you there.

I took a picture of a 64 with a window sticker at the BCA nationals once. Here's how that car was equipped. Perhaps you'll find corresponding options on your car. Remeber, the Gran Sport option wasn't available in 1964, the first year for it was 1965. So this car was about as well equipped as you could get one at the time without the little things that were offered by the dealer.

BASE PRICE $4,385.00

B1 - SEAT BELTS

D2 - AM/FM WITH ELECTRIC ANTENNA

E4 - CARPET SAVERS AND HANDY MATS

E6 - REAR SEAT SPEAKER

H1 - ELECTRO CRUISE

H2 - CORNERING LIGHTS

I6 - TINTED GLASS

J2 - POWER SEAT

L1 - TILT WHEEL

L2 - REAR DEFROSTER

M9 - SUPER DELUXE WHEEL COVERS - CAST ALUMINUM

04 - DELUXE STEERING WHEEL (wood)

07 - FOUR NOTE HORN

S6 - PROTECTION GROUP (door guards)

S7 - REMOTE OUTSIDE MIRROR

T2 - 6.00x15 WHEELS WITH OVERSIZE WW TIRES

U8 - POWER VENTS AND POWER WINDOWS

W5 - HIGH PERFORMANCE 425 W/ DUAL FOUR BARRELS

X1 - GUIDE MATIC

Y6 - POSITRAC DIFFERENTIAL

Z4 - AUTO TRUNK RELEASE

*4 - CUSTOM TRIM - EXPANDED VINYL

DESTINATION CHARGE

THE STICKER PRICE FOR THAT CAR WAS $6,157.76

In my own mind, I don't know what body mods would be necessary for door guards (Fisher code 5K.) On a 65 if you have the ribbed rocker panels, that would require additional holes in the body to mount those and that would make more sense to me. But we'll have to live with what we have until someone else sets us straight.

[Guest Gee_Rydes]

Ed,

Does your cars have the 3B or 3T stamp on them?

I got the ribbed rockers and read somewhere that they installed these with the deluxe interior as a rule but could be purchased separately as well.

If I understand you correctly, the plate we are referring to is only for Fisher body mods? Maybe I misunderstood. I assumed it would be for any option that a dealer would not be able to install such as a deluxe interior or something whether it be Fisher or not. But I do not completely understand relationship between Fisher and I guess the factory?

I also assumed that cruise control, for example, would have been a factory option simply because of the few cars I had with cruise, the dash gauge housing with the hole for the cruise switch looked like it was actually made that way by the factory as opossed to a technician in the field creating that hole. I guess the tech could have switched out the gauge housing, but that would seem like a lot of work for that.

Maybe the mystery codes have something to do with a deluxe interior?

[RivNut]

I searched the Oldsmobile and the Pontiac sights and they give out the same information. The bodies were made and joined the frames on the line, engines, interiors, etc. were installed as the car moved down the line. If extra holes etc were needed to mount an option, it had to be done before the body was painted and mounted to the frame. Once it was moving down the line, then the assemblers could add what ever options were called for and they wouldn't have to make any mods to the body and screw with the paint seal. In my chassis manuals, there are instructions for adding some of these options at the dealership. The labor for installing them was probably quite expensive, but jus like you and I do when we find an option we want to add, we do what's necessary to add it. Like I said, my 63 doesn't have the kind of trim tag that your 65 does. My car was built in March of 63 and that tag didn't appear until November of 63, which was actually into the 64 production year. My 64 is a very basic car and doesn't have many options. Someone will determine what the B and T are in the #3 group, we'll just have to wait and see what they come up with.

The thing that would help you the most is to see if you can find the "build sheet" for your car. That would tell you all the options and perhaps you could figure it out for yourself. Do you have the window sticker for this car? If so, a process of elimination could determine what 3B and 3T are.

I've been working on Rivs since the mid 70's. I have the 2nd and 11th ones I've owned right now. I still learn something new almost everyday. The one thing I have learned and it keep repeating itself is that "we'll never know all we want to know."

[Guest Gee_Rydes]

Thanks for the knowledge of how the build works. I did not know that stuff. I just watched one of my 65's get hauled away and on its way to Georgia. I did not have much build or sales information on it. I have a baser model 65 in the paint shop now and am always on the lookout for other candidates.

It appears as thought the codes on the window sticker are sales codes and not applicable to the numbers on the body plate?

[Jim Cannon]

Read Darwin Falk's article in the July/August 2007 Riview for a discussion of option codes. He is starting out with '63 but alludes to some things you need to know about '64 and later. He says he will continue the series with '64 and '65, so stay tuned...

[1965rivgs]

Hi Guys,

The codes which appear on the Fisher Body tags for the `63 models are the same as the sales codes which the dealer`s salesperson used to originaly order the car. Therefore, the codes on the window sticker for each option will coincide with the codes which appear on the Fisher Body plate. This changed for the `64 and `65 models.

In `64 and `65 Fisher assigned arbitrary codes to each of the options whose installation required their intervention. Not all options required attention by Fisher Body so not all options available on the vehicle would be represented on the body plate.

The rear window defroster option would indeed be Fisher`s responsibility as most everything from the firewall back, body wise, belonged to them.

The code 3B represents rear defogger and 3T represents rear seat armrest.

The cruise and Guidematic options, which require a specific under dash wiring harness, are not represented on the Fisher Body plate because the harness and most everything else in the dash area, like the wood grain wheel, were installed at the Flint factory during final car assembly. The rocker panel moldings are an excellent example of such an optional item.

Hope this helps,

Tom Mooney ROA #56

[Guest Gee_Rydes]

That is some fabulous information, Tom.

Thanks for the info.

Somebody should send that to the ROA site webmaster so it can be updated

[1965rivgs]

Great suggestion Gee....I didn`t realize the website info was incomplete. The Fisher Body plate codes were researched by members of the old Riviera club which Evans Claggett started and published in their newsletter. A complete listing of the Fisher Body codes for the `64 models are contained in a `64 Buick Service Bulletin. Wish I could obtain such a list for each individual year for all the Buick assembly plants! Then I could decode the `66 Wildcat plates. Very bizarre, but not all the Fisher locations used the same coding system. We are fortunate the Rivieras were only built at one location for the first generation, Flint. Specific Fisher information is very hard to obtain.

For a complete discussion of the relationship between Fisher Body and its corresponding GM assembly plants go to www.camaros.org Click on the CRG Reports tab and scroll down to the first generation assembly process. The assembly process described is for a sub frame and not a full framed automobile, so there are deviations from how our Rivieras were assembled, but the documentary is fascinating for those interested in such things.

Talk back at `ya in a week or so after you have digested all the information!

Tom Mooney ROA #56

[RivNut]

Tom,

As I told someone the other day, I'm a charter member of the ROA (which means that you and I and a bunch of others have been around this hobby for over 22 years now) and as long as I keep reading these forums sponsored by the AACA, BCA, and ROA, there's probably not a week goes by that I don't learn something new. Lots of times it comes from someone clarifying a response that I have made having a good idea about the whole, but not every little part. The fact about the rear of the car being the responsibility of Fisher Body is a good example of something being clarified for me. I couldn't grasp why the rear seat speaker would have needed Fisher's input but your explanation makes it clear. Great job of explaining how everything comes together.

I don't know if you saw Chris Knowles announcement which was posted on his Tech Discussion line today, but he says that it's running smoothly and there's no need for him to shut it down as was previoulsy announced.

Kudos to everyone who keeps contributing and to those who keep asking questions so the answers can be posted.

Tom, to you as a board member: Do you know if anyone is assigned the responsibility of monitoring the threads on the various tech lines and keeping track of the items, such as 3B and 3T, and updating the website as needed? I'm still working on trying to get Kansas (sic: KANSIS CITY) spelled correctly on my Regional News quick link.