vintageride

JV, Regarding your comment on the document. It is important to remember, the primary documents that Roadster provided above were not available to Darrin then, or to many of those since that have evaluated the vehicle. I prefer to believe, that Darrin was excited to see a vehicle from his past and was prepared to assist the owner and restorer any way he could. Vintageride

Thanks for posting. I could see re-body being easier to update and refresh a vehicle. It is also tough or impossible to cover a finish that keeps failing. I presume, the re-body could come through many channels too. Buick, Reo, and Olds were the first group of photos I went through. Within each make is many different Models. I have found it easy to find a good match, but not a perfect match. Style lines, mongram panels, and sill lines. I will take a look at more Model R Reo photos. Vintageride

Thank you for noticing that. I didn't. I also see one of the cans (presumably paint) in one photo says "Flint". Brooks or Brook is very curious. It could mean anything. I have looked around a bit to see if I could find a connection. Nothing seemed to fit. Brook(s) could be allot of things, a line supervisor, body cart supplier, or end user of the body. Perhaps subcontract work to save on transportation. The only body builders named Brooks seems to be Brooks-Ostruk and the associated companies. Autombiles named Brooks are not contemporary or local. Vintageride

Mr. Layden B, thank you for the input. You insight is appreciated. Does anyone happen to know the body builder of the 1911 Cadillac Touring? Vintageride

Here are three photos of automobile bodys and craftsmen. The photos appear to be part of a series showing a group photo and then some individual shots of the painters. The photos provide a good view of the rear and right side of the bodies as well as the plant floor. There are a few cars from the period that appear to be alike, although none seemed to match these bodies perfectly. In your comparison, look closely at the sill line, the style details at the rear of the front seat, and other style details aft of the rear doors. The group shot does show the rear of a body to the right that may or may not be of the same type. The photos are believed to be associated with one of the body manufacturers in Flint, Michigan. The photos were bought from a vendor that purchased them in an estate sale in the same city. No name was given of the estate sale. What car do these bodies fit? Vintageride

The Bragg Kliesrath brake booster idea from the Packard may be a very viable option. The parts and rebuilding services are available too. I was surprised to see an earlier brake vacuum booster in my Vol. II, Automobile Engineering Automobile Techincal Society, 1919. The Prest-O-Lite unit is shown on the attached diagrams. One diagram even appears to be of a similar vintage as your car. These diagrams should provide some insight on possible packaging options. Incidently an electric brake by the Hartford Electric Brake Company is also shown. It appears to utilize a worm gear and cable pull. It is operated by a hand lever on the steering column. I would venture a guess that few if any of these units survive. Not a very practical period looking retrofit in your case. Vintageride

Is it a coupe with opera seats? Does it have the commercial sidemount cover? Look for hinge and latch. If so, do the doors interfere with the sidemounts? Verify that the running boards are consistent with a 120 or are they reproduction running boards. Vintageride

Thoughts on possible Gus Schumacher #9 power plant. After looking at many pre-1928 V8 engines, I have come up with two early v8s with the exhaust port configuration found on the #9 special. My hunch is that the engine does not necessarily match the chassis. So I have focused on the engine. I have also assumed that Gus built straight exhaust zoomies exiting the hood and that the engine was built stateside for automotive applications. So take all of this with a grain of salt. The field is small for pre-1928 v8s with that exhaust port configuration after looking at many v8s from the period. Many were excluded by the mere fact of exhaust ports located inboard of the cylinder banks (i.e. Cole, Cadillac, Daniels etc.). Several pre-1928 v8s did have the exhaust ports located outboard (i.e. Chevrolet, Wills-Saint Clair, Willys-Knight, and Stearns-Knight). From that list two-remain that match the #9 special’s exhaust port configuration: Chevrolet and Stearns-Knight. The Stearns-Knight design seems development wise head and shoulders above the 1st Generation Chevrolet v8. These to me were surprising conclusion to the analysis. Was the Schumacher car powered with a Sleeve-valve v8? Chevrolet? Something else. My hope is that someone can take this working theory and refute or develop the debate. See attached Stearns-Knight photo from "Automobile Engineering" 1919, page 365. Discussion about the Chevrolet including a nice photo here: OT--- First Chevrolet V8 Vintageride

Great lead. Many thanks Commodore. An excellent website with tremendous information. We are hoping to find more detailed information than is available on these engines on the web. The WOKR website is excellelent and indicates that the V8 model number is SK-8, model years available, and the configuration is V8 using sleeve valves. There is also information there about the cars but not much up close and personal details about the engine. I have zoomed in on one of the engines in the dyno photo since the original one I provided is limited. Hopefully at least one of these has survived and perhaps even some technical documents. Vintageride

Folks, See attached scan of seventeen V8 engines on dynos at "F. B. Stearns". These engines were pictured on page 365 of Volume II of the 1919 printing of "Automobile Engineering".<O:p <O:p Does anyone have more photos and technical details of these engines? <O:p Vintageride<O:p

I am happy to report that I did manage to identify the previous owner of both the Isotta-Fraschini and the 1927 Packard eight runabout. The knowledge of prior ownership of these vehicles is indeed priceless. Many thanks to everyone that have helped. In the process, I gathered information about the Isotta-Fraschini that the present owner could use to flesh in their vehicles history. I was only able to verify the previous owner. Not subsequent owners. See photo taken of the Isotta-Fraschini at the time of visit. This would have been when the 1927 Packard eight runabout was purchased. The photo is grainy, but does include some detail. If you look hard and zoom in a Le Nivex fuel gauge and a Jaeger speedometer can be seen. The metal garnish strip is woodgrained. This was the only photo taken of the Isotta-Fraschini. PM me directly if you believe this is your vehicle. Vintageride

I tried an old thread for Isotta Fraschini with no PMs. So here is a new dedicated thread. I am looking for a historical seller information in order to fill in the pre-1957 history of a 1927 Packard eight runabout sold alongside an Isotta Fraschini. The Isotta Fraschini would have been for sale in 1957 in Kingston, New York. The Isotta Fraschini was from the late twenties or 1930 believed to be an open car, with split windshield, custom body, likely but not necessarily a convertible sedan. The Isotta Fraschini sellers name was Eugene (sp?). I am not sure what his last name was. Eugene was also selling the 1920s Packard 8 Runabout. At the time the Packard was painted entirely in battleship gray. Eugene was a diver that worked in Brooklyn and lived in Kingston. Likely salvage and repair. Eugene utilized the Isotta Fraschini and the Packard to commute to and from work. Please PM me directly if you have any more information about the seller. Any leads are appreciated. Vintageride

Hopefully it is OK to reopen an old thread since there is not a devoted thread for Isotta Fraschini. I am looking for historical seller information. The Isotta Fraschini would have been sold in 1957 Kingston, New York. The Isotta Fraschini was from the late twenties or 1930 believed to be an open car, with split windshield, custom body, likely a convertible sedan. The Isotta Fraschini sellers name was Eugene (sp?). I am not sure what his last name was. Eugene was also selling a 1920s Packard 8 Runabout that was painted entirely in battleship gray. He was a diver that worked in Brooklyn and lived in Kingston. Likely salvage and repair. Eugene utilized the Isotta Fraschini and the Packard to commute to and from work. Please PM me directly if you have any more information about the seller. Any leads are appreciated.

Wow. That must be Jethro and Grumman. Stunning.

Hello folks, I have been gone the past few days. It looks like the thread has been pretty busy. I knew the 1936 Packard Speedster many years ago when I lived back east. Here is one of the views I have of the body being placed on the Packard chassis. Some of you have asked; the body was steel (1929 Auburn model 8-120). Based on the other photo, the firewall of the body was removed. AJ is correct, the car was powered by a bored out twelve with twin superchargers. 904080 Dick Saunders owned the car, until his death in 1976. I have compiled loads of documents about this car from creation to it's evolution through the years. This began when I saw the car in late August 2007 just by chance, only a few weeks after the Christie's auction. Few would have recognized it. Many of the documents have been graciously provided by friends. This is a partial list of references for your research for Mr. Saunders and the car: Blend, Edward J., 1988. Antique Automobile, "The Packard Gentlemen’s Tailback Speedster by Fernandez and Darrin", July-August 1988. Buckler, 1967. Bennington Banner, Photo, Page 1, September 18, 1967. Christie’s, 2007. Lot description as posted on Christie's - Fine Art Auctions | Contemporary Modern Paintings | Jewelry Auction House | Antique Furniture. Lot number 0050, Sale number 1864. Collectible Automobile, Speedster, September 1989 Fesler, Otis. Automobilists of the Upper Hudson Valley Magazine, "Ask The Man Who’s Owned Some". Date Needed Hamilton Woolen Mill, 1922. "The Hamiltonian" Newsletter Vol. 111, No. 8, August 1922. Jaderquist, J. A., 1951. Motor Trend, "Classic Comments", July 1951. Saunders, Richard E., 1975. Classic Car Club of America, The Classic Car Magazine, "Letter to the Editor", March 1975. The Fesler article is great. Just a few typos though, spelling (Proux) and one of the years listed (1930 vs 1929). The Fesler article was from the sixties or seventies. Please let me know the date of the Fesler article from the AUHV. Feel free to contact me with any questions. I would be interested in any letters, photos, insight you may have about Mr. Saunders or the 1936 Packard Speedster. Vintageride

I realized that no one can really read the article due to it's rather ratty condition. I assume this was done when insert bearing were introduced. I would love to hear any additional input or background to these publicized tests. I typed the text to help the reader. It also helps to click on the image again to increase it's size on your screen. "25,000 Miles with throttle wide open Running day and night on the two and one half mile concrete superspeedway at the Packard Proving Ground, this standard Packard car has traveled 25,000 miles at wide open throttle. Accurately tuned, the car averaged 90 miles per hour for the entire distance. ?nd the engine operated at an average of 4,000 revolutions per minute. This is said by the Packard engineers to have been one of the most severe tests ever attempted with a motor car. High speed runs for long distances have been made before but, it is pointed out by Packard engineers, that they were accomplished with cars the gear ratios of which had been changed to slow the engines down to around 3,000 or even less. It is the engine speeds, such as those at which standard cars in the hands of the public would operate at wide open throttle that test the stamina of a car’s power plant to the utmost." Hope this helps. Vintageride

This is a great thread. We all are learning a great deal from the discussion. I am also very interested in the factory built Town Cars. I am focused on the 12th Series cars though. Looking for description of survivors or remnants. Any leads would be appreciated, even period photos or reference to these automobiles would be appreciated. I am aware of the '35 12 Variety Magazine car that survives as well as the digitized Packard Motor Company photos. Vintageride

This is an interesting newspaper clipping about testing at the Packard Proving Grounds. Folks may be able to add more detail. Vintageride

According to Floyd Clymer's (1954) "Cars of the Stars", Madge Evans (1930s MGM Actress) owned a Packard matching JD's movie still from Upper World (1934 Warner Brothers film). I wonder if either car still exists. They look like 1932 Twin Six Town Cars to me. Vintageride

It is great to see a thread like this. I would like to hear more about Maurice Proux. Simple and elegant upright style. Mr. Proux had his own carroserrie in Paris and participated in concours there from 1928 through 1933. Proux was mentioned in "Packard the Pride" by JM Fenster and in the Dennis Adler book about Packard. The Proux featured in both books was a 1930 745 Victoria featuring double rear spares. Hopefully someone has a photo, some background information, or other references to share regarding Maurice Proux coachbuilt Packards. Vintageride

I couldn't make the trip this past weekend. I heard that there were some really great cars there. Did anyone get any good pictures of the Packards? Vintageride

My guess is that ECM is the photographer. I talked to my dad about the photo. Dad was in Burlington from the mid to late fifties and remembers the car and the owner. He does not remember his name. The owners business was instruments and may have been from the northeast kingdom. You may want to check with members of the Vermont Auto Enthusiasts. Someone in the club certainly knows. Vintageride

He does have a sharp eye. Good call. Did Mr. Roxas provide more information? Is there an article or photo feature available for the car? I would like to hear more about the car. What was his inspiration? How did it come together? ...and so on. Vintageride

The Roxas car appeared to have a modified version of these cylinder heads. They are pricey, but you can spend allot of time and money working with heads that are "nearly perfect". Automobile Castings They are offering other heads for Packard and other makes of cars. I wonder in they plan on making the 359 head for the '54 Packard. It seems like the insert bearings offered on the 1935 and up would be better to work with as well. Vintageride

I regret that i did not take more photos during the event. I was just not expecting to see the Packards. The bronze car is the Roxas car and the convertible is the car from Ohio. Here are a few more photos, including closeup shots of the Packard engine in the Roxas car. Reportedly, the Roxas car was bored to about 500 cubic inches. I do know of someone that bored his Packard twelve out to approximately that size back in the '50s. Many of my photos are out of focus, as is the photo shown below of the front of the convertible. Perhaps someone knows who built the convertible and if are there plans to power it with a Packard engine. Vintageride