NTX5467

Something else to consider is if the valve clearances are spec'd at "cold" or "hot" engine temps. "Cold" is usually what the spec is for whereas "hot" would be at operating temperature (after running for about 15 minutes after the thermostat opened up). Just some thoughts, NTX5467

Don't forget about the Buick engines (straight 6s, 8s and "bent" 8) that were used in GMC light and heavy duty trucks prior to about 1962. I ran across a GMC Truck book the other night and it had a picture of the GMC that Cannonball Baker used to set a "Sea to Shining Sea" speed record with (carrying a tank load of Atlantic Ocean sea water to dump into the Pacific Ocean AND "full rated load" for the truck) had "Powered by Buick" or similar on the side of the tank. From what I suspect, the original GMC 6 cylinder might be pretty similar in many respects to the old Buick inline 6s of back then as it noted that they had to build their own 6 cylinder motors when Buick stopped building inline 6s back then, going exclusively to straight 8s. So, stationary applications weren't the only places Buick engines were used other than in cars. Enjoy! NTX5467

Not sure about the clearance specs, but what you quoted sounds a little "tight" to me, considering what solid lifter valve clearance usually is. Even if they were adjusted too tight, it would not cause them to bend anyway, just a loss of power (remember the wheezing VWs? that's what happens when you don't run the valves regularly on them). Backfires usually don't bend pushrods either. Stems seizing in the guides? Seems kind of remote considering modern oils, but if enough oil is not getting down the guides, it'll be easy to tell due to score marks on the stems from metal transfer. In some cases, engine mechanics might try to compensate for oil consumption via the valve guides by putting scraper seals in that keep the guide/stems too "dry", thereby causing more wear to happen sooner, instead of really fixing the problem of stem to guide clearance with new or reconditioned guides plus new valves. When you do get it apart, please let us know what you found. Just some thoughts, NTX5467

Don't know if there was a particular engine tied to the "S-Type" package, but it might have included bucket seats and console, a gage package (with a tachometer), an F-41 style suspension, alloy wheels, and probably some Goodyear Eagle GT tires (the performance tire of that time that most OEMs used). Might have also been "vinyl roof delete" too. Just my gut suspicion, without having a sales brochure in front of me or The Standard Catalog of Buick (which usually details these things). I suspect that at that time frame, the 3.8L Turbo and the 307 Olds V-8 probably had about the same power, just that some people were still gunshy of turbos after the early days and still wanted a V-8 (even if it was "stangled"). Just some thoughts, NTX5467

As a general rule, you might consider using the platform design breaks to determine the classes instead of arbitrary year model breaks per se (i.e., 1940s, 1950s, 1930s). From there, depending on what shows up, you might also need to make smaller classes for specific year model ranges (i.e., 1955-1958 or similar) or "open" or "closed" car if one class range has many covertibles (open) in addition to sedans/coupes (closed). You might also see what the other major concours events have done in their class breakdowns too. In general, possibly "Brass Era", "Pre-WWII", "Post-WWII", "Roaring '50s", "Modern" (as the default class for 1960s and newer; Maybe "Space Age" for the 1960s?). Enjoy! NTX5467

Might the better question be "Has Buick ever had any bad engine designs that got into production?" Only significant mechanical difference in the old even or odd-fire 3.8L V-6 is the addition of the balance shaft mechanism that resulted in the 3800. Even fire 3.8s were already fully electronically controlled with the introduction of the new front wheel drive C/H cars in the middle 1980s (quite "high end" for that period of time!) Not to mention the power from the smaller 3.0L and 3.3L V-6s of that time too (check the power/torque specs and you'll see they were really quite "high output" for their cubic inch displacement). Everyone has their own favorite engine sizes that came in their favorite cars--that's a given, which might explain why some favor the larger 455 over the 430 or a 401 over a 425. As mentioned, sometimes when a "sweet spot" combination in one engine size is put on a larger engine, the "sweet spot" situation might be diminished for some reason or another. In the case of the 455 vs. the 430, the added displacement was to make up for the loss of compression ratio and addition of tighter emission controls. It might be interesting to see if anyone's made a high compression version of their 455 with the same cam and other specs as the previous 430 had and what their results were. Buick did sell the 215 V-8 stuff to Rover in the early 1970s. It's still being used today, or was up until the last time I looked, and would have to be fully emissions compliant in all respects. Quite a tribute to a little engine that probably didn't get as much "prime time" as it might have been entitled to when it was in production in the 1960s. Just some thoughts, NTX5467

At the production level, that change would require a new differential case (what the ring gear bolts to) as the flange thickness is specific to a particular range of gear ratios. In the aftermarket, they use a spacer that goes behind the ring gear before you bolt it up to do the same thing, but only if you use the aftermarket gear set (which is usually in the 3.91 or 4.10+ range). Unless you find a stock replacement aftermarket set to do what you want, most of the aftermarket sets might be "deeper" than 3.91 instead of 3.42. If you don't already have a limited slip rear axle, this might be an opportune time to make that upgrade too. If you get an OEM replacement gear set, 3.08 might be a deep as you can go and not change the differential case, but we'd need to look in the parts book to verify that. There are several full line rear axle parts vendors that advertise in the enthusiast magazines. Buying a new limited slip unit for the 3.42 ratio you desire and then a OEM style 3.42 gear set might be the best way out. Have you also got someone that is proficient in setting up rear axles lined up to do the changeover? Getting the right pattern on the gear set is a key thing that can sometimes test an installer's patience to make sure it's right where it needs to be. The other side of the deal might be to find someone with a GS that's going to put some deeper gears in the back and is selling their used gear set and diffential case (as a matched set) that is a 3.42. Provided everything's in good condition, that might be the least expensive way out, but it depends on what you can find too. Of course, salvage yard shopping might be an option too. All things considered, it might be better to chase a 3.08 instead of a 3.42. Might not be that much difference in race ETS but also give you more throttle response without hurting the fuel economy too much at cruise. A little bit looser torque converter with a 3.08 might give similar results as just putting the 3.42 in there, performance wise, without the extra cruise rpms--or even retrofitting a switch pitch converter setup into the vehicle too (presuming you have a THM 400). Of course, it's your car and you know what your expectations are too . . . Just some thoughts, NTX5467

Centurion is highly correct regarding the prevalence of American vehciles in European countries. There are more there than many suspect, from what I've seen. Some were assembled over there too, either in plants or from "knock down chassis" kits. GM had some kind of assembly plant in Belgium in the 1960s too. In the later 1980s, the Mopar club I'm involved with was having their annual car show event. One of our officers got a call from a gentleman from Sweden that was in the area, wanting to know about the show and where and when it was. He did come to the show with several of his friends from Sweden. What they did was buy American cars, import them to Sweden, do a full restoration AND convert them to right hand drive. When done, they are probably better than when they were new and still left hand drive. He had pictures of the converted instrument panel and it was flawless in detail and finish. They were proficient with metal work so they could make "mirror images" of sorts for the metal stampings of the instrument panel. The later model plastic instrument panels were easier to do, they said. Still, quite a bit of work and obviously the resale price of the restored "Euro" model made it financially worthwhile. They were also buying some Dodge pickups to take over there too. I'm not sure if most of the Buicks over there are left hand drive or not, but this particular group of Swedes changed everything over in their restoration process. I also recall several articles in "The Bugle", over the years, on European Buicks and also British Buicks. From my casual observation, other than Chevrolet, Buick seemed to be the "export" division of General Motors. In one of Pat Brooks' recent articles on his "trail" experiences, he even found a pretty nice Buick in a place you would not have ever expected to find a Buick. Considering the added duty taxes for a European citizen to purchase a new American made vehicle, plus other costs of getting it there, the basic stateside cost of the vehicle would be doubled (or more!). I recall an article in a "1963 Ford Buyer's Guide" on how exclusive it was to own a new 1963 Thunderbird in Switzerland (the country used in the particular article) and how well the heater worked in the cold winter compared to other European vehicles of the time. Back then, not that many European cars were quite as comfort oriented as USA products were or performed quite as well as a larger American V-8 did. Just some thoughts, NTX5467

Microfiche might have been available, but I don't recall very many -- if any -- GM dealers that bought it, opting for the paper books instead. Ford, on the other hand, had everything on microfiche and AMC had microfiche when it was really AMC (i.e., pre-Chrysler purchase). The problem with microfiche is that it can get brittle with age and can be scratched pretty easily. In theory, I suspect that a public library microfiche reader might work to read it with, but how many of those are still around? Not to mention the extreme bulkiness of them. There were typically four revisions of the parts book publications per year, especially for the newer and then, more current models. As time went on, some of the earlier part numbers were dropped out of the books too, but still might have been available until existing stock was depleted. Therefore, if you wanted a good reference book for, say a 1970 Buick, you'd need a 1970 printing parts book instead of the "pre-1975" compilation, which came later. Generally, you'll need to look for a parts book that is not more than about three years newer (printing/revision date) than the vehicle you have (just from my experience). This ensures that the vehicle in question was still new enough at that time to have a full parts listing in it. But if you buy one of the CD products, I suspect it will be using that particular year's applicable parts book instead of one of the later versions, but I have no knowledge if that's the case or not. Currently, the best option would be to purchase one of the "parts books on CD" products from a reputable vendor. Some have just the parts book, others also include the service manual and some sales literature too, so shopping around can be valuable for content PLUS price. Perhaps some of the other participants have some experience with these vendors? Just some thoughts, NTX5467

Sorry for the later response . . . The engine color you need for the GM Corporate Blue will only be accurate if you get it from a GM dealer--period. Back when that "situation" came out, the Krylon and other colors with that nomenclature were either closer to Ford Blue or Chrysler Blue and NOT the GM color. Only place to get the correct color is from GM dealers in a GM Goodwrench can. Have the GM parts person get into their Standard Parts Catalog in their parts database and then look for engine paint listings--it's in there. You might have to buy 6 cans minimum, but then you'll have it. Also, the current GM Glossy Black engine paint is not "glossy" as the name might indicate, but more satiny in sheen. It is an exact match for the black paint on the engine brackets and air cleaner. The "black" that goes on the body panels can be had in GM Reconditioning Black, but some don't like it and choose to use other paints for those items. The situation in later years might have changed with the proliferation of restoration paints, but that's the way the "Corporate Blue" situation was back then. As mentioned, there can be subtle changes in engine color over the years, so attention to those items can be necessary. Hope this helps, NTX5467

One of the Northstar "street rod" supply companies is Cadillad Hot Rod Fabricators. According to an article in the Hemmings magazine, they use a THM700 from an S-10 2.8L V-6 application (with much internal beefing of clutch packs and such) for the correct bolt pattern on the bellhousing and then also make a water pump relocation kit for the non-sideways installation (now that the XLR uses a similar mounting setup, it might simplify things in the future after some of those engines get out on the streets). They have a website too. In the magazine article, it was noted that in their street rod applications with a 600cfm carb and an intake manifold they supply, the stock engine suddenly makes another 100 horsepower with no other modifications. Seems the low hood line configuration adversely affects the output potential of the engine due to intake manifold considerations, so they said. From looking at the cylinder heads on that engine, it does not surprise me. Not sure about conversion to rear wheel drive, though, I don't think there's enough floor pan room to make it happen, but stranger things have been known to happen. The Chrysler LH platform was originally designed with AWD in consideration, though, and I recall seeing one retired-age gentleman at Mopar Nationals that had an LHS with two powertrain modules--one front as normal and one in the rear, with the ECMs ganged together. The windows were tinted darkly, but the rear seat got to be one small jump seat on each side. Quite impressive, but probably impressively expensive to make happen too. Enjoy! NTX5467

The "Alternator" gauge is reading amps instead of volts. GM started the whole thing with the "Volts" instead of "Amps" to indicate charging system status in the early 1970s. There are reasons for both approaches. The alternator you installed has no significant extra output, even though it has an extra output terminal. In using that alternator on an older vehicle, there should have been some instructions on tying the two output terminals together with a piece of wire. The basic reason for that extra output was to drive the electric assist chokes that were used beginning in the early 1970s, thereby making it easier to adapt the wiring harnesses than to design complete new ones. The later 1970s alternators had better cooling (the ones with the waffle shaped grid on the back of the alternator) but no real significant increase in alternator output. The 100amp models that were used on the middle 1970s cars with electric back window defroster were much bigger in case size and took different mounting brackts, similar to the police car equipment Motorola alternators. Of course, as mentioned checking all of the alterator connections to make sure they are good is very important for max alternator output. So is having clean and solid battery cable connections too--even if they look acceptable, there can be some gunk that can be hidden between the cable end and the battery post (which can still show normal voltage but will not let enough amps through for things to work right). While you're checking voltages, make sure the battery cables are not "eating" any voltage too. Seeing the lights dim at idle on a Chrysler product of that vintage is somewhat normal, but still disconcerting when it happens. I have even noticed similar things on my '77 Camaro, though, but it was minimized when I went to a larger capacity battery on the Camaro. The "normal" replacement battery (using CCA as a guide) would be a 75-5YR battery. When I went to the higher CCA 75-6YR battery, the problem diminished some and is not nearly so noticeable (usually when the vehicle is first started and backing out of the driveway). The electronic voltage regulator is not a sure fix for the problem either. It's main function was increased durability and reliability. I certainly hope you used an OEM replacement and NOT the one that Mopar Performance sells for the earlier systems as there are critical differences in the voltage levels that can cause other problems (which I found out about when I used one, and later read about "why" it happened in the Direct Connection Engine Manual). When the older points-type regulators are working correctly, they worked just fine and well enough to support the Mopar Performance electronic ignition conversions. The older regulators can also be adjusted too, if you follow the instructions in the Chrysler service manual. The reason for the Mopar Performance/Direct Connection specific voltage regulators having their higher basic voltage range is to support the "Orange Box" electronic ignition control module's need for higher than normal voltage to even fire the plugs. I've seen some cars with that control box that would spin over just fine, but not fire the plugs until a jump was received from another vehicle. The stock control box does not have quite so high a minimum voltage threshold to fire the plugs, but is still more than it would be for a points ignition system. As the race manual noted, using that higher voltage electronic regulator CAN affect the life span of ALL electrical parts on the vehicle. In my case on a '67 Newport, I found all sorts of flaky wiring connections that a previous owner had installed--resulting in sudden engine stoppages or no starts after it had been running, not fun. In some respects, you are seeing a somewhat normal condition on earlier Chrysler products, but you can possibly minimize what's happening by checking the things that have been mentioned. Problem is that once you notice it, you tend to key on it and think it's a malfunction getting ready to happen, which might not be the case. Be sure to check the firewall bulkhead connection block for poor connections as that's part of the charging system circuit too. The voltage spike you mentioned could usually only be from a shorted wire or similar that would suddenly cause a need for higher amperage output from the alternator. Hope this helps, NTX5467

I concur that it does sound like a cable issue. Replacing the cable/housing assembly might be the best long term fix. It might also be that the plastic bushing in the back of the speedometer head is having some wear issues too. In that case, the speedometer head will have to be repaired to fix the problem, but you might hear a bell-type scraping noise when one part of the "speed cup" touches the other part of the speed cup on each revolution. Might be a combination of both things too. ACDelco has a special speedometer lube. It's pretty jelly-like and probably lighter weight than the white lithium lube mentioned, but at this stage of the game, anything's better than nothing, I suspect, and might help isolate the problem area in the process. Just some thoughts, NTX5467

Maybe I'm incorrrect, but I suspect the "no stop" condition might have been more related to brake lining material/lining size issues that just the power brakes themselves. Basic braking performance is more related to the interaction of the brake lining with the brake drum than whether or not it has power brakes--unless the lining is so hard or has too much metallic content to work well when "cold". Maybe a brake remanufacturer could be of help in getting some different linings on the car that might work better? Moroso makes an auxilary vacuum reservoir for applications where there is low manifold vacuum at idle. It's more for later model cars that someone has put a much bigger cam in the motor in and they still want to have operable power brakes. I'm not sure if that's what you already have or not. On middle 1980s Oldsmobile 307s, they had a belt driven vacuum pump as those motors apparently ran such low manifold vacuum that they needed extra vacuum just to operate the a/c vents and such. Not sure if it could be adapted to a Buick V-8 application, though, without some major modifications. I know there are electric-driven air pumps for the emissions systems on late model Camaros and Olds Intrigues, but I don't know (or have looked about) similar electric-driven vacuum pumps. Got to be something as 4 cylinder motors used to not have very much manifold vacuum at all. Back then, Power Brakes were more of an "effort reducer" than a performance enhancer. True, they might react quicker than manual brakes, but I doubt they would make great differences in stopping distances or capabilities per se. Also, the internal components in the booster might need some upgrading (reaction valving and such?) for potentially better performance (i.e., boost levels per inch of manifold vacuum). There are several remanufacturers of power brake boosters, but they usually come with a master cylinder attached for warranty purposes. I suspect the suggestion of 18" of vacuum at idle to run the power brakes on that car was more of a guideline than anything else. Remember, too, that when you put the car in gear (if it's an automatic), then the vacuum will drop to about 15" or less, but when running down the road it should be back to the 18" region, which is where the reservoirs come into play. Might need to check the check valves in the vacuum hose connections too. Which brings up another issue--hydraulic pressure multiplication. If there's a similar application with a larger master cylinder piston bore size than what you currently have, that might be an option too. There is a particular relationship between the master cylinder bore size and that of the wheel cylinders. Don't forget that some of the earlier cars also had two pivot points for the master cylinder push rod on the brake pedal. Not sure if these issues might apply to your vehicle, but they might be things to think about and then let others know what your findings were. As for the vacuum issues, you might try advancing the basic timing to see if that might increase it some, but still keep the same idle rpm level. On some motors, just a few extra degrees will make a difference. I really suspect that if you address the brake lining issue and the possibility of maybe using larger brakes (with wider brake shoes) from a later model to increase the basic stopping capability of the vehicle, that might yield better results as that's where the "action" takes place more than on the pressure side of things. Then maybe the master cylinder bore size issue next. Of course, maximizing the manifold vacuum would be a helpful side issue. As a word of caution, whenever you start changing brake system components to something other than the factory production items, you do so at your own risk. Although the intent is to make it better, it might take some trial and error before that happens. Always use OEM approved service procedures too. Just some thoughts . . . NTX5467

I'll agree with Bob and Roberta, there are some car events that are much more enjoyable to watch than participate in. Participation can be fun in many of them, depending upon your tolerance level (and that of your vehicle too!) for participating in these events. What might be an option, if it could be orchestrated in consideration of the high profile nature of the event, would be for the Buick groups to get together and get a parking space designated for them at some strategic location along the cruise route, similar to what some of the car companies or major vendors might do. Maybe even a Buick dealer along the route could clear their lot(s) for a Buick car display? Basically, a "safe" place to park your Buick and then walk the route to take in the sights and sounds and atmosphere of the premier car event. Sure, you'd be there for the duration (due to traffic considerations), but you could plan for that and maybe make it something of a tailgate party. During the former Waco MiniNats car show weekend in Waco, TX, the Dodge dealer would clear his front lot for event participants (of the Mopar persuasion) to park and watch the Saturday night cruise action on Valley Mills Drive (the main drag in Waco). It was much more fun to watch the cruise than to be in the middle of things out on the street. A nice place to look at other Mopars, visit, and watch things happen. As I mentioned, maybe there's a Buick dealer somewhere on the route that might do similar things (or sponsor a parking lot situation along the route for "Buicks ONLY Parking")? Just some thoughts to consider and maybe plan for in the future . . . NTX5467

Thanks for the update. It might be a little extreme, but did they also adjust the tire pressure in the front tires when they had it in the repair shop? Maybe too much air or something? Is the rear also sitting lower too? I can't think of anything that would, in the course of that repair, alter the springs or anything to do with the front struts to increase the ride height of the front of the car (in concurrance to what was mentioned). I would be more concerned with that than the tire situation (which should be easily fixed or attended to). NTX5467

There are some engines which, by design and related issues, might not achieve the "ideal" 18" of vacuum at idle. Usually, if you can get it to a "maximum" value for your engine, that's all it will do (at idle). That value can vary due to several outside influences too, like altitude. Certain levels might be related to particular engine families too. If you find some of the Motor Repair Manuals (or similar) from the 1950s or 1960s, it'll probably have a section on using a vacuum gauge for diagnostics and also give you a range of values for particular operational situations. In reality, a vacuum gauge is more of a diagnostic tool than a generator of specific or absolute values (as a timing light or tachometer would be). Usually, if you aim for the maximum idle vaccum level for your engine, it should be at or slightly below 18" of Mercury. If you then move the throttle to obtain a higher rpm, say about 2000 rpm or so, and then snap the throttle closed, that's when you'll see the 21" of Mercury reading on the gauge or during periods of closed throttle coast down. As for the maximum idle vacuum situation, first make sure the spark timing is at the baseline specification and specified rpm. Then adjust the idle mixture screws to their "best lean" setting, usually maximum rpm but just as the idle vaccuum starts to decrease from the highest level. Then fine tune the idle speed and mixture to the final specified values and that should also still be the highest vacuum level too, or extremely close to it. For good measure, you can also step to the back of the car and smell the exhaust for excessive hydrocarbon emissions--it should be pretty neutral in smell if things are "right" also. Usually, the stock configuration engines that will produce the highest manifold vacuums at idle will also have the most "low speed oriented" camshafts and smallest carburetors (with respect to engine size). As I understand, the earlier Buick V-8s used a little more camshaft duration and then used a little smaller than normal intake valve to build an engine with better torque characteristics and performance over a broader rpm range than might have been "usual" for engines of their sizes. So, use the manifold vacuum specs as a guide for values to aim for. As that reading is the result of a "pressure bias" between atmospheric pressure and what's in the intake manifold (higher and lower, respectively), altitude and probably barometric pressure can affect the readings at a particular location. Figure production differences into the mix and it could result in possibly a lower or higher value than the factory spec that was mentioned. As simple as it is, a vacuum gauge can be a really good diagnostic tool for tuning an engine and seeing if everything's in good condition internally. It worked for decades before electronics came into play. Hope this might help, NTX5467

Not sure about the particular carpet for the car, but I have been impressed by the products (OEM-spec items) from Auto Custom Carpet. They were one of the first companies to offer molded carpet for older vehicles in the correct weave, colors, AND floorpan shape. They do have a website. Where I first saw samples of their product was at a Corvette indoor show in Dallas in the middle 1980s. Zora was even there signing his book, so it was a pretty big show. We all know that Corvette people have tended to "lead the charge" in the earlier days of having exact things on their restored cars, even the casting numbers, stamp numbers, and other nit-picky things that no one worried about back then--except Corvette people and later on others did similar. They are one of the oldest companies in the reproduction carpet business and are also the supplier of many of the larger restortion companies for carpet items. One year at the Mopar Nats, it was not unusual to see their trailer backing up to the Year ONE trailer to replenish onsite stock, for example. Many of the vintage parts vendors do obtain their carpet and similar items from other suppliers that are also direct vendors to the public. These resellers do provide a good service to the hobby in many cases, but just like buying hot rod parts, any disputes will need to go directly to the main supplier for resolution, taking the entity you gave your money to out of the loop, usually. There are also other vendors similar to Auto Custom Carpet too, but I suspect ACC is the largest vendor and might also supply these other suppliers on some items. I always suspected that if they could satisfy the Corvette people with their products (which did look to be completely correct from what I have seen, back then), they can do well with other vehicles. Finding a main supplier that has the molds for the vehicle you need might be different situation, though. I have seen carpets done by upholstery shops, and they typically have sewn seams where the factory items did not. Might be a minor point to some, but I never did like seeing seams on the transmission hump unless the factory items had them too--just my orientation. But if that's all that can be found or made to work, that's fine. Unfortunately, finding an upholstery/trim shop that will take the time to do it right and also procure the carpet material and correct backing (if needed) to turn out a first-rate job can be time consuming and somewhat expensive compared to buying the pre-molded carpets that were already done. A situation where effective shopping (in person and on the Internet) might be beneficial. Hope this might help, NTX5467

One of our chapter members, a retired Buick service rep, ordered a '72 Skylark coupe (not hardtop) for his company car and then bought it for his mother after it went "out of service" in 1972. It is a normal 350 V-8 car, but with a THM400 in place of the THM350. He was surprised when he took initial delivery of it, but later found out that it got a THM400 instead of the more common THM350 due to a shortage of THM350s when the car was built. He tried to find out how many were built that way, but was not successful, as it seems to have been unique to only one shift that day. He also has the car now that his mother has passed on. Although the THM400 is a heavier duty transmission, the downside is that it takes about 15 more horsepower to run than a THM350, if that matters. I wouldn't go to the trouble to change it for any reason, though! Of course, the THM400 will have an electric kickdown switch that the THM350 does not. Oil pan shapes and case shape are unique to each trans too, as where the vacuum modulator is placed also is. Not much mistaking one for the other. If the numbers you've found do "match" and other items and documentation do also match, be glad of it and enjoy the car. A THM350 is pretty bulletproof anyway, but a THM400 is more so. Enjoy! NTX5467

Other than the possibility of some heavy duty chassis components (i.e., probably similar to the regular F41 suspension package of that era but with speical brake linings and maybe a few other durability items), I suspect there would be little difference in the specifications of a genuine Buick police package than that of a normal Buick with some wisely selected options (i.e., HD Cooling, trailering package, F41 suspension, performance rear axle ratio, PosiTraction, HD alternator). Where the genuine police package might be more significantly different would be in the interior trim (i.e., rubber floor mat instead of carpet, bucket seats with no center console, very plain upholstery vinyl on the seats). I suspect that as with other GM lines and Ford and Chrylser, they would build a police package vehicle with any engine from a 6 cylinder on up to the top performance big block. The automatic transmission would be the heaviest duty one offered, regardless of engine size/power, though. Not every police department wanted a big big block V-8 gulping gas as it sat there as an accident report was filled out, for example, so smaller engines were in the mix too. If that vehicle will ever be valuable, the documentation of its prior ownership will be important, just as finding a build sheet for it that might mention the COPO option code for a police car (similar to the famous "9C1" code for a Chevy police package, for example). As special as a Buick Police Car might be, I somewhat doubt, unfortunately, that it will make it a highly valuable vehicle in the future, but there also might be a member of the Police Car Collectors club that just might desire such a vehicle to restore. Everybody remembers that Kojak drove a Buick, even if it was not a LeSabre. It could make an interesting restoration project if it was a real police car or even a cloned police car due to the fact it's a Buick instead of a Ford or Plymouth. Something to think about . . . Personally, I've seen so many "D.A.R.E" police cars that are Mustangs or old Chevies that seeing a well-done Buick or even a Mopar police car would be something that would be neat and highly interesting. Taking some liberties with the exhaust and engine specs might help too, but not too wild either. Just some thoughts . . . NTX5467

Ken, one of the first things you need to do is look at growing a car club as a "marketing opportunity" of sorts. In other words, people have to know you exist in the first place. Sure, there will be a core group that will be there, but you also want to attract others that might not be in the same loop of things to know about car activities of Buick enthusiasts. In the late 1980s when I first became an officer in the North Texas Chapter, we started holding our meetings at a highly popular cruise location, the former Fenders Drive-In in Dallas. They were very car club friendly and had one of the largest and most well known Saturday night cruises in this part of the state. In other words, if you said you went to Fenders on Saturday, most of the car people knew what you were talking about (and also elevated your status a few notches in their eyes). They saved parking for our members on the street side of the parking lot as we met in the middle afternoon before the cruise event later that night. Therefore, if our members wanted to stay, they had a "ring side seat" of sorts for later on. Then we put a few, simple classified ads in the Dallas paper about the meeting place and time. We'd be standing out there before the meeting and see a vintage Buick with water still dripping off of it heading into the parking lot, fresh from the 25 cent car wash (in February!). It was neat. It gave the more conservative a chance to say they "went to Fenders" and gain some status with other car people plus they got to check it out in a slow time too--key factors--as they probably would never had gone there during the cruise time. So, the meeting place and advertising of the meeting can be one way to at least get new members in the door. Every car club is different, even for the same make and orientation of vehicle, so trying to make a Buick club be successful by doing the exact same things a Corvette club does might not work, therefore keying the types of activities to the members and their orientations might be recommended. Some of the orientations might be the same, but the particular activities would be different, in many cases. In the Mopar club I'm a charter member of, when I was an officer in the earlier times, we tryed to use the club meeting as a springboard for our members to also attend other activities as a club after the meeting (7:00pm on Saturday night), like going to PuttPutt for a golf outing with some simple awards for low scores (or whatever) or even meeting earlier and attending a cruise event en masse. In other words, the members had driven about 30+ minutes to the meeting place (a restaurant meeting room) for a meal and a meeting, so we tried to plan an after-meeting event to make it more worth their while. How effective this is can vary, but the extra activities afterward gave them the opportunity to do something than "go out to eat with some friends". Also, do NOT forget to urge the spouses and children to be involved in the club and its activities. This ONE factor is very important for many reasons that also relate to the growth of the club in the future. Key thing is that the members feel they are receiving a good return on their investment in the club's treasury AND the BCA membership costs. Everybody needs to be friends and everybody needs to have fun--period. Obviously, there's lots of car events in Florida so you might scout out what's going on and target one event each month for your group to attend as a club activity of sorts and then also not forgetting the weekend events that happen weekly. All of these events are in addition too, but can include, the monthly chapter meeting. Driving or cruise activities can be fun if you have a car that will tolerate that type of activity, so don't chastise those who want to drive their newer Buicks or possibly other makes, but giving the Buicks priority in the line up of the procession. Key thing is participation, regardless of what type of condition the car is in. So, effective marketing to let people know you exist (which might include networking with other clubs in the area), keeping things simple and active with planned out activites for several months in the future, soliciting ideas from the members themselves (maybe even put them on the lookout for new things to do and then see if others also want to do those things as a group--and will then show up to do that), and just trying to have fun with Buicks. What I have not mentioned is members helping other members with their projects. This can be a very effective way to build a culture of the chapter that others might desire to be a part of. Members helping members for everyone's mutual benefit. At some point in time, the size of the active chapter membership can tend to plateau. One of those things that if things get much bigger, finding a meeting place to hold everyone can become a problem. This can be a blessing and a hindrance at the same time which further points up the fact that there is no ideal time or place to have a meeting, just what works better for the majority of those who are attending. But, it seems to me that if the later Saturday afternoon or middle Saturday afternoon time frames are used correctly, they offer the greatest flexibility of getting the members out of the house and IN the car to go do something (as in going to the meeting) and them to some other car event later on that night than any other time of the week. The dynamics just seem to work so much better to me than a Sunday afternoon or week day meeting time, but your situation might be vary. Saturday is usually a "day to play" and playing with cars can certainly fit into that orientation. Some of the chapters seem to do regular driving tours to musesums or other locales, participate in other clubs' show events, parades, and we've also had some success with a short out of town trip on Saturdays. Many also do their own local or regional Buick show events on a yearly basis too. Highly variable about what works and when it will work best. but planning a few months in advance always helps. Hope this might have helped some. Best of luck in your activities down there! Willis Bell 20811 N TX Chapter, BCA

What Roberta has mentioned is one scenario that might be of benefit. Basically, there are two ACDelco starter units from which many applications have resulted. The basic housing comes in two lengths, which is obvious by the length of the spacer at the end of the solenoid. The "HD" version has a longer basic black case unit and also had to have a longer spacer at the end of the solenoid for things to work correctly. Some of the later years might have a case that gets slightly smaller in outside diameter as it progresses away from the end housing, instead of it being the same diameter all of its length (possibly a way to save a pound in vehicle weight in the later years?). Onto the basic starter unit, whether "std" or "HD", the various end housings are assembled that make those same base units in to starter assemblies fit many GM engines and also non-GM OEM applications too. I suspect that if you determine which base housing/case length you need and if it's constant diameter or had the two outside diameter sections of the same case, the rest should be easy. Cosmetics will not vary greatly in most situations. In fact, as most of the OEM production units had a 7 digit Delco/GM number on them, you can chase some of those if you desire (correct stamp number and correct production date codes too) or its necessary for the type of judged show events and such. On the inside, the number of field coils will usually be related to the case length as will the armature. Once you get past those length-related differences, everything else should be pretty much common (part wise). If, per chance, you do find a starter on a junk motor in a salvage yard for the application you have, get the starter and the flywheel/flexplate and any shims that might be in it--especially if they look like they are all original parts for the engine. That might generate a complete "matched set" of end housing, flywheel, and basic starter unit from which the whole problem might be fixed. This idea might work ONLY if it all looks like it came from the factory with nothing being altered over the years. There were many applications where Chevrolet used the longer case "HD" starter back in the 1960s-1980s. Unfortunately, it's a look and see issue as no parts book will probably mention "HD" or standard, unless it's the 1979-1986 Chevy pickup parts book--back then, if you bought a HD battery on a new pickup, you automatically got the HD starter to go with it, so a starter part listing with the note of "w/HD Battery" might be significant if it's for a non-454 engine (which would have had the larger starter anyway). What it boils down to is that the price can vary somewhat between the various GM/Chevrolet applications so shopping for application AND price (due to some applications being more popular than others or higher sales volume or whatever) might be advisable, yet somewhat time consuming and trying for the parts person you might be dealing with. Police car applications might be another area to look for along with the light duty trucks also. Remember, we're trying to find a higher torque starter for a Chevrolet application and then that case will be put with a Buick application end housing for the upgraded crossbreed starter. Hope this might help, NTX5467

There is a parts lookup section of the ACDelco website (www.ACDelco.com). I rather suspect you'll end up with a 78-6YR battery. As what you have should be a side post battery, there should not be any issues with terminal locations and such. There is also a "dual terminal" version with top post and side post terminals too, 78DT-6YR. I don't recall the CCA on that particular battery, but it should be fine for what you have. There is a 78-7YR (7 year pro-rate warranty) that has a little more CCA, but is higher priced also. I suspect that if the alternator and other charging system items are in good shape, then a 75-6YR (next size down from the 78 series) would work ok or even a 75-7YR also. With modern batteries, size does not always mean a better battery for the application as even the small ones now have much more CCAs in them than the older larger batteries did, yet I understand the rationale of wanting the biggest thing that will fit in there. Check out the ACDelco website as their recommendations will most closely mirror the original GM application. Enjoy! NTX5467

One scenario which has not been mentioned is "repaired plant damage", which would be minor repairs done to the vehicle during it's initial plant "time" or as it went down the assembly line or before it was transferred to the truck transport company's lot. Unfortunately, I've seen some things on new cars that I would not have accepted if I'd been a dealer. Also, I understand the truck transport companys typically have their own body/repair shop for things that happen to the vehicles while they are in their custody--or at least they used to back in the 1970s. I once saw a new Chrysler New Yorker that a dealer refused to accept as the whole exhaust system was not attached, back in about 1974. While some of these situations are probably very rare, it's possible they can still possibly happen. As has been noted, there are a multitude of scenarios of how the initial damage might have occured--even on a test drive, perhaps--and why it might not have been called to your attention at the time of purchase. Demo units might still be considered "new", but they have many more miles on them than a non-demo "new" vehicle and I perceive that can be an important distinction, plus how the dealership is handling the situation. Perhaps it might be advisable to step back, take a breath, and make a determination of "what is reasonable and prudent" and also if there might have been any wrongful "intent" on the part of the dealership people in the first place. Your state's Attorney General's office can be a great resource, if you choose to go that direction. That decision is yours. NTX5467

I'm glad things worked out well for you. At the dealership side of things, sometimes it can appear that technicians are being a little too opportunistic in writing repair estimates. But there can be a reasonable explanation if you consider what it's like on the tech's side of things. For example, if a tech writes an estimate they probably should look at other things on the vehicle that might need attention before they cause problems, just as the prior service station operatives did in prior times (especially the ones we trusted and relied upon for such information). Sure, it can make for a seemingly excessive list, but if the dealership tech notes these things on paper, then should the particular item fail in the near future, there is a record of the possible problem area needing attention and the fact that repairs were declined. That does two things--it documents the situation at the dealership level should the customer come back and want it repaired for free (after all, the technician "touched it") even though they declined the prior repair for whatever reason. Second, it prevents a situation where the technician does not note the possible failure and when the customer takes the vehicle to a private repair facility, if during the course of the conversation with that facility's operatives the fact that it was recently in a dealership, those operatives make the comment "They should have seen that getting ready to happen as they are supposed to know those cars better than anyone else, but I see it and would have recommended taking care of it for you". A couple of considerations there that might not be readily apparent. A "no win" situation in some respects, but hopefully all diagnosis are accurate in the process too. Are some techs more into that than others? Sure, but it's not specifically a dealership situation either. Somewhere, in the mix of only looking at what's on the repair order for an estimate or also looking for other items that might need attention, I would hope there's a happy medium as it takes the tech's time to write that extensive estimate in the first place and the parts person's and service advisor's time in following through on the situation. Of course, the customer has the opportunity to decline anything they don't want done. Colateral situations to the original issue can develope in some cases too. Technician work schedules really should not be a concern of the customer, but some service advisors might be more interested in writing tickets than if the work really gets processed in a reasonable amount of time. In a best case scenario, the dispatcher and/or shop foreman and/or service manager should advise the service writers of those situations and also put a halt to major work that comes in prior to a holiday so that few jobs are held over due to employee vacations or similar. But, everyone tends to be under pressure to produce "numbers" during a traditionally slow time of the year, so that can complicate matters too. It is unfortunate that it took that long for the first dealership to get back with you on their estimate and that their diagnosis appears to have been inaccurate. I am glad you did get the situation taken care of and that it was at a lesser price. I am also disappointed that it was a missed diagnosis, though, as that doesn't make anyone look good. I might also recommend that you check the maintenance schedule for your vehicle with respect to changing the supercharger oil. Many are unaware of this possible situation or trade the vehicle before the mileage specification for that change (the first year of production of the Park Avenue Ultras with the supercharger did not have provisions to change the oil, but the later ones do). Thanks for the update and glad things worked out ok, NTX5467