LCK81403

The Bay State and Rossel automobiles. I have been reading through issues of “The Automobile” of year 1910, on Google books. In the September 1910 issue, on pages 398-399 there is an article titled, “Mont Ventoux Hill Climb”. Datelined August 29th of 1910, at Avignon, France, the article is about European cars and one American car undertaking timed races up an elevation from 970 feet to 6,216 feet. The American automobile was named “Rossel” three times in print, and there is a photograph of the car where it crashed off the course at 60 MPH. The reproduced photo, Fig. 4 from the article, is attached. The caption for the photo identifies the crashed car as a “Six-cylinder Rossel car….” I had never known of a Rossel make of automobile, and therefore some research was needed. The history that I have found is very limited and incomplete. However, regarding the Rossel I found on the web site American-Automobiles.com a reproduced ad for the Bay State Forty car, manufactured by the Bay State Auto Company, Boston. The ad shows that a Rossel Drisko was the manager of the company, and the year category is 1906-1908. The ad further says the engine of the Bay State car was a four cylinder. Ref: https://american-automobiles.com/bay-state/ A second American-Automobiles.com posting for the Bay State and R. H. Long Company shows a year category of 1922-1924. While this year category is well after the 1910 article about the Rossel automobile, it does show the Bay State automobile was equipped with a powerful six cylinder Continental engine. There is a good deal of history of the Bay State automobile that I have not yet uncovered. I am curious about the car named a Rossel. It seems that Mr. Rossel Drisko named a car after himself, and since he was the plant manager of the Bay State Automobile Company, the “Rossel” car must have been a Bay State car. It seems curious that a legally named automobile, Bay State, would be raced under the name of the production plant’s manager. This seems to be especially so given that the hill climb race was in a foreign country where the automobile brand and manufacturer is competing for name recognition and sales. One last analytical conclusion. If the information is correct in the American-Automobiles.com article about the 1906-08 Bay State, by 1910 the company had a six cylinder engine in the “Rossel” car raced and crashed in France. The Google book article is found at this URL, September 8, 1910, pages 398-399. https://books.google.com/books?id=p8sqAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA948&dq=kissel&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj767HY6efmAhXMGs0KHeqPApQQ6AEwBHoECAEQAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

Ben, I came across the Lorraine info on this web site: http://www.earlyamericanautomobiles.com/americanautomobiles7a.htm It is a sad story of David Dunbar Buick starting Buick Mfg. Co in 1902 and then left the company in 1908, then died broke in 1929. Anyway, I was wondering what happened to the one-off Lorraine car because it is a unique piece of history. Thank you for following up on this. One day I would like to take a look at that Lorraine.

Does anyone know what happened to the 1921 Lorraine that was built by David Dunbar Buick after he left Buick autos? I understand that only one '21 Lorraine was built, hence I am wondering what happened to the car. I have compared the '21 Lorraine with a '21 Buick and notice that the fenders are generally similar, and the overall appearance of the Lorraine was generally similar to comparable cars at that time. It doesn't appear that the Lorraine broke any new design boundaries. But it is a unique on-off car based on David Buick.

Wow, that is a smart fire chief's vehicle. The brass bell is a really cool feature. What is the make and year of it? It resembles about a 1910 Kissel and also a '10 Alco.

The bezel measures 10 1/8 inches diameter. There is an "eye" on the can, shown in the photo I just posted. I also posted a pix of the bottom of the can where it has a bracket that must attached to the fender and to a support arm inside the fender. This headlight can is different than my 1920 headlights. My '20 lights do not have an "eye", and the mounting bracket is part of the cross-bar.

A friend has a pair of '26 Buick headlights for sale. Just the metal cans and removable surrounds, no glass. They are in pretty good shape. One can has a dent in it that could be worked out. They need to be stripped and painted, and chromed. Anyone have an idea of a ballpark price for them?

There are practical solutions to the battery problem with electric cars. I don't necessarily agree that the "future is stupid", as the captioned photo shows, but there are some teething problems with the electrics. Turn the clock back to the days before gasoline stations, when gasoline was purchased from a drug store. Gas stations weren't everywhere for a good long time in early automobile days. Not to mention the gasoline that was available was pretty bad stuff. There are a lot of articles in various publications from the 1907-1910 era discussing various additives in gasoline as attempts to increase the oxygen content. It is interesting to read about the learning curves of automobile manufacturers, engineers, and interested citizens in working to, trying to improve automotive technology and performance. In those days of the many electric brands of cars and trucks in service, basically they (in 1908) achieved the same mileage per battery loads that are achieved by today's "high tech" electric cars. That in spite of today's vastly superior tire, suspension, and streamlined body designs. Basically electric vehicles are no better mileage performers in year 2020 than the electrics were in 1908. While there are major mechanical differences between gasoline powered vehicles in 1908 and 2020, unfortunately the mileage-per-gallon difference is not all that great. The early 2 cylinder and 4 cylinder cars turned in acceptable mileage figures even by today's standard. My 1950 Plymouth turned in a solid 11 miles per gallon, my 1965 Mustang, inline 6 cylinder and 3-speed manual would consistently turn in 29 miles per gallon, while a VW bug at that time would turn in 30 or 32 mpg. Even from the days of 1965 our modern economy cars have not made really major improvements in mileage performance. My 1982 Subaru (4-speed manual) generally turned in a solid 25 or 26 mpg. By comparison my buddies '24 Model T Ford would turn in 24 mpg. Today's top mileage leaders are turning in mpg's in the high 30s, even 45 and pushing 50. And they are doing that with smaller and lighter cars, smaller engines and turbo chargers. Not sure where I am rambling to with this, but I think the electrics need to be given at least an atta boy for trying. While a gas buggy is dependent on oil pumped out of the ground, an electric is also dependent on some form of energy. It is all about energy conversion from one form into another to make it useful to propel a conveyance.

Here is a good piece of history for the Buick Wildcat people. The story of Belmont 86, the SR-71 spy plane that made an emergency landing in Norway after spying over Murmansk. Excerpts from the URL posted below: “… A spare “engine start cart,” a machine containing 2 Buick Wildcat engines in tandem and specifically designed to mechanically rotate the SR-71 engines for start…” “… our first engine-start attempt failed. … On the second attempt … the connecting rod glowed red-hot just before the aircraft engine reached the start rpm.” Buick Wildcat saved the day for the U.S. Air Force. https://theaviationgeekclub.com/the-story-of-belmont-86-the-sr-71-that-made-an-emergency-landing-in-norway-after-spying-over-murmansk/?fbclid=IwAR1RXNlv15L5hCttPslUg0wZm96Mdes8P1sjgGVe0-st0GgkWUnONmK50hc

That is an interesting and nice looking vehicle. It is nice to see that today's auto enthusiasts are interested and appreciative of a variety of antique and old cars. Back 55 years ago when I showed up with an absolutely beautiful 1935 Terraplane 4-door (original 24,000 miles car) it didn't get much respect from the old timers who had Model-Ts, Chalmers, and right hand drive Buicks. The Terraplane wasn't a "real" antique car. Your vehicle looks like a motorized version of a horse-drawn wagon that was on my grandfather's farm. It is a real piece of history to see a vehicle like yours.

Ah so, that is interesting and it makes a lot of sense. Thanks a lot.

Here is a little tougher photo to identify the make of car. At first I though it maybe was a Buick of about 1920 vintage, but now I am more inclined to think it is a Dodge. Anyone recognize the dash panel layout?

I enjoy reading the old journals, on Google books as well as old original publications. I came across a short article in The Automobile, dated July 21, 1910, page 117, column 2, under the subheading "Agency and Garage News". Here is the text of the article: "The Buick Motor Company this week moved into its new rooms at 509-513 Erie street, where it now has one of the best garages and repair departments in Toledo. Three floors and basement are used by the concern, a huge elevator serving to hoist cars to any part of the building. The first floor is devoted to the storing of cars, the second floor to the repair work. A complete parts department will be maintained, where every piece entering a Buick or Reliance truck can be secured." Several observations come to the fore. One, did Buick produce a truck called the Reliance? Two, did Buick produce the Reliance automobile and truck? I have a file holding with both a Reliance automobile and a Reliance truck, but none of the addresses provided by the advertising shows any connection to Buick. The 1905 Reliance automobile and 1908 truck show up manufactured in Detroit, while the 1905 Buick Model B was manufactured in Flint, Michigan. Comparing photos of original 1905 advertising for the Reliance Detroit and the Buick Flint, they appear to be the same car or very similar. I know that manufactures produced various name brand cars and even trucks at the same time, including mixtures of gasoline and electric vehicles. Studebaker, Garford, E.M.F., Flanders, Thomas, Pope and others. However, until now I have not found even this tenuous connection between Buick and another name brand vehicle. Hopefully someone may clarify this new information, at least it being new to me.

I need a radiator mounted emblem for a 1920 Buick. Someone tried to remove the one from my Buick and managed to ruin it. Are there new repros of this, and/or where can I get one?

After many years I am finally ready to part with the owner's manual came with my 1950 Plymouth. It was a beauty, dark blue, four door. I loved the car and drove it while in high school 60 years ago. The car is long gone and I have recently discovered the original manual in my stuff. It is in good shape, as if it came out of the glove compartment yesterday. I normally am on the Buick speedster site; just stopped in here to see if a Plymouth person is interested in the manual and other paperwork associated with it.

Ron, thank you for the information about sealing the windshield frame on the cowl. It is interesting that an extruded rubber gasket was not used. I notice that the windshield frame of the 21 Kissel Tourster is similar but different than the 23 Gold Bug windshield. I know that Kissel's were custom built, but one would think that a windshield frame was more of an off-the-shelf, stock item. In studying and comparing your two photos, however, I see that the shape of the Tourster's cowl is different enough to cause the windshield frame to be different. Both designs are pretty cool looking. There are differences and similarities of windshield mounting on the 23 Kissel compared with the Daniels D-19. The Kissel uses an angled brace toward the rear to stabilize the windshield frame while the Daniels does not. Without that brace on the Kissel, would there be structural problems related to the weight of the complete windshield, vibration, and wind loading modulation? From factory floor photos in the Kissel work shop we know that Kissel bodies were wood frame. Thus far I have not discovered any factory information nor photos of how the Daniels body frames were manufactured, whether of wood or welded metal. Is it possible that the Daniels had a welded metal body frame and therefore a more secure mount for the windshield, versus Kissel's wood frame that could become weakened by vibration and and alternating wind loading (without the two support arms)? LeRoy

Question regarding mounting a windshield on a Kissel Gold Bug. Is there a rubber gasket or some other material (caulk?) between the bottom of the metal windshield frame and the metal of the cowl? The attached photo seems to show a black rubber molded gasket, but I can not be totally sure. If that is a gasket, it is a unique shape and probably no longer available from NOS barnfind Kissel components. What is the story on that important element?

I am catching up on reading material by going through a September, 1907 copy of the Cycle and Automobile Trade Journal. During the period August 5-10, 1907 there was an Automobile Carnival at Atlantic City, N.J., with part of the festivities being races. A segment of the article is titled, "A Peculiar Accident," and it reads in part: "The only other event in which the mile was made under a minute was the special race for stock touring cars against time. The six-cylinder Stearns of Leeland was the only starter and after covering the course in 44 flat, just after passing the line the fly-wheel of the speeding car burst sending part of the floor boards and the dash high into the air and badly damaging the motor. No one was injured but the car could not compete in the next day’s races." That must have been quite a thrill for the driver. Yikes.

OldBuicks2 -- the two hood latches are on the way. I mailed them this morning -- U.S. Postal Service. The total (postage and little CD box) came to $5.35. LeRoy.

Spinneyhill, I gather you are referring to the broken left rear axle on the Buick. It was broken once, welded, and then it broke again. I can't be sure, but I suspect that it may have been broken and welded twice, before the final break. I imagine that the welding and induced heat did not do any favors to the metal, and perhaps reheating/welding compounded the problem.

Yes, I have only two hood latches. There are supposed to be six but some scrounger removed four of them. You can have them if you want them, and if you pay the postage. Send your mailing address and I'll ship them off to you. LeRoy.

OK, Morgan, it so happens I do have a 1920 Buick distributor cap. It appears to be in the best condition of anything on this derelict car. Sure, if someone needs it, wants it, let me know. Please do not ask about my speedometer. Apparently a field mouse ate the digits off of the display. Of course, if you realllllly need a vintage, seasoned speedometer then I have just the item you need. The price will be right. I deal in only the finest mouse eaten speedometers.

Well, I have been slowly disassembling this 99 year-old Buick. It sat outside for many years. Anything that could rust is most definitely rusted. I can not crank the engine to learn if it is free or stuck, because I do not have a crank. I have tried to push in on spring-loaded shaft and turn the engine a little with a wrench but I simply could not do it. I do not know if the engine is free or stuck. The car originally was a touring car but all of the wood was gone, only some of the sheet metal exists, some of the metal was so bad that I tossed it. The poor car apparently had been used as a tractor or heavy towing vehicle. The left rear axle housing was broken at least two time, possibly three times. There is a lot of welding evidence there. In addition, the last weld that was done to it is broken. One of the hubs was also broken and welded back together at some time. The radiator appears to have been repaired probably three or maybe four times. I can see old wasp nests inside of the radiator. All four fenders had rough lives; all are dented, torn, amateur welding, and rust. Buick assembled these fenders from two parts, much like a tin can is put together with a rolled crimp. The joins of the rolled crimp are coming apart and quite rusted. All of the rods that connect foot pedals and the floor mounted lever are severely rusted and penetrating oils absolutely will not penetrate. The rust has basically fused the metal into solids, probably by growth of ferrous crystals. The two attached photos show a towing "hitch" ? bolted onto a braket where the left-rear spring pack attached. The close-up photo shows that the axle housing was broken, welded, and subsequently broken again. Apparently the engine had enough power to not only split the piece of pipe welded onto the bracket, and also break the axle housing several times. The towing device on the right side appears to be fine, and the axle housing is not broken. I have no clue what in the world this car was used for to cause this damage. Engine wise, there is between a 1/4 and a 1/2 inch of baked on crud on the engine. Scrapping with a putty knife gets some of it off, and a chisel and a little tapping with a hammer also helps break off hunks and chunks. In my opinion, because these old cars ran without any kind of air filtration, the inside of the engine more than likely is not in good condition. I do not see any economic sense in having this engine remanufactured. I am sure it could be done at a substantial cost, a cost that would not make my spouse happy. My intention is to make a speedster out of the hulk. Basically I intend to keep the frame, and spring packs. I may or may not keep the radiator shell, depending on if I can do something with the poor welding that was done on one mounting bracket. The firewall of the cowl will be a beginning point to build a body, and the rest of the cowl will be junked. I have been studying how to reengineer the windshield stanchions from its touring configuration into a speedster configuration, more along the lines of a Kissel or Daniels. I have been seriously studying the dimensions of various modern replacement engines. The interior of the '20 Buick's hood appears to be a little too narrow for a Chevy 327 / 350 small block. Consequently the speedster probably will have to be built with a straight 6 cylinder such as a Chevy 235 or Ford 300 cu. in. I kind of favor the Chevy, being a G.M. engine in a Buick. It's a 130 H.P. I think I would like to use a Ford 9 inch rear end with a 3:55 gear ratio, and a manual transmission. That would be an adequate package. It wouldn't have the sound of a 327 V-8, but the straight 6 would still work out pretty good.

Hmmm. Port holes in the hood of a Daniels? I do not have many examples the Daniels speedsters, but I am not familiar with port holes in the hood. Where are the holes located. Do you have a photo?

Hmmm. I have not seen a Daniels touring car like that. I surely doesn't have nearly the same glitz as the '21 D-19 "Submarine" speedster. The Daniels had a 130 inch wheelbase, which makes it appear longer than a similar Kissel. The hood on the Daniels appears to be long enough to cover a straight 8 engine. When the hood is open the V-8 looks like it has plenty of space in the roomy engine compartment.

Thank you, one and all for the posted replies. I appreciate your effort. It looks like Denver is my closest encounter for a Kissel. I have had the hots for a Kissel for many years, ever since I road in the rumble seat of a Gold Bug on a Fall Foilage tour in Minnesota, back about 1966 or so. I was back home from the Army at that time. At that time that beautiful yellow Kissel belonged to Mr. and Mrs. Johnson, of Cokato, Minnesota. I finished college in 1969 and immediately hired on with The Company. In 1972 I returned from an overseas assignment and met up with the Johnson's again. At the time they had the Kissel and a beautifully restored Rickenbacher roadster for sale. The price was $7,500 for both cars. The only problem -- I was married and we only had exactly $7,500 in the bank. I try not to think about "the one that got away." As compensation I ended up with a 1935 Terraplane four door sedan at a price of $300. The Terraplane was 100 percent original, from the original owner, and it had the original battery, tires, World War Two ration stickers on the windshield, and it had 24,000 original miles. The attached photo was taken in a park in Waconia, Minnesota.