540K

I am planning to be at the Concours of America this month, and Pebble Beach Concours next month. Would like to meet any of you regular PreWar M-B posters. Let me know if you're going to either show.

The Rick Cole Monterey auction will feature the 540K Sport Cab A 130945. This will be the fourth time in six years it has been sold. It went from $2M to $3M between 2008-11, and stayed there in 2012. Will two more years change the price?

The basket case Aktion P sold today for $766,000. Not bad for something that will need $1M in restoration. But it is allegedly one of only 3 survivors.

You raise a good issue, but I sort of doubt it. This wasn't a personal vehicle that was stolen or commandeered by the Reich, it was Goring's personal vehicle, and the provenance is well documented. The car that was repossessed in 2012 was a civilian car that was, apparently, stolen from them during the war. At least, that was the basis for the court taking it away from the guy who paid $3M for it. I am still very curious how all that shook out. There must have been contracts that indemnified the auction company, but did the seller give back the buyer's money or was he smart enough to sell it without any title guarantee? And if the seller gave back the money, did he have any recourse against whomoever he bought if from? In any event, the buyer made the mistake of showing the car in Germany - probably the one place where he could have run into trouble. If he had just kept the car in the US, I think his defense as a purchaser for (extreme) value would have been very strong. It is an interesting question, however. Apparently, the victor can keep what legitimately belonged to the defeated, but cannot acquire title to things that were stolen by the defeated. I have not heard of a Nazi-owned vehicle being claimed by his family. Has anyone else?

I believe you are right because the high rollers may not watch eBay as a matter of course, and they won't get the personal service and assurances that the majors can offer. Some might point out the car got a fair amount of worldwide publicity on the proposed eBay sale, and there's something to be said for an auction running 7-10 days vs. 5-10 minutes. And, let's say they want to clear $2.5M; on ebay they only need a bid a couple of hundred dollars higher; with the big boys, the bid would have to be over a quarter-million higher. To clear $3.5M, the bid would have to be almost a 1/2M more. Your point, and I agree, is that the big boys have the connections to get more high rollers bidding than eBay does. They can actively work towards a sale before the auction, as opposed to eBay just being passive. My understanding is that the major auction houses have some cars "pre-sold" before bidding starts, in the sense that they know the reserve will be met, and it's just a matter of how high the bidding will go.

eBay has refused to host the auction for the Goring 540K, despite the fact there have been thousands of sales of Nazi material on eBay for years. A search on eBay for "Nazi" returned over 25,000 items currently up for sale, from swastika-ladened stamps and coins to artwork alleged to be Nazi loot. There is no allegation the car was stolen during WWII like the roadster that was repossessed a couple of years ago. Clearly the eBay decision is hypocritical and IMO a really stupid business decision by eBay. If they had a policy of refusing all nazi-related sales, fine, but they don't. If it was a weapon or instrument of atrocity, fine - don't host it, but it is just a car. I don't understand why the owner did not use RM, Gooding or Bonham's anyway. They have sold Aktion P's (one coming up for auction day after tomorrow) and other Reich-commissioned or used vehicles. After typing this it came to me why the owners would use eBay to sell the car - I believe the maximum fee for auto sales is $125, versus 10% or more commission on likely a multi-million-dollar sale for the big auction houses.

If the Goring car went up on ebay, I didn't see it. I found a reference to the owner restoring it, to be shown at the 2016 Pebble Beach concours. On a side note, I saw the Bugatti exhibit at the Mullin Automotive Museum yesterday. Awesome. Runs through the end of the year, I believe. If you get a chance, go. Make sure to have advance tickets. There were 3 or 4 car clubs there yesterday, and they limit attendance each of the few days each month the museum is open. The Royale Coupe de Ville Binder was worth the trip by itself. I think this is one of the cars I saw at Harrah's in the 1970's when I was a teenager. I did not know until yesterday that this car is the rebodied Royale Esders. That explains why I keep seeing seven body styles when there were only six chassis.

It's going to be a busy summer for 500K and 540K shoppers. We're up to seven to be sold at auction by Bonham's, RM and eBay, believe it or not! The latest is a 1934 500/540K roadster (factory swapped engine) donated to charity expected to bring $4.8M in Stuttgart, but being a charity car, watch the price climb. An Aktion P will be at Goodwood. The unrestored Goring Cab B is supposed to go up on eBay, but I can't imagine it will meet reserve; probably just a publicity stunt. Pretty wide selection for all you shoppers - Nazi cars, Mayfair, Mulliner, roadster, cab's, one-offs. Still weeks before the summer auction lists will be complete.

http://blog.mercedes-benz-passion.com/2014/05/ein-stern-kehrt-zurueck-mercedes-benz-restaurierte-mercedes-benz-540-k-stromlinienwagen-von-1938/ Nice article on the recently unveiled restored 1938 540K Stromlinien Limousine

I don't have the wheel here to do any measuring. 8-bolt pattern may or may not be original, as it was fitted with splines for a knockoff.

I would have to agree pre-war, though some of the Bugatti Royale's were pretty spectacular. And you might get an argument re the "spatted" Delahayes, Talbot teardrop and other Bugattis. Post-war I really like the Jaguar XK-120 coupe's fenders.

I've seen a welded patch covered with Kevlar and then titanium.

A good lawyer could turn this language inside out to the point it could have any of several meanings or at least leave a jury uncertain, despite what was intended and how it is perhaps commonly interpreted. Just saying - "It depends what your definition of "is" is. :cool:

Lots of very good issues raised on both sides. Here's one point that I didn't see raised, though I may have skimmed past it. With some classic cars, the customer could order from a list of as many as a dozen body styles to be built on a particular chassis. Or, the customer could take the chassis to an independent coachbuilder for a non-factory or non-catalog body. Cars with bodies made by Figoni et Falaschi or Chapron or Saoutchik are not looked down upon because the bodies weren't made by the Bugatti, Delahaye, Talbot-Lago or Delage factories. Customers also could take their barely-"used", almost new cars back to the factory or a coachbuilder and change the body completely or have a later engine swapped in. Some of those "non-original" cars are highly revered and highly "awarded" today. With cars of that era, who's to say that later owners shouldn't have the same options? I believe it was either Nethercutt or Mullin who stated that he didn't care what color a car was painted originally, he should have the same color options that the original owner had. That is a valid argument. I realize I am stretching the comment about paint color a long way to body styles, but the general idea is the same - (certain) cars were made to customer order (really putting the "custom" in "customer"), and many were significantly changed without destroying their classic standing. Change is almost inherent. How many concours-quality cars have bodies that were recreated to their factory style, but without using even a scrap of original metal? Why should a car with no significant trace of the original body be considered more "correct" than a car that is otherwise factory-correct but for being restored with a different but also correct body style? I realize you're going to say "Because it left the factory that way," but my point is that there is an argument to be made that (assuming honest description) a re-bodied/recreated/replica car with an original chassis and engine should only be viewed as different in terms of market value, not worthiness to be considered on the concours field. All of us can site examples of a box of parts being "restored" into a concours car. If you are going to object to correct but non-original bodies, I am going to object to "factory" cars with an insignificant amount of original material remaining, and we will all find ourselves on a slippery slope. I am very lucky to have avoided this issue with my car. I found a war-damaged original chassis and engine and am having a correct but non-original body made for it. It left the factory as a cabriolet, but that body did not survive the war at all. The car is being restored (my choice from among all the "r" words) as a roadster. This chassis could have been originally used this way. My car will not be allowed on some judging fields, and even if so will suffer a huge penalty, even though it will be restored in all ways correctly. I accept those rules and also the effect on market value. I am glad I did not have to face the question whether to remove an original cabriolet body in order to have a roadster, because I'm not sure I could have. After all, both body styles are relatively rare, and both are beautiful. I am merely placing myself in the same position as the original customer and choosing from among the original catalog bodies for this chassis.

I need help figuring out what these 17" wheels came from. Ignore the five balancing weights and the knockoff made to look like a 1930's Mercedes. This is a 60-spoke wire wheel. All I know is that one of the previous owners intended to make a replica of an Auburn Speedster out of a WWII-damaged car, but never got any farther than putting these wheels on. They do not look like Auburn wheels to me, but maybe they are. These wheels will eventually be for sale, probably some time next year, but I've got to figure out what they are first. Thanks for any help.

I have an extra copy of Jan Melin's Mercedes-Benz Supercharged 8-Cylinder Cars of the 1930's for sale or trade. The first fly (blank) page was carefully removed but otherwise mint - no text or photos are missing. I am looking for these books at a reasonable price: From Passion to Perfection, the Story of French Streamlined Styling 1930-1939 Bugatti Evolution of a Style The Art of Bugatti Possibly other books featuring the coachbuilding of Figoni et Falaschi, Saoutchik, Chapron or books on Duesenberg. Also collecting original sales brochures, manuals, parts for 1934-1937 Mercedes-Benz 500K and 540K autos, and artwork featuring the Special Roadster model of those cars. Please tell me what you have, condition and price/trade offer. Thanks.

I have an extra copy of Jan Melin's Mercedes-Benz Supercharged 8-Cylinder Cars of the 1930's for sale or trade. The first fly (blank) page was carefully removed but otherwise mint - no text or photos are missing. I am looking for these books at a reasonable price: From Passion to Perfection, the Story of French Streamlined Styling 1930-1939 Bugatti Evolution of a Style The Art of Bugatti Possibly other books featuring the coachbuilding of Figoni et Falaschi, Saoutchik, Chapron or books on Duesenberg. Also collecting original sales brochures, manuals, parts for 1934-1937 Mercedes-Benz 500K and 540K autos, and artwork featuring the Special Roadster model of those cars. Please tell me what you have, condition and price/trade offer. Thanks.

I need help finding a photo of a Special Roadster (the Sam Mann car, for example) that shows the spare cover lock clearly. It's at the bottom of the trim that runs down the "fin" and forms a handle on the covered spare version of the car. It's that round area in the photo below. I need to know whether the lock cover slides to the side or flips up, and whether the key is square or a regular key with teeth. My guess is it flips up like the rumble seat lock cover, and is a square key. Does anyone have a good photo of the back end of either the silver Sam Mann car or one of the others with covered spare? Here's one I took, but not clear enough. Thanks!!

RM has added the very rare 1934 500K Mayfair Tourer to the Monterey roster. Looks like a roadster with a back seat. Really gangly with the top up, and there's something off about the transition from front fender to running board. Odd that the catalog has about 25 photos, but none of the left side of the car.

I like it too, but I don't think I would choose it over the standard front end. It looks like a resto-mod and much less stately. The car does look smaller for some reason.

RM Monterey will auction the one-off 540K Special Cabriolet with the pointed grill. It sold in 2007 (little over $1M) and 2010 (only $913K). Beautiful car, and really different from its siblings. I won't be surprised to see its value reverse course and head back up toward $1.75M. Bonham's has two supercharged cars in its Stuttgart sale so far.

Wow. What a buzz kill. I believe you take this topic far too seriously. No one has argued "best/most" lists are more than one or a limited number of persons' opinion. Even Kane and Brauer qualify their article with admissions that it is not definitive, that no two people will agree and that it includes non-beauty factors such as performance, firsts and, of all things, having been in a popular movie. So who are you arguing with? I did not get past the first word in your post before being insulted. You just lumped 318 million people into a generalization that all Americans' knowledge and opinions are the same, that they are different than other nationalities, and you seem to be arguing Americans' opinions are worth less on this subject. That you have, insincerely I think, included yourself in this generalization does not remove the insulting nature of your post. How dare you imply that my opinion is (a) the same as every other American's, ( a gut reaction and © a vague impression devoid of any appreciation of beauty? You also seem to suggest that "commonality" is needed in a list of bests/favorites. I happen to enjoy very disparate things, and have a relatively broad taste in music, art and cars. You would be hard pressed to find significant commonality in my list of favorite songs, for example. You also argue symmetry, balance and proportion are required for beauty, and while I might agree generally, I would not argue there are no exceptions. That said, I agree with you wholeheartedly that what are routinely called "best/most" lists should more accurately be called "favorites" lists, but this is not a case of being lazy with word choice. This writer is trying to grab attention with a title in as few words as possible, and also plant a seed for discussion. That's what writers do. Few might care what that person's favorites are, but many people will be intrigued by the argumentative word "best/most" to take a look. I looked. You looked. Bingo. Traffic to the website. The writer is not concerned with whether people agree, but with driving traffic to the site. More discussion/disagreement means more traffic, and that means mission accomplished (and job security in many cases). Readers can either dismiss the list entirely, learn something or perhaps enlighten others with their opinions to further the debate. If, as you seem to think, all Americans need to be better educated about which cars are beautiful, then you have missed the whole point of the list to generate discussion, debate and ultimately education. I look at forums that discuss bests/favorites as being a fun way to see what other people think are beautiful cars, principally because I am still exploring 128 years of automotive design. I agree with you and, I believe, everyone else on this forum that this particular list isn't very good, but look what a lively discussion it generated. Maybe when you get through looking down your nose you'll share your list of favorites to enlighten us all. I look forward to it since your implication is that you are better "equipped to make a broad statement about the relative beauty of cars." I, on the other hand, do not make any such self-aggrandizing argument and have merely listed my favorites, knowing full well that entire automotive classes are not included in my favorites, despite their symmetry, balance and proportion. In particular, my list does not entertain the notion of relative performance but is merely my opinion of beauty from among the cars I am familiar with. I hope my list will result in others adding their lists so that I will learn about additional beautiful cars. After all, my list is not static -- it changes the more "best" lists I read that expand my knowledge! Thus endeth my soapbox sermon for today. More lists! :cool:

I went to a Sotheby's auction of Eric Clapton's guitars in New York in about 1998 with a reasonable amount of money to spend. After a half dozen lots sold for ridiculous sums, I just sat back and laughed. There was a guy sitting in front of me (wearing a scarf -- it was summer time -- 'nuff said) and he paid several thousand dollars for a spangly guitar strap made by Versace or such. Later a similar strap came up and I heard him tell the man next to him, "Well, I bought the other one; I guess I should buy this one, too." That was his motivation. Price no object. I like going to the RM/Gooding/Bonham's auctions in Monterey. Great fun, and no stress since there is no danger I'm going to bid!

I couldn't get the list down under 30. In no particular order other than that Teardrop Coupe and Delahaye 165 absolutely being the most beautiful of all time (just my opinion, of course). 1937 Talbot-Lago T150C SS Teardrop Coupe 1947 Delahaye 165 V12 1936 Delahaye 135 Competition Court Coupe 1949 Delahaye 175 Saoutchik 1937 Delahaye 135-M Cabriolet 1932 Bugatti Type 50 1929 Bugatti Type 41 Royale Coupe de Ville 1931 Bugatti Type 41 Royale Cabrio Weinberger 1939 Bugatti Type 57C Atalante 1938 Alfa Romeo 8C 2900B 2011 Visualtech Growler E (to be produced as Lyonheart E) 1936 Mercedes-Benz 540K Spezial-Roadster (with covered spare) 1934 Mercedes-Benz 500K Coupe by VanVooren 1936 Mercedes-Benz 540K Spezial-Coupe by Sindelfingen 1935 Mercedes-Benz 500K Autobahn-Kurier 1932 Bucciali TAV 8 1931 Daimler Double Six 40/50 Sport Saloon 1964 Jaguar E-Type Coupe 1962 Ferrari 250GT California 1933 Auburn Boat Tail Speedster 1954 Jaguar XK 120 Coupe 2012 Aston Martin One 77 1931 Duesenberg Model J LWB Whittell Coupe 1932 Duesenberg Dual Cowl Phaeton 1933 Duesenberg Model J "Queen of Diamonds" 1933 Duesenberg SSJ 1939 Delage D8 120 Letourneur & Marchand 1938 Delage D8 120 Portout Aero Coupe 1933 Pierce-Arrow Silver Arrow 1930 Bentley Speed Six Coupe 1925 Rolls Royce Phantom I Jonckheere (round door)