1928 Liquid Fuel Guage Fluid

[Guest]

Anyone know what type of fluid to use in a fuel guage that uses a liquid to show the fuel level. This is on a 1928 Pontiac.<P>===JIM===

[Guest]

Are you certain that the guage is not filled with gasoline such as the Model A Ford is? I am not familiar with a different type, but that is not to say they don't exist. Great luck in getting a good answer.<P>Huey<p>[This message has been edited by coupe1942 (edited 11-05-2000).]

[Guest]

No gasoline here. The guage is built with an open top so the fuel would evaporate if there. The top has to be oepn for the fluid to be able to rise in the guages indicator thus the open top. The manual suggest a particular type liquid from a company that no longer exists. Still listenting.<P>===JIM===

[Guest]

If my memory is correct they were filled with a alchol-glicerin mixture similar to brake fluid,this was dyed red, to enable you to see it in the gauge tube.The system worked similar to a barometer,as the gas level raised or lowered, the pressure in the system caused the fluid level in the sight tube to rise or fall.

[Guest]

I believe Trainguy is correct. One of my buddies owned an old Lincoln that used liquid for the speedometer as well as other guages. They used a glycerin based fluid as the indicators. The fluid was fairly thick. I think your problem becomes where to get the proper mixture formula for the guage in question. I doubt the specific mix for the application is still produced.<P>Luck,<BR>EAS.

[Guest]

Trainguy is right on target, if my memory serves me well. The units I am most familiar with were King-Seeley (sp) with the sending unit in the gas tank. The problem I usually encountered was that the fluid tended to evaporate, I guess due to air leakes in the system, and I was left out-of-gas more than once. At one time the Antique Studebker Club had an article on how to fix these units and I am sure that there are several articles in way past issues of Skinned Knuckles.

[ply33]

I am the fellow that suggested Jimtleman post here (his original post was on a newsgroup).<P>I too recall an article on how to restore/repair this type of gauge in <span style="font-style: italic">Skinned Knuckles</span> magazine, but am unable to find it at the moment. My <span style="font-style: italic">Dyke's Automobile Encyclopedia</span> says that only K-S fluid should be used. That is of little use today.<P>I also vaguely recall hearing/reading that the fluid was basically glycerin with red coloring, but would not bet anything on the accuracy of my memory.<P>I was hoping Rick or Dan could help out here.

[ronbarn]

Skinned Knuckles definitely had an article and as I remember an alternative fluid recommendation. Will try to find it in the shop tomorrow and repost the date and make a copy for Jim.

[Guest]

Well I must say this a very eager group. Far more has been posted than I expected. Thanks guys for trying to help. I am realtively new to restoring but have always had an eye wanting to give it a try. Finally got the chance back in January this year. Have been really enjoying the work and have learned a great deal of patience, this fluid being no exception.<BR> I am afraid I am not familiar with Skinned Knuckes. Is this a pub that I should be getting?<P>Thanks for your help<P>===JIM===

[D Binger]

I don't have a clue as to what king of fluid is used in the gauges. <BR>You could always go to Wal Mart and get a new paint stick and use that as a gas gauge.<P>Sorry Todd, but I don't know about the fluid - - I will not try to give advice about things I don't know about - - like other people do. <P>Wrong information is worse than no information.<P>Dan

[Guest]

Hey Dan. Don't scare off those of us who might possibly give some erroneous advice in an HONEST attempt to be helpful. What I do feel we should do however, is when we are just guessing or not quite sure of our information, state that fact in the post. Nobody is an authority on everything and we should not try to be all things to all subjects. But a little stupidity can enhance the learning process, at least it works that way for me. hvs

[Guest]

Dan, I already tried the paint stick approach, got a chrome cord and tied it all pretty around the tank cap to look original but the judges didnt give us much for it. Bawahaha and honestly that is what I do right now but thanks for letting us know <BR>

[ply33]

Found it! In the September 1990 issue of <a href="http://www.skinnedknuckles.com"><span style="font-style: italic">Skinned Knuckles</span></a> (reprinted from a 1976 article in the same magazine):<P>King-Seeley hydrostatic gas gauges were used from 1927 to 1935 on various makes of cars (including the early V-8 Ford).<P>The fluid is acetylene tetrabromide (1,1,2,2-tetrabromoethane) which is very dense. About four times as dense as gasoline. This means that a 4 inch head of gas in the tank will indicate with a 1 inch column of fluid in the gauge.<P>The article says "We doubt that it is practical to buy this fluid from a chemical supplier as even in the minimum package quantity is is quite expensive, and then too, a dye must be added to make it red in color. Finding a color-fast dye may be quite a job."<P>At the time of the original article, it was said that "nearly any obsolete Ford parts supplier who sells parts and accessories for the early Ford V-8's" should carry King-Seeley repair kits that include the fluid. I don't have a Ford and so don't have any Ford V-8 supplier catalogs. Anyone know if they still carry this stuff?

[Rick Hoover]

Tod,<BR>Yes, you can buy it from various suppliers. I'd call Mac's Antique Auto Parts in Lockport NY. at 1-800-828-7948. The part number for the rebuild kit is V9289 and the fluid alone is Number V9280.<BR>That's great information Tod, as all I knew was that those units were and still are a pain to keep working. I'm running low, but normally stock the fluid here. I found some years ago at a old Ford garage. They sold it in 1 oz. Ford labeled glass bottles marked Ford Fuel Gauge Indicator Liquid. <BR>If for some reason Mac's can't help, let me know.<BR>Rick<P>Dan, I understand!

[ronbarn]

I thought there was a more recent article and a recommended substitute fluid. Will continue the search.<P>Jim, Skinned Knuckles is a magazine devoted to the hobby of auto restoration. It is well written and full of good information. I "inherited" a subscription many years ago when I became the editor for our AACA region newsletter and have kept it up for at least 20 years. It is not a fancy publication. It's all black and white on cheap paper, but the editor, Bill Cannon and the writers are knowledgeable and yes, you might ought to subscribe for a year and see if you like it.

[Guest]

Thanks so much to those that contributed to this thread. Looks like it got quite a bit of attention. I really appreciate all the info and a solid answer. It was much more than I expected. And thanks to Todd for directing me to this group. I plan on staying tuned in.<P>===JIM===

[Guest rcirilli]

Sorry I read this so late. I have a 29 Pontiac with a K-S gauge. Unfortunately my gauge was broken and then fixed with liquid steel or something. At any rate a few years ago I bought the liquid from a Ford source and from my research it should have worked fine. Unfortunately for me I really need another gauge. The comments that have been made are correct in that it works through the pressure in the tank and the fluid is about four times heavier than gas or water. It must be put in with an eye dropper. If you need it I can copy the proceedure from my shop manual. Just let me know.<BR>

[Guest]

The fluid is readily available.just order it from any early Ford V8 parts supplier Mr Buick

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Boy! You learn something every day. I hope that the sources suggested on here have helped Jimtleman get his gauge working. I have been following this thread and must admit, I have gotten quite curious. I understand the principal of operation, but have never seen anything like this. Is there anything to keep the gasoline and gauge fluid from coming in contact? I assume there is not. What keeps the gauge fluid from running back into the tank when the tank is empty? What keeps the gauge fluid from sloshing out of the open tube? What make and year vehicles should I look for to see one of these things?

[ply33]

The most likely car to see that has this would be a 1935 or earlier Ford V8.<P>The dash unit is a U tube with one end open to the atmosphere and the other connected to a tube going to the tank. Enough fluid is put in the U to reach the "reserve" line on the gauge. (These units cannot measure the last inch or so of gas in the tank, so usually the bottom of the gauge read reserve rather than empty.)<P>When the tank was full, air in a trapped column was compressed. The head of the column had a tube that went to the dash gauge unit. The dash unit fluid would then rise to indicate the amount of fluid in the tank.<P>The amazing part was the tank unit. According to what I have read, it was designed to use the sloshing of gasoline to drive bubbles of air into the sending unit to replenish any lost to leakage.<P>Check out either the Skinned Knuckles article or the write up in Dyke's Automative Encyclopedia. Kind of neat stuff: A remote tank sender and dash unit that use no electricity.

[Guest]

EVERYBODY who own and works on EARLY cars should own a copy of Dyke's Automotive Encyclopedia. By early, I refer mostly to vehicles 50 years old and older.<P>These books can be found at flea markets and sometimes in the old book racks in antique shops, and are generally reasonably priced.<P>I purchased my last copy, which includes up to 1942, in an antique shop for $10.00 At those prices don't pass up additional copies when you come across them. They are of varying editions, and so cover up to different years. Get an early edition if you have brass era cars and a later edition for the 20's & 30's. hvs<P>PS: The later editions will still contain info. on the VERY early vehicles, but possibly just not as much. <p>[This message has been edited by hvs (edited 11-20-2000).]

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Howard,<P>Have been on the look out for one, but no luck yet. Will get one as soon as I can find it.<P>Tod,<P>Thanks for the info. I'd really like to see one of these things. I know a guy with a '34 Ford with V-8. The only problem is the V-8 is a Chevy 350. I'll be on the look out for one of those too.

[Guest]

I owned a 1931 Franklin that had a K-S gas gage, but also a engine oil level gage of the same type{neither worked}

[Guest]

As for Dyke's, I dearly cherish my own copy but I'm surprised that I haven't destroyed it in a fit of rage. Every time I need to look something up I curse the fact that there are not one, but TWO indexes, and usually have no bearing on the actual page the information is on!<BR>Dyke's is such a treasure trove of scarce information I'm surprised that it hasn't been republished with a complete and accurate index!<P>As for K-S gauge fluid, what we're looking for is a fluid that won't evaporate and has a specific gravity 4 times that of gasoline?<BR>Any chemists out there?

[Guest rcirilli]

Since I haven't found a copy of Dyke's either I just copied some of this discussion and added it to my Pontiac service manual. I knew how it worked but some of these comments really break it down and fill in the blanks.

[critterpainter]

Buick also used the king-seely system for a few years. As mentioned above the red fluid is easy to come by as is the tubing from the tank to the guage. <BR> The pot-metal mount and the guage face is being reprouced for Buick but I do not know about other makes.<BR> Bill

[Guest]

I have learned so much from this thread. This has been great. I did find the fluid as the supplier suggested had it and I now have it in my hands! I will be installing it soon. Thanks for the help.<P>===JIM===

[Guest]

FYI I found where you can usually find the Dyke's Encyclopedia's. If your interested Ebay seems to have several available. Looks like the prices run from $10.00 to $60.00. Thought that might be a help to those looking for em.<P>===JIM===

[Guest rcirilli]

I would be interested in knowing more about the repo's for Buicks. Some small body Buick items were used on Pontiacs.

[Guest c.johnson]

rc,<P>Please let me know if you find any parts that cross over to Pontiac/Oakland. I have a '22 Oakland that is really hard to find parts for.<P>Thanks,<BR>cj

[Guest]

Hello Everyone:<BR>I and VERY new to the older car hobbie, and have recently been blessed with a restored 35 Ford V8. I myself have been wondeing how to fix my broken gas gauge. I now have some very good insite. Thanks alot for all the great info.(Rob)

[ronbarn]

bluedragon, welcome to the hobby and the website. Hope you register and visit often. Father Ron

[Guest]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jimtleman:<BR><B>Anyone know what type of fluid to use in a fuel guage that uses a liquid to show the fuel level. This is on a 1928 Pontiac.<P>===JIM===</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have a 34 Ford with the same guage and the fluid, as many have suggested is avialable. It would be interesting to find out what the specific gravilty is as I use a fluid in some of my buisness instrumentation that is red and has a sp. gr. of .68, I suspect it may be a good substitute. It does not evaporate redily and is available at good comercial heating supply houses. When I get that far on my restoration I will find out. Good luck.<P>

[Guest]

I have a 34 Ford that has the same guage and as many have said the fluyid is redily available. It would be interesting to find out the specific gravity of the orriginal fluid as I use a similar red fluid in an test instrument which has a specific gravity of .68. I suspect it would be a good substitute and it is redily available at a good commercial heating supply house.

[Guest]

I have an 11th edition of Motors that describes the operation and service proceedure if anyone wants a copt of page 168 send me an e mail at meridian39@aol.com

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

TomK,<P>After doing some ROUGH calculations, it appears as if the fluid you are speaking of will not do the job. I calculate the specific gravity of gasoline to be ROUGHLY 0.72. Assuming the fuel gauge fluid to be 4 times as dense as gasoline, it's specific gravity would be 2.88.

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Well I did say ROUGH.

[Guest]

Thanks. After I posted my orriginal comment I got to thinking about that. I came to the conclusion I was incorrect. I tried to deleate my comments but I couldn't. I still offer the Motors Manual page to anyone interested. It does a nice job of describing it's operation but no mention of the fluid's spec's.

[ply33]

TomK ~~ I see you are unregistered. Just join the discussion forum. Registered members can edit and/or delete their own postings.<P>I sounds like you have alot to offer and we would like to hear more from you.<P>Tod<P>------------------<BR><A HREF="http://www.ply33.com" TARGET=_blank>Plymouth: The First Decade</A>

[ply33]

The web is a wonderful place. I just did a Google search on "acetylene tetrabromide" (the fluid used in the gas gauge). I found a site with a <a href="http://www.geoliquids.com/acetltetra.html">spec sheet</a> for the stuff. The specific gravity is given as 2.96 at 25°C.<P>The freezing point is given as 1°C, so I guess your gas gauge will not work until your (optional) heater gets the car interior up to freezing. Not a big bother for those of us in balmy (batty?) California, but for those who live in the north it could be a problem. <P>Follow the <a href="http://www.geoliquids.com/acetltetra.html">link</a> if you want to learn all the nitty gritty about this stuff.<P>The people at that web site will sell you it in lots starting at 5 lbs. (766ml) for $40/lb. Let's see, that is a $200 minimum order. And you would still have to add some dye to it....<P>------------------<BR><A HREF="http://www.ply33.com" TARGET=_blank>Plymouth: The First Decade</A><p>[This message has been edited by TodFitch (edited 12-07-2000).]