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63riviera

'63 Riviera 700R4 trans.

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Here's a website that you should check out for help in properly selecting and adjusting the TV cable on your transmission. www.tvmadeez.com

See if you don't agree with me that what they offer won't make your installation that much easier.

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$3250 for a rebuilt 700R4... heck, you can buy a running, going 67-71 Jeep Wagoneer with a TH400 that bolts to the nailhead for like a grand.. a 64-66 Buick flexplate with the center hole enlarged and a GM short tail 400 tail cover and you're in business. And you can sell the Jeep afterwards to a Jeep guy -

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HI all, just some thoughts:

$3250 was for the transmission, adapter and installation.

I would imagine that the electronic controller is for the torque converter clutch operation, not shifting.

The T.V. cable on a 700 or 4L60 controls line pressure and shift feel. Upshifting and downshifting are still controlled by the governor. The way it sounds, this car has either an issue with the torque converter or is making a second gear start.

I used to think that the Jeep THM 400 bolts up to the Nailhead, but after a salvage yard visit, I'm not sure. The Jeep bellhousing is shaped very similarly, but it looks to be deeper than the Nailhead THM 400. Has anyone done this swap and do you have pictures?

Thanks,

Tim

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GM sold the nailhead pattern TH400 as a universal-pattern trans to Jeep and several other carmakers in the late 1960s. The shorter bell on the case made it much easier to cast adapters to bolt to other motors (a-la the case design of the 1956-up dual coupling Hydramatic), including in some Jeeps an adapter to bolt it to a Buick 350 with standard BOP pattern. A guy on the HAMB posted the information there; we have a junk '69-ish Jeep with the trans I plan to rip out when it gets warmer and match up to a '58 364 -

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Hi Pontiac59,

There are currently both a Nailhead bellhousing THM 400 and a AMC bellhousing THM 400 over on ebay. Like I said, they look somewhat similar, but do be aware that there is an AMC case THM 400, and it won't fit on the back of a nailhead. Do you have pictures of the "universal" Nailhead bellhousing with the AMC adapter plate? I would really like to see it!

Thanks,

Tim

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On GM's non-electronic control automatic transmissions, torque converter lock-up activities are controlled by a vacuum switch (low vacuum unlocks the converter and I seem to recall a "high vacuum" switch to unlock it during closed throttle coast-down situations), which are in the converter clutch circuit prior to the brake light switch. For example, if the vehicle is on the straight and level road at sufficient speed to allow converter lockup to happen, when an incline is encountered that results (with the cruise control on, for example, to maintain a set cruising speed on the highway) in additional engine load and decreased manifold vacuum, the converter will unlock. If that does not decrease the engine's load enough, then a downshift into "D" (direct, or high gear) will result. When the load decreased on the other side of the incline, the trans will again upshift into "OD" and the vacuum switchs will let the converter lockup or whatever they let it do. The low vacuum switch also makes sure the converter is unlocked at WOT in OD (although a few valve bodies would keep the converter locked-up at WOT . . . Corvettes, Z-28s, genuine COPO police Impalas, diesel pickups).

While at a steady speed with the converter locked-up, a slight movement of the brake pedal (to turn on the stop light circuit, usually) will result in the converter unlocking until the brake pedal is released back to normal.

In other words, the circuit has to be "made" in all cases for the converter lockup solenoid to be energized and lock-up the converter electrically. Everything is "analog" rather than "computerized", in these non-electronic controlled transmissions. When the "E" was added to their nomanclature, they got electric solenoids inside the transmission, on the valve body, to make things happen in there. Still, some extra sensors and such, but everything was controlled by the ECM. On the crate transmissions that GM sells with electronic controls, there is a separate controller to run them.

Seems to be some mysteries on how this whole deal might work!

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

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NTX5467,

I do remember some of the GM Diesel's using a vacuum switch on the pump to regulate vacuum for things like EGR and other emission related items. Some early 80's vintage 350C, 250C and 200C used with non-ECM controlled engines used systems similar to what you described. All of the THM 700's use an electrical solenoid inside of the transmission case on the pump to control lock up. By the time the 700 came on line in 1982, all car and a good number of truck engines were ECM controlled, so it just made sense to give the ECM command of the TCC as it already knew things like engine RPM, throtle angle, vehicle speed and engine load. Along with the ECM, there was a brake switch wired in series with the TCC solenoid, so that any time the brake was applied, the electrical circuit to the TCC solenoid was opened up, unlocking the converter. There are also pressure switches inside of the transmission pan on the valve body that monitor clutch apply passages. The 700 uses 2nd gear oil pressure to activate the TCC regulated apply valve, so even if there is an electrical failure, the TCC will hydralically disengage when the transmission makes the 2-1 downshift. There was a pressure switch that was contolled by clutch pressure to the 3-4 clutch; that switch had to be closed for the TCC solenoid to receive voltage so the TCC would not apply in 2nd gear. The THM 125C (3T40) used line pressure for TCC apply; a TCC solenoid failure could cause the engine to stall if the TCC remained engaged when the vehicle came to a stop. Very bad design! Some of this stuff was so long ago I'm really dating myself to admit that I worked on them when they were new!

Take Care,

Tim

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Tim, when I did my comments, I'd forgotten about the pressure switches on the valve body that were the "first" switch to close in the circuit to let the converter clutch lock-up. In the earlier years, converter clutch lockup was set at a low mph, but by changing the switches on the valve body, the lockup speed could be raised enough that it didn't cause any real issues for the customers. There were lots of vehicles out there with "a skip at 45mph" that a tune-up or anything else could not fix . . . except a pressure switch with a higher rating. The "outside" transmission shops usually had a selection of pressure switches in stock.

Depending upon which vehicle/engine combination the transmission went behind could determine how and when the converter clutch lockup circuit would "make". In most of them, the converter clutch would not lockup until the trans got into 3rd or OD, but there were some Buick application THM350s that would lockup the converter upon the 1-2 upshift. Most of what I was involved with back then was on the Chevrolet side of things, but there were also Buicks in the mix too.

I also recall selling many of the TCC solenoids for the THM125s. That was an easy diagnosis and fix (like some of the other "common" problems on GM vehicles in that general timeframe). Not terribly expensive to fix, either, compared to some other things.

The vacuum switch on the Stanadyne diesel pumps was to vary vacuum to the transmission's vacuum modulator valve, which modulated vacuum generated by the vacuum pump that went in the same place as a distributor would on a gasoline motor, in the engine block. The same vacuum source was also used for other things on the vehicle (i.e., hvac vac-operated valves, EGR vac). At least for transmissions that had a vac modulator valve in the first place.

In that same timeframe, the Olds 307 (5.0L) V-8 also had a belt-driven vacuum pump that was a "booster pump" to run the hvac items and probably other things. Remember that this was also during the time of the famous "PowerMaster" brake booster? A good design, in concept, but was a little too "different" for many people and mechanics to deal with--one of the first power assist units that didn't require engine power to run directly, if that matters.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

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NTX5467,

I was at Olds and Cadillac dealers in the 80's and ran accross many of the same things. The 307 Olds engine seemed to only have the belt driven vacuum pump if it was equipped with the THM 2004R, 350C and 200C transmission equipped 307 didn't get them. I don't think Cadillac and Olds did use the 350C behind the 5.7 diesel, they used 200's, 200C's and then 2004R's so there was no vacuum modulator to deal with. You Chevy guys got some 250C's or 350C's in the 1/2 ton pick ups with the diesel, although I think that the early pick ups (1979?)were limited to the 200! It is amazing to watch the transmission technology changes in Hydramatic today when you look back on some of the early TCC systems and Over Drive transmission attempts. Boy, talk about hi-jacking some elses post!

Take Care,

Tim

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This is an old thread, but personally, I like the 63 BECAUSE of the Dynaflow. It's way cool. If you don't like it, I guess you could get a 64 or 65....

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It sounds like the stall converter is to high of an rpm rating. (stall speed) If memory serves me, most factory torque converter stall speeds are around 1400 rpm. Who is "everybody" that wants the torque converter that he thought was appropriate and what kind of cars do they drive. If they are hot rods with hot cams, then you got the wrong converter for a stock Riv.

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By the way, for those of you who did the 700R4 conversion, what shifter/cable combination did you use? Does it allow you to retain the console? I am considering installing a Lokar shifter, but worry about the interference with the cable...

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Ue a stock 65 shifter with amodified rod and go with a stage1 200 4R transmission. I have done the conversion twice now and it is a nice fit as well as function.

Use the EELCO adapter for a cleaner install. (shameless plug :))

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For the 200-4R conversion that I'm working on for my '64, I'm using a shifter from an '84 Monte Carlo SS. The SS came from the factory with the 200-4R. The diameter of both the OE Riviera shifter and the Monte Carlo shifter are the same diameter. They both incorporate a "push to release" mechanism for the reverse lock-out. Some simple modifications to the shifter rod and you can put the Monte Carlo shifter inside the Riv's console. The nice thing about it is that it's a cable shifter and the geometry is correct for having the trans in gear with the shifter lever in the proper location on the quadrant. The only thing that's necessary to modify is the neutral safety switch.

Ed

PS - I'm using one of Eelco's adapters. An article I wrote on this swap was published in the Riview last year. In it, I explain why I (along with others) chose the 200-4R over the 700-R4. There are a number of pictures of the installation as was done by Dave Gee on his '65.

Edited by RivNut (see edit history)

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Ed,

Let us know how that swap works out for you! Having taught the 700R4, 4L60-E, 4L80-E, Allison and the new 6 speed automatics for GM, transmission choice is really going to be based on what you are looking for.

Things like clearance, intended use, vehicle weight and budget all enter in. Parts availablity is important, too. The 4L60 family of transmissions is still being built by GM, nearly 2 decades after the last 200 4R was built. In a heavy vehicle like the Riviera, there is no downside to a 3.06 to 1 first gear ratio to get the car moving!

Most transmission techs are familar with the 700R4/4L60 transmissions but the guys who know the 200 4R is not a number that is increasing and will likely decrease in the near future. I would always go for the latest technology I could when modifing a vintage car, it just makes sense to modify it with something that is not also obsolete!

Tim

Edited by tim63riv (see edit history)

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For the 200-4R conversion that I'm working on for my '64, I'm using a shifter from an '84 Monte Carlo SS. The SS came from the factory with the 200-4R. The diameter of both the OE Riviera shifter and the Monte Carlo shifter are the same diameter. They both incorporate a "push to release" mechanism for the reverse lock-out. Some simple modifications to the shifter rod and you can put the Monte Carlo shifter inside the Riv's console. The nice thing about it is that it's a cable shifter and the geometry is correct for having the trans in gear with the shifter lever in the proper location on the quadrant. The only thing that's necessary to modify is the neutral safety switch.

Ed

PS - I'm using one of Eelco's adapters. An article I wrote on this swap was published in the Riview last year. In it, I explain why I (along with others) chose the 200-4R over the 700-R4. There are a number of pictures of the installation as was done by Dave Gee on his '65.

Ed,

Having owned several Monte Carlo SS I m pretty sure the 84 only came with a th350C. Are the detents the same between this and the 200-4r tranny shifter?

Chris

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Chris,

I could be wrong about the year. I do know that the car from which the shifter was pulled had an O/D indicator on the shifter quadrant. I've also talked to Herb at Shiftworks about modifying an OE 63 or 64 or 65 shifter (which ever I can find cheaply enough to send to him and let him look at it) that will shift the 200-4R with a cable rather than a rod. I've seen one he did that was used in a Wildcat.

Tim,

I chose the 200-4R after talking to an ROA member at the 2005 meet. He had a 700-R4 in his '63 and he told me about a few problems he encountered with fitting the larger 700-R4 case and adapter in the X-frame. The speedometer cable had a kink in it that made the speedometer flucuate and he had to massage the floor pan a little. The stock transmisson crossmember needs a small modification to bolt to the 200-4R; the placement of the 700-4R's mounting holes require fabrication of a new crossmember. I also wanted to stay away from any of the newer electronic transmissions. Besides that, I swapped some stuff I no longer needed for the 200-4R so the price was unbeatable. It came from an Olds Cutlass that had the 5.0 litger V-8 in it. I'll be upgrading it enough to handle the torque of the nailhead.

Here are a couple of pictures of the 200-4R that Dave has in his '65 Riv iera. Nice fit.

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Chris,

you're correct. The 84 Monte Carlo SS only ever came with the TH350, and the 305 CID engine. Many years ago I put a 700R4 in my SS but it didn't hold up against a 454. I tried it twice and considered it a costly education lesson. That was with the early style 700R4. I've heard they made a lot of improvements since then.

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Checker,

The 700 got much better and by 88 was very strong and trouble free. The 88 through 92 are all non electronic shift, they only need a method to lock up the torque converter clutch, which is electrically controlled.

Tim

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RivNut do you have any more pict of this conversion. Or anymore insight. Particuly the shifter an linkage details. Thanks

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The pictures I posted are of Dave Gee's installation. He has more on his facebook page. I'm not to the point of istalling the shifter yet, but if you're having problems you can always revert to using a cable unit from someone like Lokar or Shiftworks.

Ed

PS - Typo in my original post about the 200-4R, the shifter came from an '85 Monte Carlo SS. That's what I get for trying to touch type numbers.

Edited by RivNut (see edit history)

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RivNut do oyu have anymore pict of the conversion? Tn particular the crossmember mods and the shifter mods. Thanks in advance

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As I said in post #49, the pictures are of Dave Gee's car and can be seen on his facebook page. He shows how he modified the crossmember to accept the 200-4R. Neither one of us is to the point of installing a shifter yet. If you're unsure of what mods to make to an existing shifter then go with an after market unit from Lokar or Shiftworks.

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