1974 Pace Car

[Rocketman]

Anybody notice that a 74 pace car was auctioned off in Boca Raton a few weeks ago? Is this the same car from the Carolinas that belonged to Mr. Bush or possibly another one ? Anyone have any info on who may have bought it?

[rocketraider]

I can about guarantee it isn't Rooster's car. Legal issues with GM would prevent its sale, though I wouldn't put it past his DA son to try.

[mike88]

This one?

[Steve Moskowitz]

Wow, I did not know there was another one out there in private hands. Glenn, I know the story behind Rooster getting the car. It was done at a time that legal issues were not followed all that much. The car was sold to him as just a plain 'ol Cutlass Supreme! I recall Rooster telling me the story at a Olds meeting years ago.

I need to look the auction results up to see if it was a real pace car or a parade car. $80,250!! However, there is no other description

[rocketraider]

There's something screwy with that pic Mike posted. Decals are WAAAAAY off from the 1974 stuff. My guess is somebody cut the roof off an S and made a Pace Car replica. I'd want to see the data plate and nose.

Steve, Bob Brannan had told me Rooster had to go thru the legalese on the Pace Car deal as it was a modified vehicle and couldn't be warranted. I've never talked in depth about it with Rooster himself. Bob owned my Pace Car replica for a while and helped me track it down. I need to get the interior and weatherstrip back in it. 60 hr work weeks and Mama's bad health kept me from doing anything with it the past year. Literally nothing has been done to the car in over a year. Even the Toronado has not been cranked since before Thanksgiving. I sometimes wonder why I don't sell 'em all and just get out of the hobby, no more time than I can devote to them.

[mike88]

rocketraider, is the e-mail you have in your listing still good? If so I will forward the mail from Angelo Valenti, c/o hurst/olds forums, with more pics of the car to you. Considering that this is a one of one car,(proto-type) maybe the decals are off from the factory. Knowing Angelo's reputation, I would believe that this is the real deal. From what I understand, this was the backup pacecar, but still an original pacecar.

[Aanderson44]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">rocketraider, is the e-mail you have in your listing still good? If so I will forward the mail from Angelo Valenti, c/o hurst/olds forums, with more pics of the car to you. Considering that this is a one of one car,(proto-type) maybe the decals are off from the factory. Knowing Angelo's reputation, I would believe that this is the real deal. From what I understand, this was the backup pacecar, but still an original pacecar. </div></div>

Quite possibly it is the real deal. One of the things that Indianapolis Motor Speedway did, during the years of the "tire war" between Goodyear and Firestone (1974 was the last year of that--Firestone pulled out of Indy Car racing at the end of that season, for several years) was to have two pace cars, one on Goodyear tires, the other up on Firestones. The practice was, to pace the start of the race with the pace car having the same tires as the pole car, then the victory lap around the track after Victory Lane, with the pace car wearing the same brand of rubber as the winner's car.

Starting in, I believe, 1964, Indianapolis Motor Speedway gained the right to retain the actual pace car every year, for inclusion in their Hall of Fame Museum collection. In 1974, the pole car and the winning car (Johnny Rutherford's McLaren M16D/turbo Offenhauser) both ran on Goodyear tires, so the Firestone-equipped Pace Car saw no action on Race Day.

Art

[rocketraider]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">rocketraider, is the e-mail you have in your listing still good? If so I will forward the mail from Angelo Valenti, c/o hurst/olds forums, with more pics of the car to you. Considering that this is a one of one car,(proto-type) maybe the decals are off from the factory. Knowing Angelo's reputation, I would believe that this is the real deal. From what I understand, this was the backup pacecar, but still an original pacecar. </div></div>

Yes, it is. That would be an interesting read, but again there's got to be documentation. I knew Angelo had researched Darth Vader, just never knew he'd gone into the 70s cars in any depth.

You know, I realised a couple of weeks ago that I didn't renew my H/OCA membership last year either. Maybe this year will be different- 'course now I'm in the middle of trying to settle an estate while still putting in 60 hours a week. 50 years old, thought things were supposed to slow down a little bit <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[Rocketman]

If I remember correctly, there was a "photo op" car mocked up for the press photos. If you look close you can see that it is nothing like the original pace car (roll bar is much more narrow, single exhaust ect.). Someone told me that it was so unstable that they would only push it around.

I also remember that Olds did build 2 pace cars, but as far as I knew, it was understood that the second car was destroyed shortly after the race. The auction ad in Hemmings listed the car as 1 of 3 !!! Now I'm really confused

Anyone know what the real story is and where or who I could look to for info or pix?

[Aanderson44]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I remember correctly, there was a "photo op" car mocked up for the press photos. If you look close you can see that it is nothing like the original pace car (roll bar is much more narrow, single exhaust ect.). Someone told me that it was so unstable that they would only push it around.

I also remember that Olds did build 2 pace cars, but as far as I knew, it was understood that the second car was destroyed shortly after the race. The auction ad in Hemmings listed the car as 1 of 3 !!! Now I'm really confused

Anyone know what the real story is and where or who I could look to for info or pix? </div></div>

Try contacting Donald Davidson, who, after years of doing his racing historian thing for USAC, is now the Official Historian for Indianapolis Motor Speedway. Properly approached, I'll bet Donald can come up with the information.

I somehow doubt that a "photo op" pace car was built, however--it really wouldn't have been necessary. With two actual pace cars already on the property, the pattern was, rotate the cars a couple of times a day, so that Firestone and Goodyear each got pretty much equal exposure, there being the pace car in the pit area, at the start-finish line whenever 500 mile race practice is going on (used for track inspections, and to take the Chief Steward to any crash scene) The other one was on display in the open-air lobby of the Pace Car Room, underneath the Tower Terrace (infield grandstand behind the pits, in front of the Master Control Tower) which is ajacent to the entrance to Gasoline alley. There the car could be photographed, and on occasion, some dignitary got his picture taken with it (this also happened out on the track on on pit lane, during breaks in the action, or prior to the 10am opening of the Speedway for practice).

As for this "second pace car" which is the topic of this thread, it is quite possible that GM sold, or donated it for museum display purposes. As I recall, after 1973, generally the pace car was not even close to street legal, having no emissions control systems in place, precluding GM's selling the car to just anyone. The only street legal Pace Car used in the years '73 to '80 was the 1978 Corvette, the black and silver one, which has its full emissions package (it was more than capable of reaching the needed speeds, and had the acceleration to do the job, with no modifications).

GM did sell off at least one "spare" Pace Car, that being the extra 1967 Camaro. It was purchased from GM by none other than Dan Young, owner of Dan Young Chevrolet, in the early 1970's, and displayed by him for years at his dealership in downtown Indy. This car, as with the one owned by the Speedway Museum, is equipped with the unique grab handles and other safety gear not seen on the street replica pace cars sold through dealerships, and as used for publicity at the Speedway that year, and around Indianapolis.

Of course, this Olds came about before the day of strobe lights inserted into turnsignal and brake light lenses, and the yellow safety flashers mounted in various ways on the car. 1974 was the first year of the short-lived "Pacer" safety light system on the track, which flashed a series of numbers, sequenced around the Speedway at a set 90mph, so that all a driver had to do was to keep the same digit in lights in his vision as he passed it all the way around, to maintain the legal speed under yellow light cautions. It wasn't successful, so for 1982, USAC and IMS went to the "bunch up" rule, wherein under the yellow, the Pace Car went out, yellow lights on, picking up the lead car, the rest of the field tucking in behind, in single file, until the green flag restart, the idea borrowed from Nascar. By contrast, the '74 Cutlass Pace Car had just two duties on race day: Pace the parade and pace laps, lead the field to the starting line; and then give the winning crew a victory ride around the track, after the Victory Lane ceremonies. Had there been a rain delay, it would have joined the official trucks in drying the track, and then lead a green flag start following the red flag suspension of racing. So, the only safety indicators it had were a pair of yellow flags, mounted in flag stanchions on the rear bumper.

Art

[mike88]

http://www.freewebs.com/fe3xconcepts/ You guys make your own decision. It definitely isn't a photo-op mock up.

[Rocketman]

Thanks Mike, those are some great pix

Art I hear what you're saying about already having 2 cars on hand, but I seem to remember someone telling me the photos for the sales brochure and press kits were taken much earlier - maybe even in the fall - and the car used was not built up for actual use. If you look close at those pix the car has a different exhaust system. The car in the press photos has Goodyear Polyglass GT H70-15 tires, track photos of the cars show them with Goodyear GT Radials. The 2 real pace cars should have some date codes on some of the components (i.e. rear end). That could at least give us an idea of when they were built.

The ad for the recent auction said "one of three". That earlier car may be the one that was destroyed.

[Aanderson44]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Mike, those are some great pix

Art I hear what you're saying about already having 2 cars on hand, but I seem to remember someone telling me the photos for the sales brochure and press kits were taken much earlier - maybe even in the fall - and the car used was not built up for actual use. If you look close at those pix the car has a different exhaust system. The car in the press photos has Goodyear Polyglass GT H70-15 tires, track photos of the cars show them with Goodyear GT Radials. The 2 real pace cars should have some date codes on some of the components (i.e. rear end). That could at least give us an idea of when they were built.

The ad for the recent auction said "one of three". That earlier car may be the one that was destroyed. </div></div>

Dating publicity photo's taken of such as the Pace Car at Imdianapolis can be difficult, even by looking at the background, to get some idea, from the trees that once dotted the infield, including the Pace Car Field, which was on the North Side of the old Gasoline Alley Garage Area. The trees in the infield back then were, for the most part, oaks, and on May 1st, they are just barely starting to leaf out, sometimes not quite even that. Generally, back then, the actual Pace Car(s) would get lined up on either the front straightaway or on Pit Road, along with 33 additional "official cars", which in '74 (and I think memory is serving me correctly here) most of the official cars (those loaned to Tony Hulman Jr., the Speedway staff, and USAC officials for the month of May) were full-sized Oldsmobiles as opposed to being all Cutlasses. This presentation usually took place in the last week or so of April.

I have a couple of books on the Pace Cars of The Indianapolis 500 Mile Race, and they both make mention of one car for each brand of race tires to be used in a particular year, but no mention is made of any third car, for photo-ops. Also, 1974 was well before the institution of multiple Pace Cars for the Parade Laps--that didn't start until the Tony George era at Indy.

I was at the Speedway for opening day, May 4, 1978. It was humid, almost rained several times, but it had been chilly enough the week previous to have slowed the leafing out of trees in a state park west of Indianapolis, where I'd spent Thursday and Friday at a business conference. So, any pics taken that day, particularly the commonly shot black & white pics so prevalent still, would have shown relatively little difference than a day in March. I saw just two Official Pace Cars that day--one in the pits, the other in the Pace Car Room underneath the Tower Terrace--no third car was in evidence at the time. Going back to the Speedway on Pole Day, a week later, still only 2 Official Pace Cars, no third car. If there was a third car, it must have been pretty well hidden.

As for the tires in use then, I was under the impression all these years that Goodyear GT Radials, the tires having "outline" lettering on them, as opposed to solid white letters, made their debut with the 1978 25th Anniversary Corvette, but I could be wrong. Was there an earlier GT Radial from Goodyear? Also, in those days, Goodyear and Firestone both conducted serious promotional campaigns regarding the tires used on the Pace Car, in the event their race tires were on the pole-winning car, thus making the pace car with that brand of tires the one and only true Pace Car. The actual Pace Car has remained with the Indianapolis Motor Speedway since the new Mustang convertible paced the 500 in 1964, any backup Pacer returned to the factory.

Much was made, in 1973, of the Cadillac Eldorado Pace Car, regarding its having been the first Pace Car that was NOT legal for the street, having no emissions controls or catalytic converters installed on it. The official word at the time was that the actual Pace Car, of course would be donated to the Speedway Museum, but that the other one would have to be scrapped, or otherwise turned into a museum piece, as it could not legally be sold. How true that was in result, I do not know.

Art

[mike88]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Mike, those are some great pix

Art I hear what you're saying about already having 2 cars on hand, but I seem to remember someone telling me the photos for the sales brochure and press kits were taken much earlier - maybe even in the fall - and the car used was not built up for actual use. If you look close at those pix the car has a different exhaust system. The car in the press photos has Goodyear Polyglass GT H70-15 tires, track photos of the cars show them with Goodyear GT Radials. The 2 real pace cars should have some date codes on some of the components (i.e. rear end). That could at least give us an idea of when they were built.

The ad for the recent auction said "one of three". That earlier car may be the one that was destroyed. </div></div>

Dating publicity photo's taken of such as the Pace Car at Imdianapolis can be difficult, even by looking at the background, to get some idea, from the trees that once dotted the infield, including the Pace Car Field, which was on the North Side of the old Gasoline Alley Garage Area. The trees in the infield back then were, for the most part, oaks, and on May 1st, they are just barely starting to leaf out, sometimes not quite even that. Generally, back then, the actual Pace Car(s) would get lined up on either the front straightaway or on Pit Road, along with 33 additional "official cars", which in '74 (and I think memory is serving me correctly here) most of the official cars (those loaned to Tony Hulman Jr., the Speedway staff, and USAC officials for the month of May) were full-sized Oldsmobiles as opposed to being all Cutlasses. This presentation usually took place in the last week or so of April.

I have a couple of books on the Pace Cars of The Indianapolis 500 Mile Race, and they both make mention of one car for each brand of race tires to be used in a particular year, but no mention is made of any third car, for photo-ops. Also, 1974 was well before the institution of multiple Pace Cars for the Parade Laps--that didn't start until the Tony George era at Indy.

I was at the Speedway for opening day, May 4, 1978. It was humid, almost rained several times, but it had been chilly enough the week previous to have slowed the leafing out of trees in a state park west of Indianapolis, where I'd spent Thursday and Friday at a business conference. So, any pics taken that day, particularly the commonly shot black & white pics so prevalent still, would have shown relatively little difference than a day in March. I saw just two Official Pace Cars that day--one in the pits, the other in the Pace Car Room underneath the Tower Terrace--no third car was in evidence at the time. Going back to the Speedway on Pole Day, a week later, still only 2 Official Pace Cars, no third car. If there was a third car, it must have been pretty well hidden.

As for the tires in use then, I was under the impression all these years that Goodyear GT Radials, the tires having "outline" lettering on them, as opposed to solid white letters, made their debut with the 1978 25th Anniversary Corvette, but I could be wrong. Was there an earlier GT Radial from Goodyear? Also, in those days, Goodyear and Firestone both conducted serious promotional campaigns regarding the tires used on the Pace Car, in the event their race tires were on the pole-winning car, thus making the pace car with that brand of tires the one and only true Pace Car. The actual Pace Car has remained with the Indianapolis Motor Speedway since the new Mustang convertible paced the 500 in 1964, any backup Pacer returned to the factory.

Much was made, in 1973, of the Cadillac Eldorado Pace Car, regarding its having been the first Pace Car that was NOT legal for the street, having no emissions controls or catalytic converters installed on it. The official word at the time was that the actual Pace Car, of course would be donated to the Speedway Museum, but that the other one would have to be scrapped, or otherwise turned into a museum piece, as it could not legally be sold. How true that was in result, I do not know.

Art </div></div>Her is a pic of the '77 pacecar delta 88, can't really tell from this pic, but I believe it used "outlined tires. Not sure of the model, but I'm pretty sure they were GoodYears. Someone correct me if I'm wrong

[Hal Pope]

Did Rooster Bush  buy the 1974 Indy 500 pace car #1?