Recreate Old GM Divisions

[Guest sintid58]

Isnt the Prius the one with the small gas engine that runs on electric motors. Sounds a lot like diesel electric railroad engines. How many years have they been around, and when you get right down to it electric cars have been around since nearly the turn of the century

[55PackardGuy]

I think the diesel-electric locomotives are a bit of a different deal. As I understand it, the diesel engines generate the electricity, but the traction motors are electric. Not really a "hybrid" in the sense of using some power from the diesel engine and some from the electric motor(s) to drive the wheels. I've often kind of wondered about what kind of efficiency they get that way.

One thing for sure, they get a ton of torque at low speeds using electric drive motors. The specs on the little Prius electric motor is 295 ft. lbs. from 0-1200 rpm. A perfectly flat torque "curve" from the moment power is applied.

For now, the hybrid is all about economy and emissions, but I doubt it will be long before the horsepower wars start. Obviously, Toyota thought of that in their second generation Prius, which leaves Honda's hybrids in the dust.

I think hybrids will become more common, and in a few years rather than arguing whether they have merit versus conventionally powered cars, we'll be arguing about how well GM's, Ford's, Chrysler's and "import" hybrids stack up against each other.

The technology so far seems to be pretty solid. Looking in AutoTrader at some used Prius models, there were a number of 100K plus mile ones. Toyota also warantees all "hybrid-related" drivetrain components for 8 years/100,000 miles. If that's an honest warantee, it would cover motors, electronics, power-generating brakes, batteries etc.

A Prius or other compact-car hybrid wouldn't meet my needs, but I would consider a larger hybrid vehicle. I'd love to have a 4wd pickup that got 30 mpg! The Ford Escape is getting close to what I'd like with the 2.3 liter hybrid model. Unfortunately it only has a towing capability of 1000 lbs. The thing with that vehicle is, you can't tell it's a hybrid unless you look for the badge. It looks like any other Escape. That might be the way that U.S. manufacturers will approach hybrids--as an option on a vehicle that's also availabe with conventional power.

Hybrids might continue to serve a niche market, but with so many manufacturers planning to introduce them, I think they're likely to become mainstream.

[NTX5467]

Well, as your Prius appears to have "active arming" capabilities -- as the Corvette has had for several years not -- then you'd better NOT lose whatever it is that "transponds" with the vehicle. At least, on the Corvette and XLR there is a secret button to push to get into the car.

I do find it interesting at how much technology might be in the "content" of the Prius Dave has. I am also aware that many of these vehicles were built at a "factory cost loss" just to be able to sell them at a reasonably competitive price to get people to buy them. I wonder how many would have been sold if they did not have all of the "upscale" equipment included in them????? If they'd been equipped like a base Corolla, rather than as Dave mentions, would they have sold as many????

On the same orientation, if GM had sold something of that nature and lost money on each one they built (shades of EV1!!??), do you reckon the Wall Street People would not have been harping on them to "STOP ITT!!!"????

BTW, the current Corolla has a EPA highway rating of 38mpg, with the new Nissan Versa supposedly being 43mpg. But they still won't tow much behind them either (towing, just as a/c on the Prius, will decrease fuel economy too).

Now, as there have been Dodge and GM full size pickups that can run electrical tools from their electrical systems (for a few years now, in fleet/military configuration), does the Prius have such capabilities (with an appropriate intermediate transformer to step-down the 200V system)???? Where's Tim The Toolman??? That voltage would really make a Dremel tool sing!

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I am also aware that many of these vehicles were built at a "factory cost loss" just to be able to sell them at a reasonably competitive price to get people to buy them. </div></div>

NTX, I also recall the Japanese did the same with the Lexus & Infinity to sell in our market........I guess after all these years it paid off for them.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I am also aware that many of these vehicles were built at a "factory cost loss" just to be able to sell them at a reasonably competitive price to get people to buy them. </div></div>

Everybody seems to have stopped reading-up on new technology in 1996.

Toyota made back all of their development costs on the Prius <span style="font-style: italic">profit margin</span> (they were never sold at a manufacturing loss) in 2003, before the current edition was even released. They're making a <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">fortune</span></span> off of the car's sales now!

It should've been GM's fortune.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> For now, the hybrid is all about economy and emissions, but I doubt it will be long before the horsepower wars start. Obviously, Toyota thought of that in their second generation Prius, which leaves Honda's hybrids in the dust. </div></div>

Not the Honda Accord Hybrid. 0-60 in 7.0 sec., 15.5 sec. 1/4 mile, 30+ mpg overall in the real world. More to come.

If towing is an issue it's unlikely that a Hybrid will ever be an option. The high speed torque of the electric motors is of little help (although they will provide some boost, as evidenced in the marginally improved highway numbers of hybidized stock engines like Ford's 2.3L), so in effect it becomes a gas or diesel-only engine (especially on high-speed grades). Biodiesel and E-85 fueled trucks will likely be the future of towing.

[Gene Brink]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or is a brain chip implanted in the owner, the same one that causes the owner to subscribe to CR and to respond to the yearly CR survey that their Japanese car is the greatest thing since sliced bread? </div></div>

Enough already. You can't have it both ways... <span style="font-style: italic">CU subscribers are a bunch of brain-washed Japanese loving...</span> Has anyone wondered why CU subscribers that respond for Buick, Ford, etc. do not rave about their cars like the folks owning Japanese cars? Really - same "gene pool" so there must be <span style="font-style: italic">something </span> to the possibility that some cars are indeed more reliable than others. Yes, CU's annual survey has it's flaws - CU buyers are highly educated (not in and of itself a bad thing, of course, but not representative of "Joe average"), not a purely random group, etc... BUT the numbers are large enough to eliminate most anomalies that would be possible with a smaller data set. One can certainly argue about the validity of what and how they test but I don't think anything they do should be tossed out - perhaps just weighted differently. They do an excellent job of testing in a standardized manner and it does seem to me that they attempt to eliminate bias (not entirely possible). Does that mean one should blindly accept what they say? NO. Does it mean one should ignore what they say? NO - that would not be a smart thing to do and as Dave has said over and over and over - Buick has done pretty well in CU's survey over the last few years -- something that agrees with what I've observed with cars owned by people I know.

[NTX5467]

Dave, the performance figures you quote seem suspiciously close to what I've seen Car and Driver and Motor Trend quote for a normal 1998 era Buick Regal with the Buick 3800 V-6! The 1/4 mile ET might be a tad slower in the Buick (as in 1/10s of a second) and similar with the 0-60mpg time. I DO know that the real world cuise economy of a 2004 Buick LeSabre (according to the onboard trip computer . . . your Hybrid got one of those?? we haven't talked about that luxury item on it . . . with the a/c ON) is above 30mpg at 65mph, which I HAVE observed myself.

So, Dave, using your quoted figures and comparing them to many years of road tests of Buick Regals with Buick 3800 V-6s, plus the mpg I've observed myself in the 2004 LeSabre . . . just WHAT is the real, "real world" advantage to a Honda Hybrid in the first place? You pay more for it, comparatively speaking compared to other similar brand vehicles. You don't really know what it'll be worth next year. It's small, generally, with limited passenger seating spaces and smallish luggage compartments too. You have to be, seemingly, into a group of other owners in order to network for used parts--similar in concept to what we have been doing for 40+ year old cars, but the hybrids are "new" vehicles (much newer!).

So, using your figures, Dave, it appears that many of us in here are pretty intelligent for choosing Buicks with the Buick 3800 V-6 in it! And, to mention a Toyota "tag line" of the 1980s, those Buicks are "Cheap to Keep" (considering the total blend of maintenance costs, purchase price, cost of ignition keys, cost of remote keyless entry transmitters, cost of replacement tires, don't need special "hybrid vehicle insurance", and real world fuel economy). And the Buicks are very good on emissions, too!

Some of those '98 era Buick Regal 3800 V-6s do spec out a 7YR Delco battery, which is just past the $100.00 range, but we know that a similar 6YR Delco battery can be used, which is a little less money. Will the Hybrids have that owner-option too??

And that does not even address styling, comfort, luxury, etc. . . . . all of which could be subjective anyway.

We might debate just when the Japanese hybrid vehicles started making money for their manufacturers, but it doesn't discount the that they had to sell them "too cheap" in relation to actual production costs just to get them out there. They used the profits of their regular products to subsidize the hybrids from day one, but with an alleged $10K factory production cost hickey on each hybrid, they probably didn't want to see very many anyway. And THAT doesn't address the intense R&D which continues for future versions either. So, all in all, I would call them a "break even proposition" at this time, but not a "profitable proposition" at this time. Yes, more units on existing technology makes the unit cost lower, but if it had been health care costs/unit rather than development cost/unit, the Wall Street People would probably have been screaming "STOPPP!!!" or telling the press what a big mess those companies were in.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I DO know that the real world cuise economy of a 2004 Buick LeSabre (according to the onboard trip computer . . . your Hybrid got one of those?? </div></div>

Yes. It gives instantaneous mileage and mileage over distance set with Trip Meter A. It also has really cool moving graphics depicting the the real-time functioning of the hybrid system and mileage plus regenerated kilowatts in 5 minute increments for the last 30 minutes driven, in your choice of 4 color schemes! When I calculate mileage the old fashioned way (division) I'm usually doing about 2-3 mpg better than the computer says I am.

At 70 mph I've broken 50 mpg twice, and average around 48.

-----

As for the rest, you may insist on being wrong as long as you want. <span style="font-style: italic">Resale value?, tires?, "special" insurance?, subsidized prices?, maintenence costs?,... are you fact checking <span style="font-weight: bold">any</span> of these things or just listening to backyard "experts"? And do you think that we who own hybids don't know what checks we're writing?</span> For one minor point, the Prius is almost exactly the same size as a '98 Regal and emits about 25% of the emissions. Oh yeah, in 2006 the Prius costs slightly less than the Regal did in 1998, more so if you adjust for inflation.

It simply doesn't make GM look any better to be defended in this manner.

[Gene Brink]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave, the performance figures you quote seem suspiciously close to what I've seen Car and Driver and Motor Trend quote for a normal 1998 era Buick Regal with the Buick 3800 V-6! The 1/4 mile ET might be a tad slower in the Buick (as in 1/10s of a second) and similar with the 0-60mpg time. I DO know that the real world cuise economy of a 2004 Buick LeSabre (according to the onboard trip computer . . . your Hybrid got one of those?? we haven't talked about that luxury item on it . . . with the a/c ON) is above 30mpg at 65mph, which I HAVE observed myself.</div></div> Willis, your point is? Dave has never said hybrid's perform better than other cars in terms of acceleration - but they do keep up. Real work mileage of the Accord hybrid is pretty amazing given the performance specs (i.e. acceleration) - especially given it's mpg and emissions specs. His point is hybrids currently are not a matter of giving up the flexibility and drivibility one has with a "normal" car like they once were <span style="font-style: italic">as well as pointing out that, in his opinion, GM (including Buick) is not bringing cutting edge products to market.</span> Hard to argue with that given the available product. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, Dave, using your quoted figures and comparing them to many years of road tests of Buick Regals with Buick 3800 V-6s, plus the mpg I've observed myself in the 2004 LeSabre . . . just WHAT is the real, "real world" advantage to a Honda Hybrid in the first place? You pay more for it, comparatively speaking compared to other similar brand vehicles. You don't really know what it'll be worth next year.</div></div> The latest CU clearly points out that when cost of ownership is the prime consideration the current hybrids do NOT make sense. That, however, does NOT mean they are necessarily a bad thing to buy - just will not pay a cash dividend over <span style="font-style: italic">other cars of similar size and performance</span>. And regarding resale - that is pretty well known as a number of hybrids have been available long enough to see what they are being sold for as used cars. They seem to be holding their value quite well generally (and I would expect the newer hybrids to be similar in this category). Lower emissions are certainly an advantage the hybrids have and I guess one could make an argument that clean air is "priceless" (but, of course, we do put a price on it every day and rationalize that driving old cars <span style="font-style: italic">so little</span> is an acceptable manner in which to enjoy our hobby -- and I agree with that having made the same rationalization myself) <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, using your figures, Dave, it appears that many of us in here are pretty intelligent for choosing Buicks with the Buick 3800 V-6 in it!</div></div> Did he ever say it wasn't a good decision to buy a Buick? He has pointed out over and over that CU has rated a number of models as recommended (which means a good choice to buy). <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We might debate just when the Japanese hybrid vehicles started making money for their manufacturers, but it doesn't discount the that they had to sell them "too cheap" in relation to actual production costs just to get them out there.</div></div> And what car <span style="font-style: italic">ever</span> available to the general car buying public was not sold "at a loss" for a long time before the manufacturer started turning a profit? Development costs are huge and it takes a lot of sales to make the money back. Nothing new here...

Are we reading posts objectively???

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The latest CU clearly points out that when cost of ownership is the prime consideration the current hybrids do NOT make sense. That, however, does NOT mean they are necessarily a bad thing to buy - just will not pay a cash dividend over other cars of similar size and performance. </div></div>

Gene, for the record I thought <span style="font-style: italic">CU</span>'s financial analysis on hybrids was overly pessimistic and downright harsh. For one thing the Prius ownership costs were compared to the Corolla, not the much more size appropriate 4 cyl. Camry. For another the luxury (RX330) and performance (Accord) tuned hybrids were lumped in with the emissions/economy tuned cars (Prius/Civic).

<span style="font-style: italic">CU</span>'s added hybrid depreciation and maintenance costs are simply not something I'm seeing in the real world. Priuses in particular have been run 200K+ miles as taxis with <span style="font-style: italic">zero</span> hybrid system related costs. It turns out that by the time hybrid systems have reached their design life most of the rest of the car is also well beyond it's life and hybrid system maintenance simply isn't a factor. The quelling of those fears have stabilized <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> depreciation tradeoff, and hybrids today enjoy a substantial trade-in advantage over conventional cars--hardly the other way around. According to Edmunds.com my Prius is currently worth $800 more than I paid for it, with 11K miles and in an area of relative low demand for the car.

That said, it is quite true that buying a hybrid has more to do with morality than economics. Treading lightly on the earth becomes more important each year, and each year the public is more aware. We even have oil company ads now touting such (shades of the tobacco industry ). Perhaps the best part of driving my Prius is that I get just as many comments and questions from people as I do when drving my '60 or my TR6 (when it ran--currently under construction). They're now a common sight around here and people still stop me and ask about the car regularly.

You're going to be seeing a lot more of these cars for years to come!

=====

<span style="font-weight: bold">This thread started with the concept of recreating the GM division structure. What would happen if one of the divisions, say Saturn or Pontiac, were designated <span style="font-style: italic">all hybrid</span> in the near future? I'd dare say a bold move like that would pay dividends beyond car sales. For one GM wouldn't be thought of in the (at best partially warrented) backward terms it is today among many.</span>

[Guest my3buicks]

<span style="font-weight: bold">This thread started with the concept of recreating the GM division structure. What would happen if one of the divisions, say Saturn or Pontiac, were designated <span style="font-style: italic">all hybrid</span> in the near future? I'd dare say a bold move like that would pay dividends beyond car sales. For one GM wouldn't be thought of in the (at best partially warrented) backward terms it is today among many.</span>

Interesting thought and concept, sounds like a good fit for Saturn

[Guest unclefogey]

When determining the net loss for hybrids in the CR analysis, please don't forget about the dollars the usual government give away program of a tax credit adds to the plus side of the hybrid equation that the comparison Corolla doesn't have in its column. The tax credit figure for a Highlander hybrid is said to be $2,200 right into the pocket of the purchaser.

I am not knowledgeable enough to properly attach a website address as a link, but right now at http://autos.aol.com/ws1?icid=WS_Hybrid_Main is an updated analysis of the of the CR report on hybrids.

I have asked previously on another thread asked if any of the posters had submitted this year's CR survey and thus are obviously CR subscribers. Have yet to see a positive answer. Am I the only one? My response added to the result that the '98 Ranger 2WD is a recommended vehicle under $6,000 purchase and the '99 Chev Suburban is a vehicle to avoid.

[NTX5467]

"Backyard experts"????? On the issue of "hybrid insurance", what I listened to was a radio spot by Traveler's Insurance Company . . . something like "special cars need special insurance" was mentioned.

It would also make sense to me that a hybrid might come with some type of low rolling resistance tire, which might not be available at just any tire store. Kind of like insurance that the mpg figures would be as great as possible. I admit I haven't investigated this fact, but it does seem to have some credibility.

Dave quoted performance figures for the particular hybrid. I just countered with a comment that they are very similar to what many magazines have reported for most any GM W-car platform vehicle with the Buick 3800 V-6. No more, no less. But I did develope that thought a little farther, too, which also drew some more information out of Dave in the process. My general point is . . . using Dave's quoted figures . . . almost any of the 1997+ GM W-car platform vehicles can achieve performance and fuel economy that closely match the figures Dave quoted, with nothing unusual in the process, vehicular equipment wise, just plain ole solid internal combustion engineering (but well-finessed). Vehicles that number in the millions on the roadways of this world we live in. How many hybrids have been sold year-to-date? Again, using the figures Dave quoted for hybrid performance.

As long as fuel prices stay as they are, which is something of an "unknown" at this time, hybrid vehicle prices (new and used) will remain generally high. Just as with some diesel vehicles, not everybody needs to have one. They'll sing praises of it until they have to spend money on it. One of the normal places such a generic customer would start to look would be the local auto supply (can't go to a dealer, they'll be toooooo expensive). If they then end up at an auto salvage venue, whatever they might purchase will cost pretty much the same as "new", due to what it is. Last resort would be the dealership, typically, and then they'd have to wait for the item to be special ordered (just a hunch, here).

Remember too, this generic customer will most probably NOT be networked with the suppliers and such that Dave is -- key point -- but they might get there sooner or later -- if they have access to Al Gore's Internet. Remember, this generic customer could just as well be a frugal college student or somebody's grand mother. End result, it'll be a "good car" until it costs them more to keep it going than a similar '98 Buick Regal LS (for example). Therefore, in that scenario, many people would be better off staying away from anything not "mainstream". Not to say that in, possibly 10 years, things might be highly different!

As I've previously stated, I'm glad Dave and others like their hybrids. We've agreed they are not yet cost effective to own, compared to a similar fossil fuel vehicle, so that throws other factors into the mix of what would motivate somebody to purchase a new one (best option, to me) or a used one (less best option, to me, all things considered). I suspect that ultimate customer satisfaction with hybrids will depend upon how long the factory warranty period is on new hybrid vehicles (AND availability of viable extended warranty coverages or used car warranties on hybrids). By observation, as long as it's in warranty, they have much more cost protection than if it's aged/been used past that years/miles limit. I hope those earlier hybrids don't eventually end up with the same "desire to purchase" factor as a used Cadillac Cimmaron, as a used car.

I'm aware that, at the present time, hybrid vehicles will make sense for a good many people, BUT we need choice in purchase decisions for vehicles that fit our individual real-world needs. I highly suspect the current desire for SUV-type vehicles was not driven specifically by the popularity of Jeep Cherokees in the 1980s, but CAFE that resulted in great downsizing of normal cars and their related fwd architectures. If anybody wanted something with rear wheel drive, they had to buy a Ford or some sort of truck-based vehicle, much less a V-8 (of any size). Trying to force people to downsize in their vehicle purchase decisions will/has worked to a point--that point being to where the added utility of a larger vehicle to support "lifestyle" activities (including the soccer grand mother!) where a sufficient-sized "station wagon" is no longer available. Station wagons were discontinued and were seemingly replaced by Suburbans and Tahoes and Expeditions. But that's another story . . .

Cheers!

NTX5467

[Gene Brink]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gene, for the record I thought <span style="font-style: italic">CU</span>'s financial analysis on hybrids was overly pessimistic and downright harsh. For one thing the Prius ownership costs were compared to the Corolla, not the much more size appropriate 4 cyl. Camry. For another the luxury (RX330) and performance (Accord) tuned hybrids were lumped in with the emissions/economy tuned cars (Prius/Civic).</div></div> Can not argue with your points as I often find the CU's point of view is not my point of view so I discount what they say in varying degrees depending upon what it is, etc. Would not be a huge difference to have used the Camry instead of the Corolla though.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">CU</span>'s added hybrid depreciation and maintenance costs are simply not something I'm seeing in the real world. Priuses in particular have been run 200K+ miles as taxis with <span style="font-style: italic">zero</span> hybrid system related costs.</div></div> If I were a betting man I'd bet you would always be at the upper end of reliability for a given vehicle as I sense you maintain and drive them carefully so I'd be inclined to give less weight to your personnal experience when compared to CU's statistical data from multiple users (in fact your discounting is a bit like a number of other readers discounting CU's conclusions about US/Japanese/European cars isn't it? ) And I have to think that because commercial use, like a taxi, accumlates mileage is so short a time period that comparisons are not apt to be applicable to non-commercial use so may not be a good predictor of system reliability. It will be interesting to follow your experiences with your car. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">According to Edmunds.com my Prius is currently worth $800 more than I paid for it, with 11K miles and in an area of relative low demand for the car.</div></div> Hmmm. I'd like to know what, if any, influence a premium on a new car might have in driving the price up. If any I would expect the used price to drop quickly once one can buy a new one for a better price (by the way, any chance your purchase price was negotiated at a "good" price making this an anomaly for you personally?). Prius' are still bringing a premium mark-up here in the Los Angeles area for most buyers but have no idea about Ohio. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That said, it is quite true that buying a hybrid has more to do with morality than economics.</div></div> Don't know about the morality of this (don't really see it) but think it is more like the whale oil thread a couple of years ago. Our use and dependence on oil will diminish as alternatives become fiscally practical and probably not until then (do not think technology will drive this without it making $$ sense - which means longer rather than shorter timewise). Once that point is reached old car hobbists may be the only folks wanting gasoline (not in my lifetime though...).<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps the best part of driving my Prius is that I get just as many comments and questions from people as I do when drving my '60 or my TR6 (when it ran--currently under construction). They're now a common sight around here and people still stop me and ask about the car regularly.</div></div> This is a good thing and I am convinced will drive progress in this area as companies do attempt to meet user needs/desires (although sometimes much too slowly and NOT for the few - more for the many in their customer base). Like you I am glad there are viable hybrids and look forward to more of them. A hybrid line primarily attached to one GM line might be a good idea (although I am fearful that by the time GM adopts it will be too late...). (Know what you mean by "when it ran" with regards to a British car as I have a '72 MG Midget [although it is MUCH improved over the '60 MGA I had years ago] that currently is not running.)

Enjoy these exchanges!

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Would not be a huge difference to have used the Camry instead of the Corolla though. </div></div>

Not in the area of gas mileage. The Corolla only gets 2-3 mpg better than the Camry, so comparing the Prius to the Corolla instead only lowered the gas savings a few hundred dollars per year. However the cost of purchase analysis was thrown <span style="font-style: italic">way</span> off. The Corolla cost almost $6K less than the Prius, whereas the Camry is barely $2K less.

That $4000 difference <span style="font-style: italic">was the difference</span> between breaking even and paying extra to drive the Prius.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...by the way, any chance your purchase price was negotiated at a "good" price making this an anomaly for you personally? </div></div>

Oh man, I wish!

I <span style="font-style: italic">stole</span> my Prius , in that I only had to pay exact sticker price for it. See if you can find anybody in CA who could pull that off last summer! $1500 over sticker was considered a good price, and that went with a 3-6 month wait for the car. Some were paying $5K over sticker! (I bought mine right off the truck, it was ordered and the purchaser could get the financing together. Typical waiting periods here were 4-6 weeks at the time.)

There were a few dozen people who were buying these cars in eastern states and immediately reselling them in CA (often on eBay). They were making about $1-3K per car a year ago. Hopefully supply has caught up now so that this sillyness has stopped.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> (in fact your discounting is a bit like a number of other readers discounting CU's conclusions about US/Japanese/European cars isn't it? ) </div></div>

Exactly. I never said to accept their word as gospel but as an accurate indicator of trends. However my discounting of their results is based on new information (possibly newer than the <span style="font-style: italic">CU</span> write-up--and not my personal info by the way, but that taken from many owner sources {mainly online}), whereas most of the people who carp about <span style="font-style: italic">Consumer Reports</span> here use 10-20-30 year old cars/data/experience to do so.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And I have to think that because commercial use, like a taxi, accumlates mileage is so short a time period that comparisons are not apt to be applicable to non-commercial use so may not be a good predictor of system reliability. </div></div>

It looks like we're all going to get the chance to find out real soon! This popped into my inbox about 20 minutes ago. It the transcript of a segment on this weekend's <span style="font-style: italic">Motorweek</span> show: Catching the Hybrid Taxi .

Check this quote out!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And that's the plan, to gradually merge more hybrids into more taxi fleets throughout the country. <span style="font-weight: bold">Auto industry leaders predict that [color:\\"green\\"]within five to ten years the [color:\\"red\\"]entire New York City taxi fleet will be converted to gas-electric hybrids</span>, and everyone seems to agree that the word green is not just a good thing for the environment, but also good for business. </div></div>