Might save parts sellers some trouble (about ebay)

[Guest]

Here is a copy of MANY emails I have responded to on EBAY regarding the sale of parts that I cannot PERFECTLY identify. Do not try to do it. It is prohibited. Oh, sure, one can sell them with a vague title, but in the case the ad will not reach enough buyers to be worth it. I think they are doing all of us in the collector car world a really big disservice. I tried to get through to them till I was blue in the <BR>facefrom frustration and exasperation. Finally, I ended all my auctions that had no bids and will not longer use their service!!<P>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Perry Smith" <perrysmith@onewest.net><BR>To: "eBay Safe Harbor" <SafeHarbor@eBay.COM><BR>Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 7:39 AM<BR>Subject: Re: keyword spamming (KMM52728807V2739L0KM)<P><BR>> Trinity,<BR>> Thank you for your clarification. Still, in the case that was<BR>reviewed...the<BR>> key words ARE related . VERY MUCH SO. And the purpose of my doing so was<BR>> certainly NOT to manipulate the search engine, but to allow people to have<BR>a<BR>> chance to find a part they might need. Your one size fits all policy on<BR>this<BR>> issue is an insult! Like I am trying to sell a fake Gucci bag or<BR>something!<BR>> It DOES NOT make it more difficult for buyers to find things. Rather, it<BR>> makes it possible for buyers to find things! I know...I have found<BR>several<BR>> rare parts and bought them myself BECAUSE other people used keywords. No<BR>one<BR>> MUST click on the titles of any of the search results and my item titles<BR>> always give enough info that unless someone had SOME interest they would<BR>> not waste time clicking on it. GO AHEAD, Trinity...Type in 1948 Chevrolet<BR>> Radio as though you are searching for one, then write me a letter telling<BR>me<BR>> what an imposition I was!!! I was really upset about this, and as I said,<BR>it<BR>> is your company and you can run it as you wish. 204 good feedbacks, no<BR>> neutrals or negatives, and I am truly stunned that Ebay attacks me for<BR>just<BR>> trying to sell parts and connect with someone who needs something I<BR>have!!!<BR>> Any common sense there? After tens of thousands of dollars business, you<BR>are<BR>> basically telling me I can no longer sell my parts on ebay (because I<BR>cannot<BR>> PERFECTLY identify them)...I mean the title and description must be so<BR>vague<BR>> that finding a buyer would be unlikely. In your efforts to protect some<BR>> obsessive/compulsive who does not want to buy the part (BY God, he wants<BR>to<BR>> find the timing chain for his 1935 Buick RIGHT NOW, without one coming up<BR>in<BR>> his search that fits a 35 Cadillac (and they could very well be<BR>> interchangeable anyway)!!you are doing a disservice to anyone who<BR>> DOES. If I put down 1931 rear fender and it turns out to be a 1932<BR>> then I have misrepresented my item...and surely that must be against the<BR>> rules too!!! You guys one size fits all policy here is ridiculous...who<BR>is<BR>> your vintage car parts expert? I would sure like to talk to them and<BR>maybe<BR>> I can send them in a picture and have them perfectly identify my part<BR>before<BR>> I list. I will tell you what is really annoying. When I am looking for a<BR>> part by surfing throught collector parts, I have to scroll through page<BR>> after page of mousepads (they have a car pic on them), watch bands, and<BR>> other trinkets. THIS REALLY WASTES OTHER PEOPLES TIME, but apparently that<BR>> don't matter! The poor guy whose listing got stuck in the middle of these<BR>> gets cheated because browsers looking for car parts just page though these<BR>> trinket pages!!! I think you guys did not even read my explanation about<BR>> General Motors parts fitting cars in different divisions!!! A Ford 289<BR>> engine was also used in Mercurys. Ford used the same engine for 17<BR>> years!!!!!!!!!!! in his model Ts. But geniuses at EBAY say that cannot be<BR>> so someone should notify Ford and tell them they did not (otherwise I<BR>guess<BR>> Ford was spamming engines by year)!! Apparently, they did not know it<BR>> would be against Ebay policy!!!! Instead of being self-anointed experts<BR>> regarding vintage car parts, why do you not ask some people in the hobby<BR>if<BR>> what I am saying is true. Why must you attack a customer? it just does<BR>not<BR>> make sense at all!!!! I am really upset, but have cooled down since<BR>> yesterday. I really hate to teerminate my selling on ebay but you have<BR>> managed to ruin my ability to sell and it really upsets me because you and<BR>I<BR>> both know it will not hurt ebay, but it will hurt me!!! Also, a couple of<BR>> times I have needed help from ebay...almost impossible ...labyrinth of<BR>form<BR>> letters and run arounds and eventually sometimes got help, but terrible<BR>> customer service if you really need to talk to someone. But you have time<BR>to<BR>> attack sellers unjustifiably!!!You guys are pretty unbelievable!!!<BR>> Still angry frustrated and stunned, I remain,<BR>> Perry

[Guest]

Perry, in all do respect, I can bet you pushed the envelope on your key words. I have sold over a thousand items on ebay and I can tell you, I have done it too. You have to remember, eBay, doesn't go looking for this "violation" the are reacting to reports to them. I have gotten the same warning once. It was a time I got the hair brained I idea to type up ONE ad, with one group of key words. Then I would just paste this ad and change the item discription for each ad. So, there were about 30 ads with all the same key words. Now, I know someone who would [censored] about this to eBay needs a life, I agree. But when I have the years 1939 1940 1941 1946 1947 1948 1949- all they way up to 1960 and Chrylsler Ford Chevy Chevrolet Buick etc. If some one was looking for a 1955 Chevy part they got a page with ALL my 30 items! And not ONE SINGLE 55 Chevy part! Like I said, the guy has no life if he has the time to contact eBay over this, but he has the right to do so. <P>I did that ONE time, I heeded the warning and haven't had a problem since. <P>I can tell you this, I have pushed the "rule" a mile by simply not using "key word" but rather using these key words in a "story" in the ad.<P>"I have been told this wizbang is from 1959 Buick, but being GM cars are so similar it may be for a Chevy, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, or even a Cad, Cadillac. And even fit a few more years like 1957 1960 1961 1962. I am not saying it is a Wizbang, some people call them Mufferbearings other people call them whatcamacallit. But I am pretty sure it is not a Chrysler, Dodge or Plymouth" <P>I have NEVER had a complaint while doing that. Yes, it takes a little more time to put the ad in, but I feel it is worth the time. <P>I just sold a very strange item for a 1980 Lincoln Continental (an NOS garage door opener reciever!). Who in the heck is going to be searching for a 1980 Lincoln garage door opener?? I said things like "you need this to complete your rare accessory accessorie, option collection. I have never seen one of these and don't think Cadillac or Chrylser ever had such a bizare option. If you have a Lincoln Mark V Mark VI Mark VII or Town Car made in the late seventies 1977 1978 1979 or early eighties 1980 1981 1992 in your garage, you need this!" <P>No complaints and I got $108.00 for it!!<p>[ 06-05-2002: Message edited by: MARTINSR ]

[Guest]

Thanks for your comments Martin,<BR>But I hate to tell you this, you are still breaking the rules the way you are doing this. if you do not put exactly what the part fits, and mention ANY might-be candidates, you are in violation! I have an email from Ebay to prove it. Also, I do not believe someone complained. I doubt I have EVER had more than three items that would show up on any given specific search!! Usually only one at a time. No one must open the title, anyway, and my descriptions usually have included information to inform people so as to exlude anyone who did not have at least SOME interest in the item from clicking on it! I get no jollies out of wasting other peoples time, for heaven sake!! The more specific I can make the search the more likely I am to find a buyer!! But perhaps you can carry on and Ebay will not happen to look at your ads and attack you for it like they have me!! Good Luck!

[Guest]

MARTINSR,<BR>I BUY A TON OF STUFF ON EBAY AND, FRANKLY, THE MORE DESCRIPTIVE THE SELLER CAN BE THE BETTER I LIKE THEM!!! I HATE GUESSING ABOUT AN ITEM, AND I'M RATHER IMPULSIVE SO DON'T ENJOY WAITING TWO OR THREE DAYS FOR THE ANSWER (MAYBE) TO MY QUESTION.<BR>EVER HEAR OF A "DELCO-MATIC" GARAGE DOOR OPENING SYSTEM? WELL, IT WAS A GENUINE GM DEALER OPTION IN THE MID 50's. I HAVE ONE OF THEM INSTALLED ON MY '56 SPECIAL WHICH WILL BE IN KOKOMO NEXT MONTH IF YOU WANT TO SEE ONE WITH YOUR OWN EYES. I ALSO HAVE A FULL PAGE AD IN A LIFE MAGAZINE TO PROVE THESE CRITTERS ARE LEGIT.<BR>HOPE TO SEE YOU IN KOKOMO.<BR>BOB LEETS

[Guest]

Perry, someone HAD to complain. There is no way ebay has the time to check even a fraction of one percent of the ads. There is no software that could identify your ad as not being legit either as near as I can tell. If you listed a number of makes in an ad, say for a book. There is no way any sort of red flag could fly for ebay to check. They would need a team of thousands of EDUCATED people in every field known to man to sort out the "spaming" from correct allowed info in an ad. I just got a body hammer on eBay. The ad read "Auto body, Tinsmith, blacksmith, cobbler, etc. He honestly didn't know what it was. There is not a snow ball chance in hell eBay would have said a thing about this ad. I am telling you, you need to look at what you did honestly, you DID spam the ads. If you want to stop selling on eBay, then leave it the way it is. If you don't, then bite the bullet and tell eBay you won't do it again like I did. If you watch yourself and do as I am tell you, you WILL NOT hear from them. Why, because no one will complain. <BR>I am sorry, when it happened to me, I even got emails from people telling me they WERE going to report me to eBay. Without them, eBay would have never known. <BR>And without any complaints, I won't hear from them on the way I do it now, I gaurantee it.<P>Bob, no I have never heard of that GM option. THAT is the reason why it is totally legit to put that HONEST info in an ad. If you don't know, then you need to put SOMETHING in the ad to draw the people who do.

[Guest]

I have to add another thought. EBay could care less what you put in your ad. All they care about is whether you are selling stuff so they can profit from the ad. So you see, unless they get complaints, your ad is perfect to them.

[Guest]

Martin and Bob, I can tell you are both speaking your heartfelt opinions and I appreciate that. This would certainly not be the first time that I thought I was right and turned out I was wrong!!! That said, I must take issue with a couple of your comments, Brian. The particular ad I am referring to, that I was busted for.... was NOT blatant spamming like the shotgun approach of just listing anything (you know, the harebrained approach)! It was narrowed down to 3 years and then I listed the GM makes on the highly probable thought that the part (or a part of the part) might be interchangeable (as many from this era are). Now, here is the link to the listing, the only thing missing is the fact that I ended the auction early (you can see I was scrambling to try to please ebay), after finding that unless I knew exactly what my parts fit, I could not list them within the rules of ebay. As a quick aside to those who list parts: Never ever use the word KEYWORD in your listing....that will draw immediate response! But, back to the link: <A HREF="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1832983662" TARGET=_blank>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1832983662</A> <BR>So, in this case, I DID know exactly what the radio fit, and since it was a dealer installed option, I thought it very reasonable to include the years and makes that would have a high probability of interchange or at least parts of it would. I could easily live with the suggestion thatI not use the word keyword and I could have amended THIS auction to be perfectly in compliance. But ouch, what about the "tons" of parts I have accumulated and made substantial investment in, which I dare not list on ebay now because I cannot perfectly peg the application? Oh, sure, I could play the game and say the metal screws on the case will fit perfectly on Buick, Cad, olds, etc..etc. and include about every make and year of car that ever had a radio!!! Why do I not do that? Because doing that becomes a frivolous waste of other peoples time...like the shotgun approach. Brian, I rather resent your convicting me in the first degree as you have....I have to wonder if you uphold the conviction now that you can actually read the ad!?? You apparently see me as a capitalist jerk rather than an honest seller just trying to sell his parts to someone who needs them (I have about a 70% sell ratio on about 90 things I have sold, and at least half were not perfectly identified, so perhaps someone appreciated my efforts to connect my parts with them!) With VERY few exceptions, these items sold in 2 listings or less, usually in seven days.<BR>I am going to pretend I am a 1950 chevy owner who needs a radio and (right now) go browse 1950 chevrolet. I am also going to assume I am an impulsive, I want it right now type! So, I will narrow my search to EBAY motors collectors parts before I browse.<BR>Total of eighteen items! This is a typical search in this category. Am I REALLY that much of an imposition to this person??? Especially when it dawns on him...hmmm, these radios are enough alike that maybe I can use the tubes out of it to repair mine!! And my showcar will be complete! I also think you have delusions of grandiosity about the magnitude of EBAY, the worlds most fantastic marketing organization, at least in this field....of collector car parts!! I have personally monitored EVERY part up for auction in this category at least 4 days of every week for several months now!! Time it takes me browse, looking at 24 hours worth at a time: LESS THAN 2 HOURS, and I usually click on 20-40 titles and examine the items which interest me within these 2 hours!!! So, it would not take umpteen million people to monitor it. The heck of it is, if a seller tries to be considerate of other people, he will indicate right in the title that the part fits years xyz and brands abc and put question mark as well to exclude those from clicking who do not want to! In the case of this radio, I did not put the question mark because I still argue it is pegged tight for those who might have interest! And so, I hope you are seeing WHY I hold their policy of exactness to be a disservice to those buying AND selling collector car parts. Especially, when BY FAR the biggest waste of time I encounter while doing my nightly browsing was folks whose listings should not even be in the category!! Trinkets, mousepads, keychains, etc. Bob, if you browse collector car parts, I am not worried because if you grab your gun, I think you will go after those guys before you come after me, lol, (they are sometimes a full half (eg, 1940 ford) of the listings!. And by the way, personally, although annoyed, I say to myself...that's pretty marginal for car parts, but everybody wants to make a living.! I really am blue in the face over this, but I gotta say I concede to you guys, (my fellow hobbyists). Really, it is a moot point (for me) anyway; after a valiant struggle, I conceded to EBay and pulled all my auctions (because about half of them were not within the exact definition rule). Unhappy though I am, I am the first to say that it is their company, and HOW they run it is their business! But when nobody agrees with me including fellow hobbyists, I think it is time to assume I am wrong, even if I think I am not, if you know what I mean! <BR>Brian, I have a speculative hunch that all they have to do is type the word keyword in the search engine to find we offenders who use that word! And to make their detective function viable, they could type abcdef (manufacturers or years) into the search engine and it would also narrow the search for spamming offenders way down! Thus,they would not need a million detectives at all, just 10 or 12 and the search function!!! So, I still believe he was NOT a browser who complained in this case! I asked them if even one person had EVER complained about my auctions and I feel they would have used that fact to counter my arguments had it in reality been a fact!!!<BR>Perry

[Guest]

You win, I am such a fool.<p>[ 06-06-2002: Message edited by: MARTINSR ]

[Bill Stoneberg]

Perry & Martinsr,<BR>Let me speak from a buyer's side. It makes me mad to look for something for my 1950 Buick and find all kinds of stuff for other cars, wholesale price lists, "Dont touch unless your naked" stickers, etc. <BR>Would I complain ? Probably not (well,maybe for the stickers because they are spam listings).<BR>It would make me madder though not to find what I want because of the lack of keywords and descriptions. That has happened and I just found it by looking for Buick Items.<P>Perry, I read your ad and I sure couldn't see what was wrong unless it was the phrase "keywords". You can probably use the same words and get the same results by not using the phrase Keywords.<P>Perry, dont stop selling your stuff on E-bay. It is too important for the rest of the old car community. You obviously have had luck selling before, so accept the letter and move on. <BR>I think it is computer generated as opposed to complaints because of the keyword phrase. <BR>It is easy to scan ALL ads looking for a phrase like that and then send a letter. I work with programs that do that kind of work.<P>Besides, do you really want to drag that stuff to swap meet after swap meet year after year ?

[Guest]

Bill, I admit I know little about computer software. But I can't for the life of me figure out how software could do what you think it can. Of course picking out a single word like "Keyword" is a no brainer. But I can't imagine that there is software that could "tell" if an ad was spaming. It would have to have the knowledge of millions of subjects. If you posted a painting by Michele Angelo and used the keywords without using the work "keyword" of other painters with similar work, the dang software would have to know that these painters didn't paint that painting!!<P>How about a door latch for a 1965 Buick Skylark, it will fit and is exactly the same as ALL 1965 "A" bodies. The ad could contain the names Buick Skylark, Special, Gran Sport, Sport Wagon, Chevy, Chevrolet, Malibu, SS, Super Sport, Chevelle, El Camino, Oldsmobile, Cutless, F-85, 442, Pontiac, Tempest, GTO, Sprint. <P>While a grille emblem for an early '65 Gran Sport like mine is ONLY for the '65 Gran Sport made the first three weeks of production in Jan 1965. <P>You must be hitting the liquor a little early this weekend if you think there is software or the eBay resources by way of employees who could scan the MILLIONS of ads to find that I put the name Pontiac or 1966 in my ad for the '65 Gran Sport grille emblem, OR that door latch REALLY fits all those cars. <P>It happened to me as I said, a fellow ebayer TOLD ME he was turning me in. THAT is how it happens, period. Now, with the attitude that Perry has getting hot with me over my well meaning advice and the ridiculous eBay bashing he put in the ad ON eBay, I can see why they are "harassing" him. I would boot him off just on principle alone. <P>As I said, I have sold maybe a thousand items. I have the ledgers in front of me with the last 335 items with only 30 that didn't sell the FIRST time on. I have used my method on EVERY AD. I have pushed it so far you would laugh at the ad. If there is ANY chance what so ever that a part I am selling would fit on a 1959 Rolls-Royce Dump truck, I WILL fit it into the ad! <BR>The ONLY time I have ever had a problem was when I got the email from a guy saying he was turning me in to eBay and surprise, I got a warning from eBay. One warning, I responded with an apology and that was it, that was about 700 items ago. <P>Perry Pi$$ed someone off, PERIOD. Like I said, with the beating he gave me here after trying to help, I can only imagine what he would say to someone who really deserved a tongue lashing. The ranting in his ebay ad gives you a good taste though.

[YellowLark]

Why are you griping on this forum?<P>You're not going to change anybody's mind about eBay, just taking up bandwidth without contributing anything to a Buick discussion.

[Guest]

One thing I have learned after posting on many forums for a few years now, not only the posters are lurking. I will enter into these no win discussions not to convince some hard head but to "talk" to others who are reading but not in on the insanity. <BR>I would hate to think that someone reading this would think there is a shred of fact in what has been posted about the "unfair" folks at eBay, who have provided me with such a great venue to sell my parts and to buy some really great items that I would NEVER had found. <P>Like the old saying goes, if I can save just one old car nut, I will be happy. (tongue firmly in cheek)

[Guest]

By the way Yellowlark, there is not a single subject more important on this forum than the source for parts, NOT A SINGLE ONE. <BR>It is THE MOST common subject, and eBay is a very important source. As far as I am concerned, the MOST reliable source for used parts in the world, bar NONE.

[YellowLark]

"the MOST reliable source for used parts in the world, bar NONE."<P>I agree - and Perry needs to play by their rules - the same rules that have made eBay so successful for all of us.

[Bill Stoneberg]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> You must be hitting the liquor a little early this weekend if you think there is software or the eBay resources by way of employees who could scan the MILLIONS of ads to find that I put the name Pontiac or 1966 in my ad for the '65 Gran Sport grille emblem, OR that door latch REALLY fits all those cars. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not liquor, maybe a little heat drained from our 95 degree and 95 % humidity, but I still think it is software. <BR>Take your door latch as an example. <BR>You can build an array with Buick, Chevy, Pontiac etc. in it, you then check for those words in the ad. If it hits more than one, your out of here.<BR>Or you can watch for a particular behavior in an ad and flag it for further review.<P>Simple example and I agree it would be difficult for all the spam to get caught, but it could be done. <P>E-bay wrote the software they use so they know the behavior of people and how to catch stuff like that. Just like the people who write virus checking software knows the behavior of most viruses and how to create viruses.<P>Read the GM technology article that I list here. I am always amazed at what software can do and I work with it everyday.<P><A HREF="http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20020531S0008" TARGET=_blank>GM Article</A><P>As far as E-bay goes, I can't live without it.

[Guest]

Bill, thanks for the moral support and I also LOVED ebay, if that is a strong enough word. But I have so many parts that I can bracket but not identify perfectly, that I really felt knifed (since I had in ignorance listed them with SENSIBLE keywords for a whole year previous to this!). Sure, as I said, I could drop the word keyword, but then I found that the use of words indicataing what the part "might" likely fit is also against the rules. Perhaps I am such an unprincipled devil, as Martin seems to think, that my pride got the best of me (no doubt cut off my nose to spite my face!!) Anyway, the blue in my face is turning purple, and I will cease this tit for tat antagonist stuff and worry about where I can find some seventeen inch wheels for my old Buick 90. Thanks everyone for your comments, which I will continue to read.

[Guest]

So Bill, I don't have the knowledge to have an argument about ANYTHING concerning computers. So if you can tell me this could be done, I have to accept it. <P>Your example STILL does not even come close to doing what ebays "spam fighting" software would have to do. To find certain words and combinations of words is a given, of course that is easy. BUT, to KNOW when those words or combination of words IS spam from when it is not is impossible at this point in time. The data base on this one software alone would have to be as large as the New York city library. It would have to "KNOW" that a Kenmore refigerator is only sold at Sears and not Wards. IT would have to "KNOW" that a 1948 Indian Motor cycle does NOT share the same rim with a Harley, BUT does share the tire. It would have to "KNOW" that Grover tuning keys are found on a Gretch Guitar and not a Fender. It would have to "KNOW" that Martin Senour Paint is a label of Sherwin Williams paint company and NOT PPG. It would have to know that in the Book "Sleeper" by Wody Allen there is a Volkswagon Bug, But NOT a Porsche. It would have to "KNOW" that Jerry Quarry Boxed Joe Frasier but NOT Muhamad Ali. It would have to "KNOW" that Wheaties is made by General Mills and NOT Nabisco. If you can tell me two things I would appreciate it, one, could THIS be done at this point in time? Second, why in the heck would eBay want to invest in such a thing? <P>I did a search on eBay just now looking for "Pontiac Oldsmobile Buick", it gave me 1869 items. I clicked on the very first one. It was a radio adapter plate. The Description reads:<BR>MODEL # GM1583-<BR>This is the INSTALLATION KIT needed when installing any aftermarket stereo such as a JVC, ALPINE, ECLIPSE, SONY, CLARION, JENSEN, KENWOOD, PIONEER, AND MORE. Your radio mounts in the kit and then the kit mounts into the vehicle giving you the nice, factory installed professional look. This is a BUICK CHEVY CADILLAC OLDSMOBILE PONTIAC install kit and will fit VARIOUS CHRYLER VEHICLES UP TO 1999. This is a BRAND NEW kit made by SCOSCHE "The installers choice." I also have all other available installation parts to do just about any install!ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FEEL FREE TO ASK, GOOD LUCK AND HAPPY BIDDING. Please reference model # and yr, make, model of vehicle when emailing.<BR>FITS THE FOLLOWING CARS:<BR>BUICK-- 1997-UP CENTURY 1995-99 LE SABRE 1995-UP PARK AVENUE 1995-UP REGAL 1996-98 RIVIERA 1995-96 ROADMASTER 1996-UP SKYLARK <BR>CADILLAC-- 1992-95 ELDORADO 1992-95 SEVILLE <BR>CHEVROLET-- 2000-UP CAVALIER 2000-UP IMPALA 2000-UP MONTE CARLO 2000-UP VENTURE <BR>OLDSMOBILE-- 1996-UP ACHIEVA 1999-UP ALERO 1995-00 AURORA 1998-99 CUTLASS 1994-99 CUTLASS SUPREME 1989-93 EIGHTY-EIGHT 1998-UP INTRIGUE 1994-UP NINETY-EIGHT 1994-UP REGENCY 2000-UP SILHOUETTE <BR>PONTIAC-- 2000-UP BONNEVILLE <P>So if I understand you, there is software at eBay or an employee out of a stadium full of eBay employees who would know that a model "GM1583" will fit a Pontiac Bonneville AND a Chevy Cavilier? AND it will work with a Jenson AND Sony Sterio? <P>I then clicked on "view the sellers other items" and found that he has 67 similar ads. I went to his "feedback" and went back four months to April and clicked on one of his ads. This is what it was: <BR>THIS IS THE RADIO WIRING HARNESS TO INSTALL AN AFTERMARKET RADIO. WHY PAY UP TO 20 BUCKS AT A STEREO SHOP. THIS IS BRAND NEW STILL IN BAG. IT'S MADE BY SCOSCHE WHICH IS ONE OF THE LEADER IN CAR STEREO INSTALLATION PARTS. HARNESS WILL FIT: Chrysler Cirrus 95-00, Chrysler Concorde 93-01, Chrysler E-Class 84-93, Chrysler Fifth Avenue 84-93, Chrysler Imperial 90-93, Chrysler Laser (Laser 90-94 see Plymouth) 84-89, Chrysler LeBaron 84-95, Chrysler LHS 95-96, Chrysler New Yorker 84-96, Chrysler Sebring 95-01, Chrysler Town & Country (Mini Van) 90-01, Dodge Aries 84-89, Dodge Avenger 95-00, Dodge Caravan 84-01, Dodge Charger 84-87, Dodge Dakota 87-01, Dodge Daytona 84-93, Dodge Diplomat 84-89, Dodge Durango 98-01, Dodge Dynasty 88-93, Dodge Intrepid 93-01, Dodge Lancer 86-89, Dodge Neon 95-01, Dodge Omni 84-90, Dodge Ram Charger 84-93, Dodge Ram Pickup 84-01, Dodge Shadow 87-95, Dodge Spirit 89-95, Dodge Stratus 95-00, Dodge Van (Full Size) 84-01, Eagle Vision 93-97, Jeep Grand Cherokee 93-01, Jeep Wrangler 97-01, Plymouth 600E Class 84-87, Plymouth Acclaim 89-95, Plymouth Breeze 96-00, Plymouth Caravelle 85-88, Plymouth Gran Fury 84-89, Plymouth Horizon 84-90, Plymouth Neon 95-01, Plymouth Sundance 87-94, Plymouth Turismo 84-87, Plymouth Voyager 84-00 WIRE COLOR ARE COLOR CODED TO ALLOW YUU TO SIMPLY MATCH THESE UP TO YOUR JVC, ALPINE, ECLIPSE, SONY, CLARION, JENSEN, KENWOOD, PIONEER, ETC. RADIO AND SIMPLY PLUG INTO YOUR FACTORY WIRES. NO CUTTING OF PLUGS AND TAKES OUT THE GUESS WORK FOR RADIO INSTALLING. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FEEL FREE TO ASK, GOOD LUCK AND HAPPY BIDDING. <P>So again, if you are correct, eBay has software or an employee base that has an expert in aftermarket radio wiring who knows that this wiring harness DOES fit a Kenwood AND a JVC but NOT a Sound design (if sound design was in the ad, it would be spaming). AND that it fits both a Dodge Stratis AND a Jeep Cherokee but NOT a Jeep CJ (if CJ was in the ad it would be spaming). <P>Again, note that this is a four month old ad and eBay has NOT pulled his ads. Could it be that they have did their research in department store sized library and found in the catalog of wire harnesses that that model does indeed fit all those cars? <BR>Come on, Perry ticked someone off and they complained to eBay, PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Now, Perry may be a wonderful guy, I started this with assumption he was. He may have not did a single thing to deserve this, but that doesn't mean that some jerk out there didn't lost one of his auctions or offered him money to stop an auction or hundred other requests I have gotten from ebay users and was ticked off by his refusal (I have refused to do that too). The guy in retaliation complained to eBay. <P>I am not saying this to argue as much as I am to be proven wrong, if you tell me this is possible that eBay could do this with software, I will respect your word. If you tell me that they have employees do this, sorry I can't accept that. I personally can't even accept that eBay would EVER do that even if they had the power, but that is opinion, not fact.<P>Ok, I have a number of items to put on eBay, papa needs a new fence in the yard so I am selling some of my "treasures" to pay for it. gotta get back to work.<p>[ 06-08-2002: Message edited by: MARTINSR ]

[Guest]

Hello Perry,<P>Thank you for taking the time to write to us with your concerns. I would<BR>be happy to assist you further.<P>Your auction description contained the following text, which is <BR>inconsistent with our keyword spamming guidelines:<P>"...Key words: Buick Cadillac Pontiac Oldsmobile GMC pickup 1947 1951 <BR>1952..."<P>One of the main purposes for our keyword spamming policy is to provide <BR>an efficient search function. This helps bidders find the items they are<BR>looking for quickly and without having to filter out a lot of unrelated <BR>listings - listings that were solely included in the search results <BR>because the listing member included unrelated keywords. We believe that <BR>bidders will be more likely to continue to shop on eBay if they can find<BR>the items they are looking for in a quick and efficient manner. <P>Perhaps this will be helpful to someone. My understanding is/was that it is not spamming if in fact the part DOES work with the cars one lists, but once again I may not be correct on this. Of course, saying that something (definately) fits what it does not, would be more or less self-policing and self-defeating, as it would be fraudulent. My real heartache (like a jilted lover..bitter), came when I found it is against rules to put probable vintage car parts applications in the listing, I suppose based on Martin's logic; i.e., they could not have enough experts to monitor what is and is not probable. Although this email (above) has the term "unrelated", I do have other comments from ebay saying essentially that probable candidates cannot be included...only specific and accurate ones (and the majority of my parts I just cannot peg that tight). I will try to be quiet now, just thought this might help someone.

[Guest]

The point of my last post is NOT to say that this guys ads were spamming. The ad clearly states that these parts DO fit all makes and models listed. My point is HOW could ebay possibly know WHAT makes and models these parts DO fit. Without knowing the answer, they couldn't possibly have the resourses to find and contact any sellers who are spamming without the HELP of some fellow ebayer turning in the guilty seller. THAT is my point. I know that a tail lamp off a 1969 Shelby GT500 is EXACTLY the same as a 1968 T-Bird. Your telling me that eBay knows this too and wouldn't warn me about spaming even though I have these obviously different model cars listed as correct for the same part? You got turned in to ebay by a someone. <BR>I understand eBays point of view, I got one of those emails my self remember. They are right, it is unfair to waste peoples time with unrelated keywords, what is your point?

[Guest]

Just that I think in my case, the Keyword word drew them to me! At that point, I turned myself in, because even if I removed the keyword word, they could now see by MY OWN wording that I was listing parts, and was admitting I did not know with certainty that they fit all the applications! So because of this admission, they assumed I was spamming "unrelated" words, and no amount of pleading my case seemed to matter. In subsequent correspondence, I found that including "might-fits" is itself against the rules. One Ebay person said that I could use one other make/year included for comparison purposes, e.g., "this is brand x, it is not like brand y". I guess that is my point, and also, to let other people know how ebay regards this issue which might keep someone from making the same mistakes.

[Guest]

Also, I seem to remember something said about a Rolls Royce dumptruck and even the vaguest connection justifying putting it in an ad. I guess that is fair and not wasting some one elses time? Fairness does not seem to be the issue as much as whether one can get away with it. I frequently search using the "include item description tab".

[Guest]

And here is this, you do not have to take my wDear perrysmodela (perrysmith@onewest.net),<P>We appreciate that you chose eBay to list the following item:<P>1949 Chevrolet Motorola radio head 1948 1950 <BR> Item # 1832983662 <P>However, your listing is in violation of eBay policy. We would like to take this opportunity to let you know what part of your listing is not permitted.<P>Your listing contains the following information:<P>"Key words: Buick Cadillac Pontiac Oldsmobile GMC pickup 1947 1951 1952"<P>We realize you may not be aware of this policy, but using lists of "key" words in this way is considered "keyword spamming," which is not permitted by eBay. <P>This notice is based solely upon review of the aforementioned listing. We encourage you to review all of your listings to ensure full compliance to our guidelines. If found to be in violation of one or more of our guidelines, your current listings will be subject to further disciplinary action, including the cancelation of your listings.<P>Keyword spamming is the practice of adding words, including brand names, which do not directly describe the item you are selling. Keyword spamming is also unfair to members who may be searching for a specific item and receive search results of listings which are not selling these items.<P>Methods of Key Word Spamming include, but are not limited to:<P>1. Extra Brand Names in Title or Item Description<BR>2. Not Brand X, Not Brand Y<BR>3. Improper Trademark Usage<BR>4. Lists of "Key" Words<BR>5. Hidden Text (White on white text, or hidden text in HTML Code)<BR>6. Drop Down Boxes<P>Our guidelines regarding keyword spamming can be reviewed on this eBay policy page:<BR> <A HREF="http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/png-wordspam.html" TARGET=_blank>http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/png-wordspam.html</A> <P>In addition to keyword spamming, certain uses of brand names may constitute trademark infringement and could expose members to legal liability. More information about appropriate trademark usage in eBay listings can be found on this page:<BR> <A HREF="http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/png-trademark.html" TARGET=_blank>http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/png-trademark.html</A> <P>For a better understanding of our listing guidelines and how they affect the way you list your items, please visit the following URL:<BR> <A HREF="http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/png-list.html" TARGET=_blank>http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/png-list.html</A> <P>For information on infringing or illegal items, as well as information on other eBay listing guidelines, please visit the following URL:<BR> <A HREF="http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/png-items.html" TARGET=_blank>http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/png-items.html</A> <P>Future listings that demonstrate a pattern of violations may result in the termination of all of your listings, and repeated occurrences may jeopardize your eBay account status. We sincerely value you as a member of our trading community and look forward to a continued successful relationship. To ensure this relationship, we must respectfully ask that you abide by our guidelines and User Agreement in the future.<P>We thank you in advance for your cooperation.<P>Regards,<P>Raven (safeharbor@ebay.com)<BR>ord for it!

[Guest]

Perry, lets just agree to disagree on this one. I understand your point and see no reason to keep this up. I in no way mean to "waste" anyones time. I while ago I sold a part from a vintage motorcycle. I had no idea what it fit. I put in the title what it was and a number of motorcycle makes. In the ad I included about 30 years of dates "1940 1941 1942 1943 1944, etc. and more motorcycle names. This item ended up fitting a 1948 Indian Chief. It was VERY hard to find and went for over $400.00. Now, my goal just as yours is to get the most I can for the item. I sure think I did, but I also helped a guy finish his bike. A phone call was needed in this particular transaction, so I was able to speak personally with the guys secretary. She told me how he had a finished bike and that he only needed two parts to complete it. He had been searching for a very long time (during the restoration) for these two parts and was ecstatic to have finally found this one. <P>Now, I don't think for a minute that someone else who may have had a Henderson or Crocker motorcycle clicked on that ad and was made because I "wasted" their time. I am sure that if this item was that rare for the Indian, it would be even rarer if it would have been for a Crocker. So, if someone who needs one of these so bad for his Crocker would have came up with my ad, he would not have been "mad", he would have been disapointed. Or, for that matter, if someone found them selves looking at a list for Crocker parts and saw my ad title, if they didn't need that part they simply wouldn't have clicked on the ad, no "wasted" time there. <BR>I have a Ford Windstar van. I have a search "saved" using "Ford windstar" that eBay emails me when someone lists something with these "keywords" in it. I get an email a day on these ads. I scan the list of "Key fobs", "Bug screens" and "Xeion headlamp bulbs" and don't open a single ad. My time wasn't wasted (I know these are not spam, I am just using it as an example) I just go on with life. <P>The tit for tat argument we are having is now narrowed down to just whether eBay "knew" you had unrelated keywords, I say no. I just did a search on eBay for the word "Keywords" it gave me 9083 and "Key words" gave me 4090 ads. So, ebay would have to be specialists in EVERY item in those 13173 ads and read everyone to determan if someone needs to be warned about spamming, I just don't believe they would do that. <P>You see, as I have said, I have used "could fit" and the like along with the word "keywords" with many years and models too, I was only contacted by eBay the one time someone told me they were "turning me in". That is why I feel it is the reason you were contacted by them. <BR>I don't for one second feel that I am being dishonest for putting this "may fit" list in the ad, I would be telling the same thing to someone at a swap meet. That is how we look for things at a swap meet. We scan the thousands of items in the stalls very quickly looking for something that catches our eye, our time is not "wasted" by the 99.9% of parts that are "unrelated". It is up to the BUYER to decide if this part is worthy his time. That is the best part about ebay, you don't have to know the items exact use, or its value, the buyers will tell you. I have sold a number of items on eBay that I had no idea had such a large following of collectors (like vintage "freak show" photos) the BIDDERS told me how much they were worth. Being I honestly didn't know how to list these photos you can bet I used many, MANY keywords to be sure everyone who would be interested found that ad. Without these possible "unrelated" keywords, these collectors would have never found them because I didn't what they call these photos. <P>When I started selling on eBay I used to ask the buyer how he found the ad, you would be surprised how some people search for their items. I try to include as many opportunities in the ad for EVERYONE who could need the part to find it. <P>I once sold an NOS Delco battery. I KNEW it was made in 1968 and that it fit an "A" body, but that was it. I put in the ad every year it fit (1964-1969 as I remember) and every GM car name I could come up with as "possibles". It was one of the most active items I have ever sold, it brought $700.00!! And went to a new home in a 1965 SS 427 Impala. Now, I am sure that some of the names I used it was not the "correct" battery, in fact, I am still not sure it is the that '65 Impala, but a heck of a lot of other people didn't care. They had the choice to click on my title "NOS DELCO BATTERY CHEVY PONTIAC". I don't think for a second that I "wasted" anyones time that didn't fit into that ad perfectly. If I had posted it with only what I knew for sure, that guy with the Impala would have never found it, now that would have been a shame.<BR> <BR>I have as I said a 90% sell rate on eBay, I KNOW I have made many people happy to find the items they had been searching for. If I do "break" any eBay rules, you can bet there are many collecters out there that are VERY happy I did.<p>[ 06-09-2002: Message edited by: MARTINSR ]

[Guest]

Yes, Martin, I appreciate this post most of all!! You know what deep down I think bothers me most here? The fact that we do not have the right to face our accuser (if it is in fact a complaint, as you say). And ebay will take the word of someone who complains, without even hearing arguments to the contrary that the part IS related to the listed words! And if it were not a complainant, then Ebay makes the judgment without regard to contrary facts, as well! Again, it is their company, and of course they can run it as they wish.<BR>Thanks again for your input.

[86 2dr.ltd]

Perry and others I did not completely finish reading all posts on this topic but stoped somewhere after the link to the add in question. I'm behind Perry 100%, these people are out of touch and apparently clueless as to why the add was put as it was. Upon review it should have been a no brainer. <P>I cruise e-Bay under Delta 88, LeSabre, Riviera, and Toronado , occaisionly a few others when I'm bored. Imagine my surprise when after about a year of Delta 88 when I typed in eighty eight and found a whole new list of cars. I thought to myself about the poor folks that did not think to completely cover all bases to sell their item. Then there is the parts like the convertable tops and weather striping that fits all cars from an era that are say B body these guys cover all bases and rightfully so. I see their adds under both Delta 88 and LeSabre.<P>So Perry first I believe the uninformed clueless punk thats giving you the problem should be drawn and quartered then I believe that you should bite the bullet and do what is necessary to continue your e-Bay endeavors. Though I know it would be easier after a good public flogging of the ignorant subject. <P>Good luck and relax, I just got a seat belt ticket at the end of my road because I have no bussers and often forget. "Good bye hard earned paycheck for I know I am an unworthy criminal type!