Why was the CRT discontinued?

[Guest F14CRAZY]

A maybe not so simple question. Why did Buick decide to replace the EEC/CRT system with a more conventional, pushbutton setup? Sorry to you 1990+ Reatta owners, but a Reatta doesn't feel like a Reatta if it doesn't have the EEC (or is it ECC). It seems odd to me that they went to high tech and actually downgraded. I am a first time Reatta owner but it seems to me that the CRT setup is reliable and makes the vehicle feel more modern.

[Jim]

One of the reasons we were told was GM felt the CRT display would not show up very good in a convertible with the top down.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Hmmmm...didn't the Riviera also lose its CRT? And didn't the Trofeo also lose it? (it had a CRT, right?)

[reattadudes]

the main reason the CRT was discontinued was because of poor customer acceptance. just consider the average age of a person who purchased a GM E body(Seville, ElDorado, Toronado, Riviera, and Reatta). the total weighted average of these five cars was 62 years old.

to say that the computer age was in its infancy for the average American in 1988 is certainly an understatement. for many owners, the CRT was quite overwhelming. one thing I have always found interesting is the great discrepancy in the MPG on the CRT, and by figuring MPG the old fashioned way. on three 1988-1989 Reattas I have driven back from the east coast, the average MPG discrepancy was over 5 MPG, favoring the do-it-yourself method.

I certainly have a large choice of Reattas to drive here, and in spite of the many times I've tried to 'make peace' with the CRT, it just doesn't happen for me. I find it extremely distracting, as I am paying much more attention to it than my driving.

for example, I like having the page with the gauges ("gages" in GM terminology) on the screen all the time. if I want the radio on, and want to change a station...well, here we go. after half an hour, the radio gets turned off in frustration, and I drive in silence. that beeping every time I push a button drives me crazy, too. I realize that the infernal beeping can be programmed out, but how many people do this?

the CRT was also quite expensive to manufacture at the time, and when it was still available on a brand-new basis (not remanufactured) from the GM parts department, the list price was over $4,400.

then-GM president Roger Smith was quite enamoured was anything he perceived as "high tech" (as well as anything Japanese) at the time. remember, he is the guy who bought all the robot-painters from a Japanese company to put in the new factory that was building the then-new front drive Cadillacs. the robots ended up painting each other, and leaving the cars rolling by unpainted. they also had other robots installing windshields; they could not see dark colored cars, so they just dropped the windshields on the cars instead. the most humorous thing about all this is not a single Japanese auto manufacturer would buy these robots at this time, as they felt they were unproven. thanks, Roger.

at this point, I'm sure my comments may have brought some blood pressures up more than a few points, which was certainly not my intention. I think you become used to whichever dash your first Reatta has. of course, ours was a 1990, and this is perhaps why I feel this way.

I certainly can't say that the CRT wasn't way ahead of its time; touch-screens are starting to show up everywhere, even at ATMs. what is really amazing about the automotive appications is the incredible reliability of them. cold, heat, humidity, bumps...and they keep working perfectly for many thousands of hours.

as a sidenote, the Toronado CRT was quite a bit different than the Reatta/Riviera CRT. the Toronado was in full color, and had even MORE (!) functions than the Buicks.

Mike

[padgett]

Maybe Roger was influenced by the "Cannonball Run" (1981) particularly the Mitsubishi driven by Jackie Chan.

If I ever get the time, I still have plans to reprogram the BCM in my 88 to display oil pressure and coolant temp using the digits currently displaying the odometer on the IPC. Then it will not matter which scream the CRT is on. My problem is still a lack of time though have amassed over 100 MB of data.

If you commonly keep your display on the guages, you are evidently in the minority. Over time the phosphor on the CRT "burns in" and every one I have looked at has shown the default display. Guess most Buick owners rely on the idiot lights.

BTW every F-16 and F-22 has "sunlight readable" displays and that means direct sun through a bubble canopy and readable with the visor down. I suspect they cost less than $4k.

This pattern of introducing a car with all of the bells and whistles then slowly decontenting it is nothing new for GM, it allows keeping the price stable while increasing the profit. If "sunlight readable" was such a problem, why is the dash in a 90-91 still digital ? Rather it was to be able to share the radio, hvac, seat, mirror, etc controls with other BOP car lines. Electrically, they all look the same.

[Booreatta]

Mike I dont agree with you on this one, the CRT is the main

topic of conversation at car shows, when I am at a show with

a 90 or 91 they dont ask about the dash set up but the 89 and 88

always gets the questions. Most people dont know about the car and

the touch screen sets it apart. In the long run I think that the crt models

will be the ones that everybody wants..If they ever want one?????

and that could be a long time from now

Just my 2 cents

[reattadudes]

as I had mentioned, my comments were not meant to upset anyone, but were a personal opinion. there is no question that the CRT has a certain novelty value, and that is why it was put in the Riviera and Reatta in the first place.

I still find it distracting and confusing.

please consider the following:

--I have the same television that I purchased in 1984, and it is the only television that I own. don't plan on buying a new one, too complicated. when someone comes over, I do supply the binoculars to watch it.

I bought a DVD player a few weeks ago. when I got home and opened the 200 page book it came with, I just freaked out. I gave all of it as a gift to the trash man the following tuesday. the next week, he told me his eight year old grandson got it all hooked up, and it worked great. at least it went to a good home, and good riddance. why can't they make these things with an on, off, and play button, and that's it? a 200 page instruction manual for something that cost forty bucks?

--I was one of the last ten users of a Motorola "brick" phone on the Alltel network in the country. even though the bill was well over $1,000 per month, I continued to use the phone until they "pulled the plug" in July, 2000. I am happy to report that I have finally found someone who can digitize my beloved "brick", and I should have it back in about sixty days. I love the size of the phone (just hate tiny phones) and it puts out almost ten times the power of the tiny phones, too.

the cell phone I presently have is just that, a phone. it rings like a phone (no theme from "Rocky", or the latest from 50 cent) and there is not a single number programmed in (too complicated). I prefer to remember all the numbers, and I have memorized over 200 of them. helps to keep the brain from turning to mush.

--my 1999 Cadillac has a CD changer in the trunk. when I purchased it new in 1999, the dealer loaded my CDs in the changer for me. guess what? the same ones are still in there!

of course, one of the main reasons I love this car so much, and have kept it so long is that it was designed for someone 80 years old. big buttons, big knobs, and simple, simple, simple. except for the CD changer.

--I hadn't touched a computer in my life until October 7, 2001. my computer skills are probably easily bested by a second grader, but that's OK with me. (links? photos? please!) by the way, my computer still has the original screen it came with, which my friends say is the equivilent of buying a picture frame and keeping the picture it came with. this doesn't bother me, either.

each one of us has certain things we love and excel at, and things that we would rather forget about. gadgets, computers, and technology certainly fall in the latter category for me.

if I could still get a dial radio in a car, I'd have one.

Mike

[padgett]

Guess I come from the other end of the spectrum. Played my first computer game in 1957 and they have been an integral part of my lfe since.

There are two TVs upstairs and two (larger) downstairs with ability to make sense out of almost any media and from any region, PAL, SECAM, or NTSC. Have two UHF controlled (from any room) satellite receivers and two dishes - one dual, one single) in attic. Of course I watch mostly old movies and the BBC (why we got the satellite stuff in the first place). Occasionally it is good to just veg out (Godzilla and Mothra were on last night).

To me, cars before digitally controlled FI had poorly controlled leaks, that had changed little in 80 years (I was running port injection in 1970 but had nowhere near the control possible now). Incidently pulse-width-modulation was a feature of afterburning gas turbine engines in the '60s.

Must admit though that have also felt that the piston/rod/crankshaft method of developing power is not the One True Answer (that has been in use since the eighteenth century), but is easy. Have wondered what could be done with standing waves, choked flow, and a CVT.

Do think the CRT cars will ultimately eclipse the later (and decontented - ducking) ones simply because they were so complex for their time.

[Booreatta]

Mike I just wanted you to know that I was not upset at

all about your comments, the info you supply to this forum

is always right on, however the touch screen in my opinion

is what the new market will be looking for. You have been in

the car business for some time and you know that the overseas market

for this car has yet to develop. Due to the fact that in most countrys

that have right hand drive cars wont allow the import of left hand drive

till they are around 20 years old, and to my knowledge there were not

left hand Reattas made, then there is an overseas market yet to come. I think

that some of the good cars that remain will leave the states and go into private

collections abroad and the touch screen will be what they are looking for, it sets the cars apart. I would not go so far as to say which one is better or worse, its just the way that I have seen the markets go for the past 20 years.

There are a lot of American cars that will go overseas in the next few years, look at the Mustang and the GTO. There are tons of them leaving our shores daily. It is a market that very few people look at, because people overseas keep it quiet. I know of 3 cars that went overseas just this past week.

and that is just my 2 cents

Chuck

[reattadudes]

Chuck,

the Reatta was actually sold abroad when it was new. we have (or had) just under 300 customers in Europe and the Middle East.

unfortunately, the present political climate abroad caused by our administration has changed all this dramatically. this is certainly not something I would have brought up without question or reason, but its a cold, hard, fact. it not only affects us, but almost anyone who sells anything internationally.

we have now had eleven customers in Europe who have had their Reattas destroyed by extremely malicious vandalism, either by beating the car into an unrecognzable shape, or setting it on fire. the last one happened in Dusseldorf, Germany, last thursday. all were related to the rampant anti-American attitude which exists worldwide today. please remember, the vast majority of our European customers who own a Reatta also have another American vehicle in their garage. or did. many are afraid to drive them at all, or have gotten rid of them. this is certainly not confined to one particular country; it has happened in France, Germany, Belgium, Austria, and Switzerland.

we don't sell any parts for a car that is locked in a garage, and never driven.

in the Middle East, the situation is bad, too. four of our best GM dealers had always been in the Middle East; no more. the parts guys were great people, and we met all of them when they were here in the US for GM training last year. as everyone probably is aware, the Middle East has consistently been the best export market for American vehicles for over eighty years. that's all history now.

I still vividly remember the Kuaitis escaping from the Iraquis during Desert Storm in 1990 across the sand dunes in their Chevrolet Suburbans; no more. now, they are either Toyotas or Land Rovers. I still talk to the parts guys; they have plenty of time to talk now. most of the Middle Eastern GM dealers were selling between 50-100 GM cars per month; one dealer in the U.A.E. said they sold two in October.

we have seen our business drop by about 28% since the middle of last year, all related to the Europe/Middle East situation. we are quite lucky, as many companies which depended strictly on their international business are now out of business. thankfully, this year, our US/Canadian new business has started to take up some of the slack.

this is not a political statement; just a cold, hard fact. its just really hard to get awakened in the middle of the night by a sobbing Reatta owner half a world away. I never want it to happen again.

Mike

[Guest imported_Fox W.]

Damn, thats really a shame!!

As far as the CRT, since i'm a big computer fan I love the CONCEPT, but I simply think the times were not ready, on the other hand the 80's were when engineers seemed to do a lot of these interesting attempts, but the technology just wasn't time-tested, and the bugs that were not yet worked out gave it a bad reputation. First bad move is putting this into a car that typically is marketed for an older audience. Also a car isn't a great place for a CRT, today LCD would certainly have been used instead. I find it pretty amazing that the CRT in my 89 still works at all when you consider all the vibration and use it has taken. For me I almost always have the gauges screen on when not turning on/off the radio or adjusting the temp. For me it's not an issue to miss out seeing the gauges for 5sec while I use other functions.. Also turning off the screens annoying beeps takes 3 seconds.. I have to do this each time my battery is disconnected for a mechanical repair. But the world is full of opinions, to each his own. Personally I love the idea of altering the data on the CRTC or BCM, or writing software that could do the job of the CRTC and having a regular PC replace it, that would let you use a LCD screen as well as run any software (such as navigational) If anyone has access to the CRTC's source code or understands the CRT's video signal let me know!

[Guest F14CRAZY]

This discussion has got pretty interesting. I love my CRT because of its high tech feel, it's unique-ness, and capabilities such as trip monitor (haven't tried yet) and diagnostic mode.

I also agree that it's amazing that a CRT monitor could last this long in such a tough environment. A lot of TVs don't last that long in climate controlled, dry, vibration free homes. And, it doesn't seem that these CRTs are getting dim or anything. They sometimes die, but oh well I suppose. They can be rebuilt after all.

And how the heck did Zenith get so bad that it had to be sell out to LG?

[Guest DTerry]

No offense intended to the 90 and 91 owners, but the touch screen is what makes the 88 and 89 unique. Without it, it's still a great little car, but the crt is the item that gets everyone's attention. Yes, it's distracting, but no more so than any modern automobile radio. My wife's Explorer radio has 20 buttons and knobs, 13 of which are dual function. I have to put on my glasses and read the labels to operate the radio. We have 4 vehicles and every radio is totally different, so no habit patterns. Yeah, it would be nice to have the engine instruments visible all the time, but who monitors them constantly anyway? That's paranoia - "if something hasn't gone wrong yet, it's about to". (just kidding!) And...I can read the CRT without my glasses (I'm an old guy).

[Guest tomt]

Had an interesting discussion with an old Buick dealer who took an interest in talking about the Reatta. He was new when the Reatta was in showrooms, and commented that a salesman could not take the time to explain how the screen worked to many Buick type customers due to the margin on the car. That margin also would not allow him to spend time with someone who was truly interested.

[reattadudes]

that salesman must have been smokin' something, because the margin on the car was 21%, one of the highest of any GM car.

Mike

[padgett]

The Reatta CRT is closer to a military HUD than a commercial TV, is much more rugged than you would think - it has to be to be "sunlight readable" (try using a laptop in the car on a sunny day). Is not the same thing at all.

Still, every CRT I have removed the touchscrean from has had the default screen burned into the phosphor - can even usually read the radio settings.

BTW when junqueing, do not pass by the CRTs with a bad touchscreen surface. The touchscreen is just screwed to the front of the CRT, is easily removable/replaceable, and rarely fails.

[Reatta4Real]

Your right Padgett. For an electronic product, mine has been very reliable. I am the second owner, no records of problems from the first owner, and no problems since I have had the car (knock on wood). It is a "computer," once you get used to it I think it's just as easy to use as knobs and such. When driving I rarley switch screens, temp, radio, etc. is all on one screen. I love the CRT.

[Guest imported_Flash]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">........the margin on the car was 21%, one of the highest of any GM car.

Mike </div></div>

That explains why the dealer was so eager to give me a "deal" on my '85 LeSabre Collector's Edition 2 door with less than 9,000 miles and the custom car cover in the trunk. That particular LeSabre had more options than most Park Avenues including the turn signal indicators mounted on top of the front fenders, a 4 note horn, illuminated key locks, Landau top, leather, V8, and one of the best sound systems I have ever had, etc, etc, etc. Ordered that car specificaly. The dealer had 3 buyers for it before I left the lot.

But....my Reatta I still drive, some 16 years later.

[Guest Greg Ross]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> But....my Reatta I still drive, some 16 years later. </div></div>

Flash, I've only had mine for 8 years, does that, like, make me half your age?

Other Threads concerning up-grades and enhancements, one of the core issues for me when I went exploring a manual tranny and supercharging was;

Can I keep the CRT and Diagnostics. Retaining these functions are to me core to the Reatta. I get a great kick out of anyone new showing interest in the car, they have never seen a Touchscreen before. Apparently the hundreds of thousands of Rivs', Trofeos, Caddys' that also used this technology in '87 to'89 must have been only owned and driven by Aliens!

And, the substantial savings by not having to pay $45. to .75. to have a Scan Tool check-up.

[padgett]

Of course what would really be phun would be to drop in a Trofeo colour display. You don't suppose GM used the same data stream for both ? Can recognize the same subroutines in an early 80s C3 computer as a '90s P4 so General is big on reuse. Something else interesting to try...