Leveling system ?

[Guest]

I would like to know why the car sits lower in the rear and high in the front

i have the system disconected and i want it to sit low all the way around how would

i go about making the car sit level and making it a little lower then it sits

now?Right now its like a truck in the front and real low in the back i wish it sat

low all the way around, I know i asked the question before but i dont understand the seesaw affect it has on the car i satnd on the back bumper it goes down the front goes up stand on the front bumper the front goes down the rear goes up what is this is there anyway i can make the front stay down while the back stays down too... <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[Guest Randy Berger]

To lower the car all the way around you would need to install smaller (in length) front load arm link assy, OR buy from Craig H his adjustable link. As you shorten the front link the whole car will ride lower which may be detrimental to the ride.

Think of it as a see-saw, when you push down on one end, the other will go up. If you lower the height of the see-saw pivot, the whole board will come down, but you won't get as good a ride. The only way of lowering the pivot is to install shorter links or adjustable ones.

YFAM, Randy Berger

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

The see-saw effect is exactly the way the suspension IS designed to operate. To lower the car overall change the front load arm links like Randy said. Look at the front suspension. There will be a verticle rod about 7 inches long rising streight up from the lower control arm on each side of the car. this is the load arm link. Count the grooved rings in the link on each side and report back. What size tires???

[Guest]

My tires are stock size...The benfit of me lowering my car is i would like to see

it a little lower all the way around plus sit level..Also not that you guys

would like what i have planned for the car its the way i want it to sit.These

cars sit like mack trucks i cant even touch the center of the roof

so thats why i want it a little lower..Plus it gives it a mean look to it.

[6219_Rules]

I can see that...but one of the things I love about my '47 is that it sits high. I can see the entire road and still be at basic road level, unlike my old Dodge 4x4 where I sat even higher. That car will be a real killer when you get it the way you like it. I am looking forward to seeing some pictures of it sometime, G. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

sorry I have no technical help to offer...just wanted to put in my two cents.

[Guest]

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/download.php?Number=246412

try this link to see what i have in mind

[52deluxe]

i have lowerd my 52 2" in the front and 3" in the rear. i noticed a fairly big difference in handling. driving these cars is just like driving a boat as they pitch and weave. by lowering your car you will have a better center of gravity and the car will handle better. you might also consider adding swaybars to keep the car from leaning so far in the corners this will also help keep you from "scuffing" your fenders in a hard corner. kanter offers a heavy duty swaybar kit fairly cheap for the front and rear. once you have the car sitting the way you want get a alignment at your local tire shop and consider making some sort of skid plates for the oilpan and transmission "just in case"

just something to think about

tom

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(snip'd link) try this link to see what i have in mind </div></div>

Yup, looks way cool, if you like that look.

The [color:"red"] ONLY way to get it that low and [color:"red"] LEVEL is to change the length of the front link. Send me your front links (easier said than done) and I can make them any length you want.

I'm doing a set right now for KevinAZ's 1955 400.

Here's an image of the mod:

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

the gold and white 55 clipper in the link u provided is using a set of those very narrow side wall tires which probably drops the car a good 2 inches. I am running 235-75R15's on my 56 Executive and they are about 1.25 inches smaller diameter than the stock tires thus dropping the car a little over 1/2 inch. Even at this small amount of drop i notice a slight understeer going into a curve as well as a slight oversteer comming out of the curve. Dropping the car is just fine if u do NOT plan to run much high speed with the car. If u will be using the car for open hiway or interstate use u need to avoid lowering by any more than one inch by any of the ez methods.

[Jack Harlin]

Wont shortning front link, even shorter than a one ring factory one, bottom out in front with so little travel. With passengers extra weight, also add to the problem, driving over dips in roads, driveway drainage ditches etc. Mine has the 3 ring links and under some conditions it will bottom out, pushing it a bit on some older roads. with new heavy duty gas shocks. Double shocks may help but then the ride would suffer. Jack

[6219_Rules]

Brian, what the heck is a "Chebbie"? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

First off let me say that car is PHOTOSHOPPED,by a member of the jalopyjournal

it isnt a real car i sent him a picture of a 55 clipper told him what color's i wanted and what type hubcaps, and he lowered it by computer. I want my car to sit low but not that low...Now how do i take thoses links out and were are they and how hard are they to be re-moved and by that modifaction how much lower with it sit..Also will the mod lower tha back too... Thanks...G

[Guest Randy Berger]

G, you don't remove the links, you replace them with shorter ones. I believe your best bet to accomplish this would be to install Craig's adjustable links.

Memory says that for every 1/2" less on the link the car will sit 3/8" lower overall. The links come in 1/2" differences. If you started with a four-ring link the most you could lower it would be 1 1/2" (4 times 3/8). Craig's adjustables theoretically will give you more movement. How many rings are on your existing links? They are found rising upward from the lower A-frame to the load-arm, running parralel to the front shock. Since you obviously do not have a shop manual, visit Craig's website to see how to remove/replace them.

YFAM, Randy Berger

[55PackardGuy]

Yeah, as the "v" is pronounced "b" in Spanish, Latino Low-Riders used to refer to their "Chebbies" and "Ribbies" (Rivieras). Dig out an old "Cheech and Chong" album sometime.

I'm a little confused about the controversy over lowering a T/L suspension. As I recall, one of the attributes of this suspension was that it was nearly impossible to "bottom" it even over huge bumps in its stock form, so would a little less suspension travel be all that bad? Also, G's55 has disconnected the leveling system, which means the car can't find its center. Maybe he can find a "stance" that suits him by simply using a manual override to select the relative front-to-back height. It sounds like the rear is settling down due to lack of leveling action... I remember going out to the garage and finding our '55 squatting or riding high in the back when the leveler was on the fritz. These cars don't look good dragging their tail. As I recall G's55 has been "converted" to negative ground. Might this also affect the operation of the leveling system?

[Jack Harlin]

You are correct when they were new they didnt have a problem. As I recall there were two suppliers of torsion bars. Could there be a difference between them? After all these years with weight on the bars, whos to say some of them havent lost strength and have settled. I do know mine has 3 rings on the links, & it sits lower than any of the other many I have owned. The ride is softer than I remember others were, but been a long time. Some time ago when Craig looked into & what he has come up with, measurements at the rocker panels were given & mine is 7/8" lower than others???? Car sits level, side to side, so lowering 7/8" from others I think is why it will bottom out a few times, depending on road & how fast its being driven. I want a pr of Craigs invention links to raise mine & eliminate front end from bottoming. Im not in position right now to get into it. I do thank Craig for engineering the adj. links. Jack

[55PackardGuy]

Ah yes, things which once had "spring" in them can sag eventually. Like my step, my waist, etc. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Were on Craig's website does it tell you how to remove the T/L links

And does anyone or (Craig) know what he gets for a set...and what has to be done to get them....??????

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Were on Craig's website does it tell you how to remove the T/L links

And does anyone or (Craig) know what he gets for a set...and what has to be done to get them....?????? </div></div>

Here are the web pages explaining the T-L:

Torsion-Level, how does it work?

Here is the explanation about removing the link:

See April 5, 2001

Or you can get Packard tool J-6065 and remove the link per the service manual.

Once you get the links out, I can modify them to make them adjustable. Your [color:"red"] original links must be modified; I don't have any extras. The cost is about $100/pair plus shipping. Your car will be down while this is being done.

While on the subject of ride height, Packard-buddy Paul in Vegas swapped his main torsion bars right-left with the idea of reversing the twist and restoring the ride height to original. His 1956 Exec is still in the middle of resto, so we don't know how well this will work. It's also a lot of work and you need special tools, so it's only for the few willing to tackle it.

[55PackardGuy]

Craig,

Yeah, willing and brave enough. I have a vivid memory of how much tension is on the main bars. Brace yourself, because the following will make everyone wince: When we parted out a '55 Clipper, my dad decided the torsion bars were such nice pieces of spring steel that he wanted to use them elsewhere, so he CUT them out with a torch. Man, when those bars let go... SPROING! I still wish he'd kept that rolling chassis complete for a future project. His only comment: "How would you like one of them to let go like that while you were driving down the road?"

[WCraigH]

Yup, if the main bars are fully loaded, there's a lot of stored energy there.

But, to remove the main bars, you need to remove the windup. This entails removing the front link and letting the front torque arm rest against the lower control arm. Then the rear torque arm can be removed from it's stirrup with a little pressure from a floor jack if the rear axle is unloaded, i.e., is hanging down supported by the shocks and S-bar so it is not supporting the weight of the car.

I will remove the main bars from my Panther so I can disassemble and clean the needle bearings in the torque arm pivots. I won't switch them side to side because the ride height was OK when I took everything apart. And I have adjustable front links for it. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Can i try to lower the existing T/L link set up i have now

and how much will that lower the car? Also how hard is it to spin

the T/L links and what do you use to adjust them?

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can i try to lower the existing T/L link set up i have now</div></div>

No, they are fixed length. Unless you're a really good welder AND know before hand exactly what length you want, you need the adjustable mod.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and how much will that lower the car?</div></div>

As much as you want until the rubber bumpers hit.

It turns out that you can't adjust the links when they're loaded. They need to be unloaded and then the adjustment is easy with hand tools. By the time you get them out the first time, doing it again to fine adjust will be easy. Plus you can get them pretty darn close using Randy's formula posted above.

Setting the static ride height does [color:"red"] NOT affect the leveler. But, on the other hand, if the leveler is not working or misadjusted, then that's a separate issue.

[bernardi]

Craig -

I'm trying to copy and save your comment and the picture of the torsion level front link. How can I get them both in a folder in the same file?

Thanks for the help.

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Craig -

I'm trying to copy and save your comment and the picture of the torsion level front link. How can I get them both in a folder in the same file?

Thanks for the help.</div></div>

If you are using IE, just click on "FILE" --> "Save As..." and pick a folder. It'll copy everything there.

To view it later, use Windoz Explorer or equivalent, navigate to that folder and click on "Collectible Auto Discussion Forum" (.htm).

[Guest]

Ok so how do you unload the suspension to adjust the T/L links

and what tools do i need?... <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

I dont know were in his pages to find the way to do this step by step

And i would like to get one of the manuals, were do i find them?

[52deluxe]

kanter sells them link or 1-800-526-1096 from 8:30-8:00 pm eastern time. they are reprints of the original, yours would be 55.00. i would also suggest getting a parts book as well, this would give you part numbers for everypart on your car and makes finding parts easier. the parts manuals cost 40.00 from kanter as well.

[Guest]

Kool <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />I live 10 minutes away from Kanter's so i will be getting

the books i need!!!!

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dont know were in his pages to find the way to do this step by step

</div></div>

For things in the service manual, there is no step-by-step on my website because that would be redundant.

[Guest]

I will let you know what i think of the books, I'm going to be calling Kanters on monday to order them..So when i get them i'll be leting you know what i find to be good and helpful..Thanks "G"....

[Guest AlK]

with regard to the aforementioned cutoff switch. Was that an option?The 55 pat that we bought in Dayton two years ago(thanks to my good friend(?) RO), seems to be sans this switch. I find no cut wires or loose wires etc. It has now been fully upholstered(in black and red vinyl, 400 style) and I now have to re-assemble the beast(now the fun begins). I will take some digitals and send them to RO to post for me.

[Guest Randy Berger]

Al, the cutoff switch is located just to the left of the emergency brake handle. If it is not there look up underneath the dash to see if the switch has lost its mounting ring and retreated up under the dash (you should find the mounting hole in any case). It is a plastic toggle switch with two light green wires plugged into it. The wires have douglas connectors on their ends.

YFAM, Randy Berger

[Guest Randy Berger]

Brian, I had Marvin King tell me that an antenna switch was standard

equipment on his 56 Caribbean to do that job. Even the guys who are supposed to know - don't.

The one neat feature of the genuine Packard switch is that it automatically shuts off the normal TL circuit. If you rig up your own switches you have to remember to shut off the normal TL when using the manual control.

YFAM, Randy Berger

[Guest]

Randy,

My 56 400 has an antenna switch to manually control the T/L system. I figured a previous owner jerry rigged it. Are you saying it might have come that way from the factory?

[Guest Randy Berger]

Larry, No, I am saying that Marvin believed that, but I can see no evidence via TSBs, SCs or any other source that Packard used anything but the COLEs switch that they included in the kit.

YFAM, Randy Berger

[Guest Randy Berger]

Brian, I have an original harness I acquired after I made one including the proper color codes and douglas connectors. I would be glad to post the measurements for anyone who wants it. Douglas connectors are hard to find but those bullets they normally sell at auto parts will do nicely. I also have a tap that will make the nut the proper thread. I purchased that when adapting the switch to my "secret" location. I bought two switches from Max Merritt when they were $10.00 a piece. After Max found out what they were He jumped the price. It is a COLEs switch. I think they were located in Buffalo NY.

Yes I modified the switch to be a center return because someone who had installed one per Packard instructions said that pulling/pushing the switch back to center was a little touchy and they would sometimes go beyond center and apply power to the TL motor reversing it while it was still coasting in the first direction. Made sense to me so I modified switch to be spring-loaded. I do use the switch a great deal - mainly for demos at the local cruises - never fails to amaze the spectators. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I would also be glad to tap a retaining nut for anyone who asked. You can get these type of slim retaining nuts at electronic supply houses, perhaps in the right thread size.

YFAM, Randy Berger

[55PackardGuy]

The switch for manual overrride was added to our '55 Clipper. It was a metal toggle and had a center return, so it could not be left "on" in either up or down mode. As I recall, pulling the switch toward you raised the back and lowered the front, pushing away was, of course, opposite. It was put in because the automatic switch in the leveling unit would get stuck, usually raising the back all the way up and leaving it there. I'm not sure if the switch was part of a kit, or a home design, but it worked very well. Highly recommended, as you are not dependent on the proper operation of the automatic switch... "G" take note! This is the high-percentage solution to your body "stance" situation.

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The switch for manual overrride was added to our '55 Clipper. (snip) </div></div>

Ditto on my 55 Pat, but I did that one myself. It's very easy to wire, just make sure to use a spring loaded "center-off" double throw switch. You should drill another hole in the underdash next to the stock On/Off switch to mount it.

Also, as Randy said above, manual override will "wow 'em" at the car shows!

[Guest]

If i had the leveling system disconnected wont the car just sit there

and if i hook it up again can i get the car lower then it sits now.

[Guest]

Sounds to me as if it would pay you to get a non-torsion suspension car from the period to do what you want it to do. The Packard with T/L would take an incredible amount of work to get it lowered as dramatically as you envision. If you have access to one, take a look at the summer issue (2003) of the Packard Cormorant to see a very interesting article about a fellow who lowered a 1952 Packard 250 convertible 3" by sectioning that amount out of the body all around, cutting and rejoining fenders, doors, door jambs, support posts, grill and rear sections. Quite an ordeal. Packards thru 1956 were still very "high Pockets" in style even tho they did lots of things to try and trick the eye into making them look lower. I'd think you'd have better luck with an Olds, Buick, or Pontiac of the period. Good luck, tho in what ever you do.