Constellation Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 Packard V-8 and RO,That pump looks like the 1955 and 56 Nash, Hudson and Studebaker GH version of the Packard V-8 oil pump. It would be nice to get Mano to join us.Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 8, 2003 Author Share Posted August 8, 2003 I'll send Mano the link tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 PackardV8:For everyone's edification, here's the modified oil pump to be installed in the Panther: Panther Oil Pump The vac pump has been replaced with a 1/4" mild steel plate. It does NOT have any lower bushing based on my experience with Pontiac high performance oil pumps which are similar and do not use that design. It does have the late 1956 oil pressure spring retained by a gland plug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 One other thing to check is the oil Filter, as it is not a full flow, so any oil the goes through it will be lost pressure, maybe use a smaller orface to the oil filter. Has any one ever tried to install an external oil pump like the race engines use, off the front through a timing belt, then a full flow oil filter could be used. Try plugging off the oil filter line and see what pressure you get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 Craig, just for S&G, what is the height of the Pontiac gears? In examining the Packard gears, I note they seem very tall as compared to Buick/Cad/Olds and I think that is part of the problem. The oil being squeezed by the gears has a much larger area to exert hydraulic force upon and that compounds the sideways strain placed upon the driving shaft and creates the "wobble" developed in wearing the casting. If the shaft were supported at both ends of the gear, much of that force would be negated.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 9, 2003 Author Share Posted August 9, 2003 In my particular on going battle, the pressure with or without the filter in the system was almost identical. I had a pressure gauge at the back of the engine and one in place of the filter, and the two gauges read within 2-3 psi of each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Randy: re: length of Pontiac oil pump gears. I have no idea and I don't have a Pontiac oil pump anymore, although I am still in contact with some guys who do, if that becomes necessary. However, because of the "captured cage" design of these gears, wobble on the non-driven end seems mimimal. Also, Pontiac main (and maybe rod) journals are bigger diameter than Packard. This requires more pressure, hence more "stress" on the gears. For instance, the 1969 400 Ram Air V (3.000" main) and 1973-74 455 Super Duty (3.250" main) oil pump has a nominal 80psi pressure spring, but would put out over 100 psi when the oil was cold. This caused some brands of spin-on oil filters to split and blow oil all over the place. These pumps did NOT used a captured non-driven end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Albert: re: full flow oil filter. PackardV8 and I are working on a conversion for the Packard V-8. I won't say more at this time except that my Panther engine will be the guinea pig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_48DLX Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Wow, if I had ever entertained any thoughts of getting a V-8 Packard, this thread has changed my mind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6219_Rules Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Well I would have to admit that 48DLX has something there. At least we can agree that Packards are cars for the entusiast and specialist. There is a love connection with the car that may not be shared with other marques. I feel that way about Cadillacs. I know they are Big Corporate products, but I love them. There is just something about them so I can understand the attraction of the last of the great independant marques. I thought of one myself but decided against it for a variety of logical reasons. Still they are attractive cars, especially the late 40s and the 56. I like it particularly. I really look forward to seeing the Panther Project come to fruition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 48dlx, yes that's true - if you don't feel competent to work on a complex vehicle, you want to stay away from this vehicle that has suffered through 45 years of backyard mechanics and gas station wrench-turners because the dealerships and their trained mechanics no longer existed. I have seen wires cut through because simpletons couldn't read a schematic, or worse yet couldn't find one and hacked away anyway. I've seen mufflers and pipes from other makes "made" to fit. I've watched adjustments made to the automatic transmission when they didn't have a manual. I've had parts counter-people tell me "Champion never made a plug with that number". In spite of a lot of neer-do-wells and genuine idiots getting their hands on these cars because their value dropped when Packard went out of business, a great many of them have survived. Now in addition to restoring the car, we have to correct the mistakes made over these past 45 years and some original faults that didn't show up till many thousands of miles had been accumulated. You are correct - it is not for the faint of heart. But come take a ride with me some day - I promise to stay just under a hundred <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Randy: Well said!Nothing like a V-8 Packard. I'm going to let you guys in on a little secret:In Nevada, there's an annual race know as the "Silver State Classic". I attended the one in 1989 wherein a Keith Black equipped 1969 Camaro driven by a 19 year old kid [color:"red"] AVERAGED 1998 MPH. Top speed was [color:"red"] 225 . My Packard buddy here in Las Vegas (Paul) and I might attend this race and put our restored Packards to the [color:"red"] test . We expect to run about 145MPH top speed. We'll do this to get publicity for the 1955-56 Packard V-8. It should be a hoot. This is a legitimate deal, here's the URL: Drive as fast as you can on a public highway! If there's much posting on this topic, I'll move it to a new topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
56clipper Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 I ran out to my garage and measured the new base plate on my redesigned Packards International oil pump. It comes in at just under 1/2 inch (7/16 in, to be exact). Here's a photo of it, you might have to wait for PeterG to approve it. Oil Pump Base Of course, after this thread maybe it'll just go back up on the shelf. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Not sure that I want to do this project any more! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 9, 2003 Author Share Posted August 9, 2003 Not good. Flywheel cover off the troublesome '56 CC and when I removed the oil pan, I found grit in the bottom-most portion. Not sure what it is yet. Haven't checked to see if it will stick to a magnet. But not more than 20 miles were driven with the replacement oil pump, a cleaned oil pan, and all new oil. Not putting the new oil pump in until I return this one to Aller and he checks it out...sometime next week. But the grit cannot be a good sign at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 RO, pull your oil filter and check the residue carefully to see if any grit has been trapped there.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 9, 2003 Author Share Posted August 9, 2003 I'll do that tomorrow, Randy. Of course I did not drive it without the filter, but I did run it a few moments with no filter because I had the extra pressure gauge set up there. I'll find out tomorrow if it is metal or non-metal. I'm waiting for the little tablespoon or so of oil in the pan to drain off the grit so I can exmaine it more closely. I'll check the filter out as well and it is a new filter with the oil canister wiped out clean before I installed it. I'm going to post a couple photos tonight or tomorrow taken under the car of the oil pump and underside of the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 9, 2003 Author Share Posted August 9, 2003 I went ahead and pulled the top off the filter canister and there is gritty residue there as well. There was not any residue on the previous filter that could have been there 7 or 8 years or perhaps less than a year, but the top was free of residue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 9, 2003 Author Share Posted August 9, 2003 The sandy grit is not magnetic in either the pan or on top of the filter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 9, 2003 Author Share Posted August 9, 2003 Photos later, not that you'll be able to tell anything from them, but it will show "true grit". The filter has 61 miles on it; the oil pan was thoroughly cleaned and the car driven twice to a total of less than 20 miles. Other than changing the oil, the filter, the pan gasket, and the oil pump, nothing else changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 RO, you probably know this, but just touching bases - there is a sort of pedestal sitting at the bottom of the filter canister which keeps the filter off the bottom and it slides up the center shaft so that you can clean up with a rag any sediment that was trapped uderneath it. Don't forget (like me) to put it back!YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 10, 2003 Author Share Posted August 10, 2003 Thanks for the reminder Randy. I will suck the oil out of the canister tomorrow and check out the bottom. Will try to examine more closely what the grit might be. If it were metallic, I would suspect the pump since nothing else has been changed or altered. Only seen this one other time in my Patrician years ago it happened only once on top of the filter and I never knew what it was. If it is non metallic, gaskets material is all I can think of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 could be carbon deposits. Especialy if the valve guides are worn. It blows out of combustion chamber area on up thru the guides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 10, 2003 Author Share Posted August 10, 2003 None of it is attracted to a magnet. Most appears grayish/black color, very tiny spheres (photos still not available)about the size of a grain of brown sugar but found a couple turquoise paint flakes on the top of the filter as well as "some" red gasket maker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 11, 2003 Author Share Posted August 11, 2003 Grit in the oil panhttp://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2685 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 11, 2003 Author Share Posted August 11, 2003 Grit on top of the oil filter http://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2684 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 11, 2003 Author Share Posted August 11, 2003 You can click on the photos once and enlarge them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 11, 2003 Author Share Posted August 11, 2003 Here's the pesky little oil pump installed.http://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2682 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 11, 2003 Author Share Posted August 11, 2003 Innocent looking enoughhttp://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2683 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 RO, did you check the valve pan covers before you fired the engine up with new oil pump? Thinking maybe grit/buildup from inside valve pan covers got washed out back into oil. Just a wild guess.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 11, 2003 Author Share Posted August 11, 2003 Good idea Randy, but, no, we have not had the valve covers off the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 13, 2003 Author Share Posted August 13, 2003 Able to contact the previous owner of this '56 CC, i.e., previous to the owner I bought it from, and small world...it seems the car came from up on the mountain above the city about 20 years ago and before that was further south down in the state. But it was bought back in the early 80s without and engine or tranny but an engine and tranny were pulled from another '56 and the engine rebuilt with new valves, rods, etc. but not main bearings. Should hear from Aller in the next day or two about the returned pump. Have the plastigauge ready to go to see if we get different results than the shim stock used previously that showed only about .0005" off on the clearance of the one rod bearing we checked. This previous owner indicate it drove great, quiet, shifted extremely smoothly for the 100 miles or so it was driven before being parked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 did the previous owner indicate WHY he parked it after driving it only 100 miles on a rebuilt engine????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 13, 2003 Author Share Posted August 13, 2003 Health problems including knees and back that prohibited him from working on it anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Brown Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 That's how I ended up with my Clipper. Bad hips and back did the last guy in. Lift with your knees . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 19, 2003 Author Share Posted August 19, 2003 It will be a couple of weeks before Aller checks the oil pump out; in the interim we checked the rod bearings tonight and found them from .002 to .004, so since we have some .003 and .004, we'll order new bearings set and replace them all. So much for "new bearings installed and then driven 100 miles"...that's some wear and tear. Who knows after a span of two decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Brown Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Something fishy with that. Maybe he drove the 100 miles with no oil in the crankcase. Would explain a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 I was driving a friends 55 Clipper on sunday when it stalled, when i went to restart it it made a funny metalic noise, so i walked back home a couple of blocks and grabbed another car. I tried turning the motor over with a johnson bar on the front, would not budge. so i figured i would pull the starter off and do a check of it, looks like the starter bendex did not kick back when the motor started and it spun all the armature wires out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 25, 2003 Author Share Posted August 25, 2003 No go! We still have dropping oil pressure. We got back to the oil pump and oil problem on the '56 and after installing all new rod bearings and the second rebuilt pump, fired the engine up. Oil pressure only came up to 35-40 psi maximum initially and then on the roas for about 2 miles was at 25, then 17-18, and by the time we got home (2 miles mind you) the pressure on the direct read gauge was hovering down near zero. Idiot light did not come on, but engine noisier than when first started and when first started there was NO indication of main bearings or rods noise. This has become frustrating. The reason I suspect perhaps a problem with the second pump is (no reading yet on the first rebuilt pump) is that I hooked up a reliable (100% reliable) vacuum gauge to the oil pump vacuum pump line and unlike the service manual which states "no less than 20" Hg," I get no more than 12-15" Hg at 1800-2200 RPM. Very disappointed in this vacuum gauge reading which could? effect the oil pressure to drop. But remember, first pump got 55 psi, second pump 45 psi, third pump 35-40 psi. Heading the wrong direction! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 RO: Do you want to join the re-engineering team (presently me & PackardV8) who are [color:"red"] significantly re-doing the oiling system on the V-8?Email me for details, so we don't clog up this thread with extraineous posts until we actually figure out what to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 25, 2003 Author Share Posted August 25, 2003 Still curious about the vacuum gauge reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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