RO Posted July 18, 2003 Author Share Posted July 18, 2003 Both pumps.http://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2454 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 18, 2003 Author Share Posted July 18, 2003 Oil pump measurementshttp://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2455 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 18, 2003 Author Share Posted July 18, 2003 Now this bothers me somewhat in the next two photos. See the measurements of the threads showing in th old pump versus the rebuilt; the # of threads of the tube to the filter. 4mm on the old vs. 8mm on the second or twice as many threads.http://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2456 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 18, 2003 Author Share Posted July 18, 2003 The last photo of the threads showing on the rebuilt pump.http://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2457 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constellation Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 RO,I suspect that the Suction Tube to the pump isn't tight. I'd check it. I know when I got mine (also bushed) from Max Merritt it was not tight. Take it out and Dope it up with some good Teflon Pipe Dope on the threads. A suction leak at the threads will cause air bubbles in the Oil. This will give you problems with Clacking Lifters and possible Bearing Failure. Make sure the Suction Tube is in the same position as the Old One.Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 18, 2003 Author Share Posted July 18, 2003 Re: before u install the pump BE SURE to measure the float against the pump body as outlined in the service manual. The service manual is not clear as to the position of the float while performing the measurement. Take a look at the service manual and u will see what i mean. Please let us know what u find on the measurement. The catch is that the manual does not indicate POSITION of float (up or down) while taking the measurement. One way will not allow for the pan to install. see fig.'s 77 and 78 in manual. Now just measuring the pump that came off the car (the cotter pin type) in the "nonfloating" bottom stop position it measures but about 3/8", not 3/4" but in the full up floating position it is over an inch. Have not measured the rebuilt pump yet, but it may be even less than 3/8" now as it stands. I haven't yet grasped the significance of that interface with getting the oil pan back on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 RO: It mite be difficult to determine the tightness or loosness based on the number of threads showing or not showing due to production variations especialy in the case of a thin walled sheet metal tube screwing into a thread casting. I will measure the thread on the 2wo pic-up tubes i have tomorrow morning and report back about noon. Also, the tube should screwed in tight enuf not to flop around BUT, sometimes this is done by feel. I'm sure Aller knows how to feel for it. At some certain tightness level the tightneing MUST STOP because one more turn can not be attained. Since i did not tighten it its difficult to say but i suppose Aller can be trusted at that level. U can maybe try moving it just a little bit to see how tight it is. This is one of those judgement call issues that require a hands-on situation to make a determination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 RO wrote:<<<<<<< haven't yet grasped the significance of that interface with getting the oil pan back on.>>>>>>>If the pick up tube is positioned too LOW then when u try to install the oil pan it will hit the bottom of the oil pan and prevent the pan from mating to the block. This is where the confusion of the manual comes into play.The FIRST time i removed my pump i noticed that there was little or no 'float' to the float in the way in which it was positioned. I could make no heads or tails of the manual so i set the float myself so that it is about 1/16 inch off the bottom of the pan. WHY have a float if it can not float?????Another problem to watch out for is dip stick interference with the float. I had to cut about 1/2 inch from the bottom of my dip stick to keep it from hitting the side of the float. I thing Packard Eng'ring had a problem with working out the details and just kept trying to fudge things a little one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 On the Aller pump, look or drag a piece of thin feeler gauge or something similar down the shaft DIRECTLY under the bottom edge of the flex collar. Does there seem to be RIDGE at that point????? What i am try to determine is if Aller is using a full 1/2 inch replacement shaft OR if he is using a factory spec shaft which measures 0.494 inch. I am suspicious (from the pics u posted above )that Aller is only pressing the bushing into to cylindrical locator sleeve and maybe not all the way into the pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 19, 2003 Author Share Posted July 19, 2003 OK, will try to check out what I can. We may try to get it all back together Sunday. But I'll try to examine the pump as closely as possible for the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JT Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 RO, seems like it might be a good idea to use a locking type thread sealant on the pickup tube connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 i measured 2wo different oil pump float tubes that i have. ON BOTH the thread length is 3/4 inch long. The tube that cam from my 56 Exec shows a stain pattern of 11/32 inch or just under 3/8 inch. So that means that at least 3/8 inch thread was showing and i am confident that it was an untouched factory installation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 i have a bare pump body and pickup tube /float assembley here at the house and at hand for reference if anything else comes up. I( probably wont be back in 'till late tonite or early next moring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 RO, if the float pipe is tightly screwed into the casting and the distance from the float to bottom of pump body is per the instructions in the shop manual, then IT IS correct. The amount of thread showing is irrelevant.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 19, 2003 Author Share Posted July 19, 2003 Randy, I believe we are ready for reinstallation (maybe tomorrow evening) soon as we do the bearing measurements if all is to spec. The tube is in tight, cannot seem to budge it without really getting on it. The card attached to it shows it was tested to (or produced) 45 psi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1956Packard Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 For what it is worth, I just got my pump back from Mr. Aller on Friday and I have 12+ mm of exposed thread on my pick up tube. I had mine re-built rather than exchanging it. (BTW, as I read the scale on RO's picture of the re-built pump there is 11+ mm of exposed threads (metric scale is on 'top', imperial is on 'bottom' -- am I wrong???)) I agree with Randy B. that the amount of thread is of little concern as long as it is tight and has the clearance. (question....would one really want to put pipe dope on these threads???) I believe a more crucial measurement is the angle that this pipe is finished at when done tightening. I have not checked the service manual but wonder if there is a specification note in there. Having said that, I'm comfortable with Mr. Aller's experience here as he's seen a lot more of these than I'm likely ever to.The tag on my pump said it produced 50 lbs. In talking to him, I understand he tests them in a vat of MMO before shipment. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 21, 2003 Author Share Posted July 21, 2003 We tackled getting the oil pump back on last night and had to adjust the float up slightly to get it to clear the pan bottom. We had to turn the engine as well as turn the wheels in order to drop the steering linkage even further down to get the durn oil pan on. Making a tool to get the front two bolts and the little metal cover plate on. This is an absurd design. A dip in the oil pan or two access holes through the front cross member piece would have made this job easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 21, 2003 Author Share Posted July 21, 2003 This oil pan ok on the bottom (curious though, on the INSIDE edge, it had been soldered, an area about the size of a silver dollar). We only adjusted it up about 1/4". We measured from the oil pan gasket to the bottom and came up about that much too long. Remembering what Keith had mentioned, we checked it. IF that 1/4" should pose a potential problem (not sure just how sensitive this issue is and how high the oil is at any one time in the pan bottom) since there have been a number of recommendations to run the oil level 1/2 to a quart over, I could do that and hopefully off set the effect of adjusting the float. Got some big rains and wind this evening, so not sure we will get back to it tonight as my friend has to come across town with the tool he has fabricated to try and get the front oil pan bolts back on. I thought I could have gotten the bolts OUT in just afew minutes if I had had a socket extension that were curved to clear that darn big structural piece going across. Amongst all the tools in the garage, we found a flexible shaft that turns within itself, so my friend is affixing a couple pieces of copper tubing to it to maintain it rigid, and hopefully we will be able to do the bolts that way. True, one can remove the radiator and all attached to it, but I'm going to try everything within reason and a reasonable time to avoid that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 21, 2003 Author Share Posted July 21, 2003 i measured 2wo different oil pump float tubes that i have. ON BOTH the thread length is 3/4 inch long. The tube that cam from my 56 Exec shows a stain pattern of 11/32 inch or just under 3/8 inch. So that means that at least 3/8 inch thread was showing and i am confident that it was an untouched factory installation. Sounds pretty close. When we had to adjust the float up that 1/4", we would have taken the threads in slightly. We did all this adjustment on the car, so meaurements hard to come by, especially after being under the car for 5 hours and 10 PM aproaching.I posted the incorrect dimensions on the photo; should have been right at 9/16" on the rebuilt pump and 6/16" (3/8") on the pump removed from the car vs. what you are finding as 12/16" (3/4"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 21, 2003 Author Share Posted July 21, 2003 Geoff, you are right. I posted incorrect numbers on the photo; forgot to take into account the portion of the little plastic caliper where no tic marks existed, i.e., about 12mm, so 11-12 mm seems compatible measurements.BY the way, we have the float set (in the lowered natural gravity position) just about even with the bottom of the vaccuum tube line, which we did NOT rebend to get back on the car; just found where its position was on both ends that fit and reinstalled. Looks like tonight we are going to get back at it in about an hour or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 RO: i'm guessing that the soldered place on your oil pan is very near the starter motor. This usually happens when some 'mechanic' is servicing that area on car and accidently shorts out a wrench or something between the pan and the post on the starter thus burning a small hole in the pan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 22, 2003 Author Share Posted July 22, 2003 Cannot remember where the solder was, but guess that may be it. Oil pan is on. Photos tomorrow of the fabricated tool and components to get the front two oil pan bolts on along with the little cover. Did have an interference with the oil dipstick hitting the pump "someplace." I suspect that is why the top was dented in when we removed it from the car. We bent the dipstick to clear wherever it is hitting down there. Sounded "tinny" so I suspect it was hitting the float. For this to even remotely be possible of happening is an inexcusable engineering and 0% quality factor in the design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 22, 2003 Author Share Posted July 22, 2003 My closing thought for the night: DON'T "Ask this man who owns one!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constellation Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 RO,I can hear You cursing the Packard engineers all the way here in Fairhaven, Mass. The trouble is I can't repeat it.Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 23, 2003 Author Share Posted July 23, 2003 Murphy hung around again last night but the oil pump, pan, flywheel, and other numerous associated parts are back on. Pulled the coil wire and cranked for a good minute but no oil pressure at all. "Some" motion in the transparent oil line. Went ahead and cranked it up and the oil pressure went over to about 45 psi. Let it run a few moments and idle seems to be right at 25 psi. Can rev it up and it will only go up to about 40 psi, but so far has returned to 25 psi idle. Curious, however, in that the pump we took off the car was producing 55 psi. Still have not received an email from Peter G on the latest photos I uploaded. That's a bit of a deficiency in ability to show details and receieve responses on postings in a timely manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 23, 2003 Author Share Posted July 23, 2003 While the 40-45 psi is within spec., I would have expected the newer style rebuilt pump to produce at least the pressure of an old style used pump. Of course, will have to monitor this as I get the car off the stands and attempt to drive it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 RO: The oil pressure readings u describe of the Aller pump is spot on with my pump readings. In fact, in very hot weather of say 95-100 F and idling after a high speed run my idle oil pressure will drop down to about 15psi. I suspect your higher readings from 'old style' pump is because the pressure relief valve is probably sludged up a little. That parts car i got from Al would produce 60 (sixty) psi but it was so sludged up that i could barely remove the spring and piston. There is nothing wrong with 25 psi idle and 40psi at say 20 mph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 RO:Higher oil pressure is only required at higher rpm to overcome the centrifugal force of the oil in the main feed holes in the crank and get oil flow into the rod throws.I've been thinking about shimming the oil relief spring to get higher pressure than you indicate because I expect to see high rpm in the Panther engine. Anyone have a good estimate of shim thickness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Harlin Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 CRAIG Our engine was very similar to yours, (fresh) we used 2 normal average thickness, correct size washers. I dont know what exact thickness was, just plain washers. It jumped pressure up to close to 60lbs. 40 weight oil, & pump out of an 18,000 mile 56 engine. Never had any bearing or pump problems, & this on 1/2 mile dirt tracks. I would think shims would vary one engine v/s another? Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 24, 2003 Author Share Posted July 24, 2003 Possibly still have oil pump problems. Test drive this morning about 6 miles. After an initial ~ 40 psi, then pressure dropped to ~ 25 psi and stayed around there for the first couple of miles; then I noticed it had dropped to ~ 10 psi or less and stayed there for the remaining 4 miles. A quick rev. up never got it above 20 psi. Where the gauge is positioned is hard to read while driving, but it was definitely less than 10 psi at 45-50 mph. New mechanical gauge, hbut I may change it out just to see. OK, IF the oil pump float should be just a bit high, what are the chances the effect is what I am seeing? Getting more and more discouraged on this thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 RO. Call Aller and ask him if he put at least a NEW spring in the pressure relief valve. NOTE: that the pressure relief valve (the piston) and spring ARE DIFFERENT from the open port type pump. I think u can read between the lines there. AND VERY DIFFICULT to obtain. That 10-15 PSI at 40 mph is NOT acceptable. The pressure fluctuations u describe are indiciative of relief valve problems OR gauge problems if using an electric gauge. Let me double check a factory chevy manual on float positioning. BUT, i really doubt its a float problem. The engine had good pressure readings BEFORE u changed the pump?????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 25, 2003 Author Share Posted July 25, 2003 http://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2470Attached photo showing subject inferior oil pump and fabricated tool forinserting and tightening two forward most oil pan bolts that theinaccesibility of also demonstrated poor design features. Other ingredientsinclude black weatherstrip for quick tack to hold the little semicircularplate in place for getting the bolts through it, dum dum to help hold thebolt in the 1/2" socket, and finally the little driver to turn the shaft totighten the bolts. Unlike the previous flywheel cover tools photos, nobandaids were needed this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 25, 2003 Author Share Posted July 25, 2003 http://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2474Attached photo shows fabricated tool for front two oil pan bolts. The flexjoint was made rigid using the copper tubing and the fuel line clamps. Wehad to adjust this up and down 2 or 3 times to get the usable position tomake this thing work. And yes, indeed it was far far better than removingthe radiator, the fan, the taillights, and the back seat to get the jobdone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 25, 2003 Author Share Posted July 25, 2003 Mechanical Gauge read 0 coming home. I changed out the gauge tonight and the new gauge reead up to 40 psi and then 20-25 psi at idle for 5 minutes. Another test drive tomorrow. It still bothers me that oil does not get up to the gauge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 RO. It could be worse. On some cars u have to lift the engine about 4 inches to remove the pan. If i remember right even the infallable chevy engine has to be lifted for pan removal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 RO, loosen the fitting at the gauge while the engine is running to drive out the air and tighten it as soon as oil reaches fitting. Keep a rag under gauge to catch any oil that might seep out.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 25, 2003 Author Share Posted July 25, 2003 Well, I must have a restriction somewhere upstream of the gauge, I presume at the fittings/line into the engine block. Fired the car up this morning and while it never came up to above 25-30 psi, it was running well. Drove about 6 miles and then as I slowed down to a near crawl, the gauge went to 0 psi which we know cannot be true. About 4 hours later, the saga repeated itself in that if I ever slow down to just a crawl or a stoplight, the gauge just drops on over to 0 (as in pegged at 0). I loosened the fitting at the gauge to almost off (very loose finger tight) and let it run a minute or so and no change at all. No change in the sporadic "lengths" of oil in the typgon tubing. Only thing I did not do was just pull the line and fitting completely off the gauge....don't like that hot oil flying around. I am now suspecting some "unknwon" restriction is there and this is in fact what prohibited my electric gauge and sending unit from working. This is the second mechanical gauge I have put on the car. Only thing unchanged is the tubing/fittings at the block. The saga continues. But the car drives nice and sounds quiet, far quieter on the valves than before the oil pump was chnaged out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 26, 2003 Author Share Posted July 26, 2003 Losing ground....Murphy will NOT leave. Remember the T/L motor rebuild a couple months ago. Well, the rear end started raising up some as the gas in the tank went down. Went to flip my switch and nothing. Struggled with wires and jumpers and test leads, etc. until Nell suggested a hammer on the motor. Now, new standard equipment in the trunk is a hammer to get the darn T/L motor to work. But the oil pressure saga continues and even I am getting quite bored with it. Took the fittings apart at the block and found no obstructions in the fittings or the line. Stripped a new fitting for the compression fitting and had to start over. Got the new fittings in and fired up the engine. This time I have oil reaching the gauge. Pretty steady stream for at least part of the way up the tube. Only went over to 25-30 psi but held fast idle at 15-20 psi. I know I have oil pressure though. Before I put the new fittings in, I covered the oil hole on the block just with a rag and fired it up for a second.....reminded me a little of ol' faithful. Mechanical oil pressure gauge pretty darn simple device, but this is my 3rd attempt to get accurate readings, because for sure 0 psi isn't right or I'd have some real noise and problems. May be tempted to go back to electric, but the first electric sending unit/gauge failed to read anything at any time. Wondering if this car is possessed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 RO: It doesnt really matter if u have air in the oil pressure line. Pressure is PRESSURE as far as the gauge is concerened. In fact, if the line is tapped high or runs hi on the block then when u shut the engine off the oil will drain out being replaved with air anyway. I do not understand all of the gauge problems u r having. BUT, to be on the safe side to double cheque the gauge why not install a SECIOND gauge out on the engine somewhere. An easy place is to just screw a gauge directly into the side of the oil filter with a 'T' fitting or something. That way, if there is ever any doubt tabout the gauge reading inside of the car u can always pull over, jump out and cheque the direct mount gauge on the engine. Thats what i did for one full summer a couple of years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Yes, that TL motor problem u describe is exactly why i eleminated the automatic control side of it and just wired my own manual switch to the dash. I mean its not like i cant tell if the car is level or not. I just dont like the automatic feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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