Guest Randy Berger Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 RO, a different redesigned oil pump was introduced part way through the 1956 model year. It is easily identifiable by a threaded bolt and gasket constraining the relief valve spring and valve itself. The 1955 and early 56 oil pumps have an insert held in by a cotter pin to do the same job. Though I have seen no official paperwork on it, it is obviously an attempt to fix the oiling problem. Some folks thought that adding oil would raise the level to where it would be higher than the place where air was entering. If you were sucking air at the relief valve, that might work, but I don't think that was ever the real problem. It is the shaft wearing out the top portion of the pump.Attached is pic of late oil pump and you can readily see the bolt replacement.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted June 25, 2003 Author Share Posted June 25, 2003 Well, it would appear then this '55 Packard Clipper Custom had a '56 oil pump in it and that confirms some work was done on the engine what with the bent flywheel cover guide pin. And that shaft on this '55 model has considerable wobble in it. I have a couple of photos but haven't yet determined how to post a photo to this site. My homepage host site doesen't accommodate that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted June 25, 2003 Author Share Posted June 25, 2003 Oil pump off the '55 Parts car and http://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto....;amp;thecat=500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted June 25, 2003 Author Share Posted June 25, 2003 http://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto....;amp;thecat=500 and http://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto....;amp;thecat=504 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted June 25, 2003 Author Share Posted June 25, 2003 I guess these photos will eventually show up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted June 25, 2003 Author Share Posted June 25, 2003 Two views of the pump pulled off the '55 Clipper Custom:http://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2196http://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2197 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 RO, now that you know oil pump was replaced, you should be suspicious of other components. Plastigage all main and rod bearings and examine journals for scratches or gouges. Check to see if you already have oversize bearings (mains or rods). Send the 56 pump to Bob Aller for rebuild. I hope you've caught the problem before it wrecked your engine. Keep us posted.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted June 28, 2003 Author Share Posted June 28, 2003 Gas tank problems (of course) on one of the other Packards has delayed pulling the '56 CC into the garage to pull the oil pump until late next week. Not been able to get ahold of Bob Aller yet, but left him a message this evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted June 30, 2003 Author Share Posted June 30, 2003 Randy, et. al. I see that Kanter and Chirco both offer '56 Packard oil pumps on an exchange basis. Any experience here with their fix? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Dave Knight gave me a severly broken 56 block. i have the rear 1/4 of the block cut away from the rest of the block for mock-up and pump testing (still weighs 60# bare). The IDEA is to determine WHY the pumps wear prematurly as well as testing and other mock-up.DAVE KNIGHT - send me your e-mail address to PackardV8@Juno.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 4, 2003 Author Share Posted July 4, 2003 As you can see from the gas tank thread, gas tank and sending unit problems continue on the '55 Clipper but this morning verified the new sending unit is faulty. Got the garage cleaned out and ready to pull the '70 Charger out and put the '56 Clipper Custom in to start on the oil pump removal. Randy Berger, I never did hear from Aller after four calls and messages, so when I do get this off, I plan to send it to Packards International, who I confirmed yesterday still do the "redesign" and have been doing it since 1969 with apparently several hundred done. Very hot here, and with other things happening or not happening, progress may be slow. But hopefully I can start on it today or tomorrow. Like the gas tank saga, this is no fun either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 RO, I think PI does a credible job, but you lose the vacuum pump and have to convert to electric wipers. Packard had electric wipers before WWII and why they got rid of them is something I have yet to understand. Don't forget to check and plastigage the rods and mains while you have the pan down. Good luck.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JT Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Randy, One thing I never understood was that the pre war jr Packards, such as my 40 120, had electric wipers while the seniors had vacuum? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Brown Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 I think I have the answer to why they ditched the electric wipers. Truth was the electrical systems were so pitiful in the early 50s that they couldn't keep up with the new gadgets. So they decided to use the vac system to run what they could. In the earlier jr models they must have decided their weren't as many electrical gadgets as the seniors so they used an elec wiper there. By 55-56 the vac wipers should not have been needed with the new 12 volt elec systems. But the company was worried about a lot more than wipers by that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 Old habits die hard. My 57 Buick had vacuum wipers and a vacuum pump just like Packard, on the bottom of the oil pump. I think Chevy had gone electric well before that.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 As i understand it after calling both Aller and PI about 2 yeas ago:Aller REBULDS the pump with new parts and to factory spec.PI 'REDESIGNS' the pump but does NOT rebuild any existing part that u send to them.So if the pump is worn then the PI redesign will not address that issue.The Aller rebuild does not address the premature wear problem.SO, 'to do it once, do it right' actualy requires that u do it twice. First Allers fix and then the PI fix.But, then its really only 66% right without the plugged Pressure relief valve port unless the is already plugged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 Aller does not just rebuild the pump but installs a thicker shaft and BUSHING at the top of the pump. That plus new gears says Aller does a more complete job.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 6, 2003 Author Share Posted July 6, 2003 Well, I will check one more time again to try and contact Aller when I get the oil pump off but it will be awhile as things did not go well yesterday. The position of the tailpipe and the torsion bar made it such it took me an hour to get the starter off and then it got worse trying to get the exhaust flange nuts off the studs (the '55 was much easier with short bolts that turned easily) and my cutting tool for the tailpipe was useless. So I aborted for the time being what with the gas tank sending unit saga on the Clipper Super. The '56 can just sit there for awhile and rest...plenty of cosmetics to do on it in the imterim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 RO, replace those exhaust studs and nuts with bolts - that's what was on there originally - 3/8-16 X 2 1/8 on driver's side with a dash of never-sieze.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 RO,I have not read all the threads, but if you drained 6 quarts of oil out of the crankcase and it was real thin, it sounds like it was diluted with gasoline which can happen when the fuel pump diaphram breaks. The fuel pump will still work, but it also pumps fuel into the crankcase. Of course, that can cause severe damage to the internal parts, especially lifters and rod and main bearings. That, in turn, can cause the engine to knock when it is warm and the oil is very thin, but not when it is cold because the fuel has evaporated to some extent when the engine is shut off and the oil is not so thin. I've seen this with small block Chevrolets a lot. Hope that is helpful,Martin Frazer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 10, 2003 Author Share Posted July 10, 2003 Well, Martin, that is something no one else has before offered up, and since I have not chnaged the pump out on this car since I acquired it, it's worth looking into. The 30W oil I put in and drained out looked ok, but then it had but a few miles on it. I drained the oil thinking I was going to go for pulling the oil pump out but ran into accessibility problems with the exhaust flange left side studs and nuts, but tonight determined I could approach them from the front with a deep socket although one will be very tough to get into. Perhaps your scenario, too, could help explain why I get good oil pressure (55 psi) and good idle (15-25 psi), but in a few moments it drops not to recover. But the oil pump off the parts car was sent to Aller today and if things go well, I'll have the one off the running car soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 13, 2003 Author Share Posted July 13, 2003 With great vigor today I mounted a new attack to remove the '56 CC oil pump and the exhaust removal, steering linkage lowering, starter off, all 22 oil pan bolts (those front two are TOUGH!) went pretty good and the but again, as on the parts car, the darn flywheel cover hampered finsihing today. Found 3 bolts actually missing from it, but unfortunately it was not the ones on top, the 9/16" I believe it is.....pesky lite rascals and the passenger side is posing many problems with underseat heatre hoses, sone other lines running along there, and the durn tailpipe. Back at it tomorrow as the oil pump WIll come off the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 RO, I always had better luck with the two front pan bolts by getting at them from the front. I always had the radiator out when I did that - lucky coincidence. It also helps if you're six feet tall and double-jointed <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.I can only remove the drivers side exhaust bolts with a universal and long extension. I guess Packard did that to keep the exhaust pipe away from the starter.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constellation Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 RO & Randy,I've been there and done that too. I was lucky I had a lift and even then its Tough. Wait til you go to put the front bolts back in the oil pan. I'll hear you cursing the Packard Engineers all the way to Fairhaven. Good luck with the Pump. It would pay to check the Bearings while the Pan is down. I regret now that I didn't freshen up the engine in mine after tangling with the front bolts on the Pan.Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 14, 2003 Author Share Posted July 14, 2003 Oil pump is off! See attached photos. http://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2444 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 14, 2003 Author Share Posted July 14, 2003 Hack saw for the tailpipes, 4-foot HEAVY DUTY pinch bar with BIG hammer to beat the contrary flywheel cover into submission. Band aids standard equipment.http://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2443 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 14, 2003 Author Share Posted July 14, 2003 The "treasure."http://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2445 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 14, 2003 Author Share Posted July 14, 2003 I cursed the Packard designers well beyond Neptune. Got that oil pan within about a millimeter of clearing the flywheel but it would not go without removing a second steering suspension part besides the three botls on the frame. Flywheel cover just would not come loose. We got it separated but it would not pull down. We found access from above driver's side, place the pinch bar flat edge end on the flyhweel cover and proceeded to pound until we got it edged down on the driver's side. The I went under the car and edged the passenger side down. Yep, now I know why the parts car passenger side alignment pin was bent because this one came out slightly, just slightly bent. It was by design! However, I have one good pin from the parts car flywheel cover and will use it. All appears ok under the engine but we are checking the bearings and will wait on the rebuilt plugged type pump. Curious why this pump on the '56 was the reportedly older style cotter pin type and then the '55 parts car was the plugged type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 14, 2003 Author Share Posted July 14, 2003 Front two oil pan bolts. After stugglimg for awhile, I thought I had found the solution, two big holes in the bottom of the channel assembly across the front were in perfect alignment with the bolts and the socket would fit through; however it hit a second upper plate. I am going to look and see what the upper plate does and it may be getting two like size holes drilled through it for access to those front bolts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 RO: Wow, what a job! Not that it's much relevent, but it has even more convinced me to:(1) not pull the oil pan with the engine in the car.(2) I'm going to pull the body off the Panther (nee Clipper) to do all the frame-related stuff, maybe including install the engine/tranny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 yes, the lower bell housing half is a bear to remove. Use a SLIDEHAMMER to remove it. Screw the slidehammer into one of the threaded holes on the right side near the split. Use a block of wood and hammer in the starter indexing bore on the left side and work it a little buit at a time from side to side.U thing taking it off is bad??????? Just wait till u go back on with it!!!!the front oil pan bolts can be removed with a 1/4 drive socket set.When installing the oil pan use dental floss or thin thread to hold gasket in place on the pan.Yes, its a big dirty job. I've done it 4 times total on 2 different cars. After about the 3rd time u get to where u can knock it out pretty quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 RO, glad you finally got the pump off. I thought about drilling two holes also as I have a 20-inch long 1/2" drill bit and then could ream it out. Some hammer-wielding mechanic must have removed your lower bell housing at some point in time. My lower bell housing is very position-sensitive going in or coming out, but I never had to use a hammer. I recommend replacing the dowel pins. I am always able to put the lower cover back in position using only the handle end of the hammer to tap it up evenly on both sides.The newer design oil pump was introduced part way through the 56 model year, so you could still get the older pump in a 56. That's the way mine was. I got the later pump out of my parts car. I guess if some dealer replaced a pump, they installed the newer version. This is a good thread - keep us posted!YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 17, 2003 Author Share Posted July 17, 2003 Oil pump already back after only a few days from Aller and looking like new. Hope to get it all back together before the end of the month. We have not performed the measurements on the bearings yet, but should get to that this week sometime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 RO, can u mic the shaft just under the flex collar????? Send a close up pic of the pump concentrating on the area where the flex collar and shaft enter the pump. look at the thread 'Packard V8 oil pump mods'. i explained how to see the difference in the mounting flanges. Also, can u see any indication of a bronze bushing ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 17, 2003 Author Share Posted July 17, 2003 I'll try to do that. I can see the top of the bushing and it closes the gap out with respect to the other pump side by side. One difference I immediatley noted was the number of threads showing on the filter tube; more showing on the rebuilt than the other one. I'm trying to compare to my original photos, but not easy since I did not concentrate on that part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 before u install the pump BE SURE to measure the float against the pump body as outlined in the service manual. The service manual is not clear as to the position of the float while performing the measurement. Take a look at the service manual and u will see what i mean. Please let us know what u find on the measurement. The catch is that the manual does not indicate POSITION of float (up or down) while taking the measurement. One way will not allow for the pan to install. see fig.'s 77 and 78 in manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 18, 2003 Author Share Posted July 18, 2003 I've taken close up photos and made measurements and uploaded the photos to this site but waiting on Peter G to approve them for submittal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 18, 2003 Author Share Posted July 18, 2003 First of six photos. This is the rebuilt oil pump with bushing just barely visible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 18, 2003 Author Share Posted July 18, 2003 First of six photos. This is the rebuilt oil pump with bushing just barely visible. http://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2452 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 18, 2003 Author Share Posted July 18, 2003 Second photo is oil pump shaft closeup.http://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2453 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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