Will a 320 engine swap into a 1939 model 40 series?

[37sedan_mod47]

I'm considering a '39 model 40 series that is without an engine and transmission. I would like to install an early 1950s 320 engine in it. Is it possible to fit the bigger engine without major reconstruction of the core support, radiator, etc?

[Mrbuick714]

The engine compartment would be too small,lengthwise.The engine that belongs there is already a tight fit.Any engine newer than a 49 will give you waterpump pulley problems.

[37sedan_mod47]

Would it be possible to get a pre '49 320 in there, even if I must move the radiator forward or install a different radiator? I'd like to build a nice running, 200+ HP straight eight for a mild street rod. Everyone drops v-8s in these cars, but I like the sound and feel of the inline 8.

What's the difference between a pre '49 and post '49 320 besides the babbited con rods? Is the length different?

[The Old Guy]

As Mr Buick 714 stated, the 320 engine is almost 6 inches longer than a 248, and even the later 263 were a stretch to install. If you are serious about the project, you will either need to move the firewall back, or extend the front end <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[37sedan_mod47]

Thanks for the info guys. I'll keep this in mind when I go to look at the car this weekend. I'd better remember to take a tape measure. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Matt Harwood]

As someone said, the 320 is about six inches longer than the smaller engines (248 and 263 are externally identical size-wise). Even by moving the radiator, I doubt you'll have the room in a '39 body. Plus, the engine mounting locations are critical--on these old engines, the front engine mounts are right under the water pump housing at the front of the engine. They sit on a major crossmember which would have to be relocated well forward to support the engine. And bear in mind that the 320 weighs about 875 pounds, about twice what a V8 weighs, so getting it to sit in there somehow will require substantial reinforcement of any mount you devise. Also, if you use the V8, you can make more power with less weight; taking weight out is like putting horsepower in.

Having done dozens of engine swaps myself in the past (you can see the V8 Rangers I build as a side-line on my web page and that's a tight fit). I've learned that getting the engine to fit in the engine bay is the easy part--getting it to live happily in there is another task altogether. The engine mount issue is just one problem you'll face, and it's a big one. Then there are things like the transmission/torque tube location, rear engine mount, radiator, etc. Maybe it'll physically fit in there, but like I said, making it safe and reliable is the real task.

Good luck, but if I were you, I'd look to a V8 if you're heart-set on using this body you already have.

[Mrbuick714]

I put a 322 into a 52 Super. It worked out fine-I did MUCH checking before I proceded. I have been thinkling about your wants. If the body is exactly whay you want.I would buy it for BODY ONLY,then I would get a 1940 car,already having a 320 that used that paticular body,then use the 40 frame ( I dont care for the front suspension or transmission mounts on a 39)then get a front clip for a 39 Century. A local guy here put a 40 front clip on a 39. You will discover there are strong ties between the 39 & 40,Special and Century series.(bodywise) Lots of luck. We loved our 52 Super V8 !

[Matt Harwood]

Just remember that a 322 is a V8, not a straight-8! That would work just fine in your application.

I also agree that you could mix and match bodies, frames and front clips. I actually thought about doing this when I despaired at not finding a '41 Century sedanette. I thought I'd buy a '41 Century sedan and a '41 Special sedanette, and put the sedanette body on the Century chassis and make my own Century sedanette. It would have worked, but fortunately, I found an original that was in great condition.

I'd urge you to set some goals for your project, including budget, performance, useage and measure it against the level of skill you have and/or the money you have to spend. A lot of guys get into these projects without a specific goal in mind (and I mean <span style="font-style: italic">specific!</span>) and get lost along the way. They spend too much money and never finish. I've finished a few projects for guys who lost their way, and it really hurt to see them so bummed. So before you spend a single dime, my advice as a former professional car builder, is to sit down for a half-hour or so and make a detailed list of what you want your car to be when it is done, your overall budget, and an honest appraisal of your skills. Believe me, when you see stuff starting to add up or get difficult, that can change your plans for you. Suddenly a small-block Chevy in there sounds like a great idea.

Hope this helps.

[37sedan_mod47]

Thanks for all the good advice! Actually, I am experienced in restorations and fabrication, but usually it's tractors and motorcycles. I am a mechanical engineer and have a good relationship with a local machine shop, which helps in these things. Also, my dad owns one of the largest auto body shops in town. I can't stand body work myself, so I'll let his guys take care of that.

Now that I think about it, it might be easier to move a portion of the firewall back than to move the engine forward. I'd like to keep the body as-is if at all possible. I will probably be able to estimate how much effort it will take once I see the car in person.

Here is a summary of what I plan to do:

1. Mild 320 mods w/ dual sidedraft carbs

2. 8-2-1 header with single exhaust

3. power disk brakes front and rear

4. 10 bolt GM posi rear axle w/3.23 or 3.55 ratio

5. T-10 4 speed or GM 5 speed w/OD if in budget

6. Power steering, possibly rack and pinion, tilt of course

7. Hydraulic clutch

8. hanging pedals

9. stock body

10. 16 inch chrome wire wheels with 245-55-R16 performance tires

11. reclining bucket seats in front, stock rear seat

12. stock dash with column mtd. tach

13. ???

This is no quickie half-a**ed project. The car will be rebuilt from the ground up using modern materials wherever possible to improve the ride and safety. I will be able to do about 75 percent of the work myself, so my money will go a long way...I hope.

[Matt Harwood]

Looking at your list, I have a couple of suggestions. First, since you don't own the '39 40 Series yet, don't buy it. Get a large series car to start with. They aren't that hard to find nor are they expensive. That will solve the problems we discussed. No need to cut up the firewall and give up valuable leg room for the engine, not to mention the fabrication and modifications involved. Also, the larger car will give you the 320 you need, as well as all the accessories and mounts you'll need to make it work.

Second, if that doesn't appeal to you, subframe the car. I know you said you don't want to go this route, but to achieve some of your goals, you'll probably have to. The disk brakes, for instance, will probably be difficult to adapt to the older style spindles, if not impossible. Same with the rack and pinion steering.

Third, why single exhaust? The '41s with dual carbs can accept a dual exhaust system easily without a lot of work. Or use a pair of headers. But the 8 into 1 header probably won't make any more power than stock without 3" pipe or something. And if you port the head, it'll be worse.

Fourth, using a T10 or a GM 5-speed will force you to make an adapter for the transmission. It won't bolt up to the straight-8 out of the box. This could be problematic, but Jyrki Pyyarki has done it. Perhaps he could give you some advice.

I don't want to discourage you, but it sounds like you're pushing a project a little too hard. I've been there, believe me. None of this advice is just heresy, I've lived it. That straight-8 will be hard to fit in the car as you've described it. Using a V8 and a sub-frame will solve every one of the problems I've described above and make 80% of your wish list come true for a lot less money and effort. I commend you for your desire to make this thing work, and I'm very interested in your plan, but it's my opinion that you have too many incompatible goals for a '39 Special. And the costs will add up quicker than you think blazing this trail.

I hope I'm helping. If not, let me know and I'll bug out.

[Guest]

You would be far better buying a 1939 series 60 Century. It already has the longer wheel base, engine mounts etc. The actual body shell of the special & century is the same. The Century has an extra 2"(?) in the wheel base all in front of the fire wall.

[37sedan_mod47]

I appreciate the feedback as all have made valid points which I will consider before buying the model 41. However, I have a couple of good reasons for considering it even with the difficulties I may have in getting a 320 under the hood. Most importantly I like the shorter hood line of the Specials as compared to the Century. Also, I can get the model 41 for a good price because it is not original, but still has a solid body and frame. Most of the Centuries (and other models for that matter) I see are either complete and too nice and expensive to rod out or are incomplete and full of rust.

The only reason I have chosen a Buick for this project is that my dad used to have a '36 Special business coupe with a '51 engine (probably a 263). I grew up loving the sound of the straight eight engine. This is why I insist on a straight eight, single exhaust, etc.

Considering my budget and abilities, I think all of my wants are within reason. My goal is to have a nice looking, comfortable, mild street rod that can keep up with modern traffic (cruise at 65 mph) and go stoplight to stoplight with a little zip. I am not intending to race or even street race the car. Its more of a family toy than anything.

By the way, I live near Mansfield, Ohio and intend to join the BCA as soon as I get the right car. Maybe we will cross paths at a show or swap meet in the near future.

[Matt Harwood]

Hey, you're in Mansfield--not far away at all! Cool. Consider joining us at the NEOBCA. It would be nice to have some other younger members (I'm about two generations younger than the average member, and I'm 33!).

Here's a thought for you, which I had after seeing your intentions with the car. Restore it but upgrade it at the same time. Here's what I mean:

Use a 263 engine and hook it up to whatever transmission you want. If you can find a way to make the GM 5-speed work, great, that would be ideal with an overdrive. Use mild gears in the back if you have to stick with the original 3-speed (which isn't a bad idea--they're good transmissions). You can probably get decent power out of a 263, and they're quite durable. Basically, they're just smaller versions of the 320. They won't be torque monsters, but you could upgrade one like I outlined in one of my earlier posts and have a nice runner. It'll also be somewhat lighter. You should have no problem cruising at 70 MPH and keeping up with traffic with the right combination. I plan to drive my Century as often as possible, and I don't have any concerns about that issue.

Keep the suspension and brakes stock, but have the shocks rebuilt with more compression and rebound (Apple Hydraulics can do this for you). The Buicks already have fairly sophisticated suspensions with coil springs all around and front and rear roll bars in addition to the Panhard rod/torque arm rear suspension. Removing the torque tube and rear axle will require you to build a different rear suspension, probably a 4-link with trailing arms that quite honestly, doesn't work as well.

You can also upgrade to the brakes from a large series car--they should bolt right on and improve braking considerably. The discs would be great, but perhaps from a cost:benefit ratio, keeping original stuff might work better. You can add a power steering setup easily enough, because many of the GM gearboxes were the same for many years. Again, Jyrki will probably be able to better answer questions in this department, since he already did it.

Upgrade to 12-volt electrics so you can use all the neat stuff you're talking about in the interior.

I'll bet you could make a smart performer out of a 263 motor with some judicious mods. It's all in the gearing, and if you can get an overdrive transmission in there, then you can have the best of both worlds. And it won't be the headache that a 320 in the little body will be, but you'll still get the straight-8 sound and smoothness.

Just a quick thought I had. If you ever want to come up and see a 320 in person, I'm pulling mine out of the Century this weekend. You can also get a good look at how it is mounted and what the firewall looks like. I don't think my '41 is too different from the '39s, and you might get a better idea of some of the problems you'll be facing. E-mail me at toolman8@ix.netcom.com if you're interested. Buick visitors are always welcome at my place.

[palbuick]

You may also consider joining the Buick Street Rod Club.

Excellent for rodders, the 37-38-39-40 cars are the most popular for street rods. A few still have the original straight 8's in them. Lots of ideas and help

Write to Buick Street Rod Assocation, inc

824 Kay Circle

Chattanooga, Tn., 37421-4218

Carter Hamptom Sr.

Jim Schilf / palbuick@aol.com

[37sedan_mod47]

Thanks for the invitations. I'm sure I will join the street rodders club as well as the BCA. Since I live about 30 miles closer to Columbus than I do to Cleveland, I may join a club out of that area if there's one that's operating. Right now I have much to do with car selection and parts hunting, my favorite part.

Matt, I am 37 myself so we may represent the younger generation driving old Buicks. I was just at the Dave and Ed's swapmeet in Canfield, OH last weekend and saw only 1 older buick, a reletively stock early '50s sedan. Showing up at shows like these in a Buick should set me apart from the crowd.

As for my project and all of the work required to see it through, I am a patient man. I can see a project such as this taking 2-3 years of evenings and weekends. Most of the work required is simple fabrication and machining. I enjoy the challenge of the work more than actually using the vehicle once it is complete. I would like to see your shop so I'll email you some time to set it up.