1960 Plymouth Fury - 4 door sedan

[madfins]

Hi,

 

I'm scheduled to get my car checked to address mechanical issues in mid-April.

 

My normal maintenance timing had been delayed by the passing of my last two regular mechanics (both died and trying to get info in order to find another local one is like pulling teeth) who worked over the years on what my now grown-up daughter called 'Big Old Car' when she very a young child.

 

Over the years, maintenance was performed on things like tires (still bias/ply), shock absorbers, oil filters, wiper blades, water pumps, brakes (shoes - wheel cylinders - drums - springs - hoses, etc.) and belts as needed with NOS replacement parts, though not necessarily Mopar dealer parts.

 

All of the paint is still original.

 

Being in our family for 63 years old, however, means that addition items have been upgraded over time.  Again, when possible, original parts / materials replaced those that needed to be updated (gas tank - exhaust system - radiator - heater core - rubber gaskets - headliner - package tray - new matching seat covers).

 

Hoses clamps are not the original type.  An oil filter adapter has been added to eliminate the 'filter can - (V8 -318) washer' which younger mechanics could never seat properly.

 

From a safety point of view, seat belts were added (front and back) though not the ones offered back for the 1960 model along with the replacement of the intake and both exhaust manifolds (same part numbers along with the hear riser) due to leakage of fumes from them into the interior.

 

I have gone through the judging booklet and cannot really find a straight answer as to how 'original' an 'original' car has to be in order to qualify for the first award (23 or more out of 30 points) along with (27 or more out of 30) for the next level 'original' ranking.

 

I have received awards as part of car shows and holiday parades in the past but nothing AACA-related.

 

Awards are nice but my world will not be crushed if I don't qualify for either version.  My goal has always been to keep the family memories going by driving it around, answering questions about it, trying to avoid accidents almost caused by others (who lose their driving abilities once they see 'Big Old Car' on the road) and just spending time cleaning, polishing and waxing it (would take 2 days to do it all).  In fact, I will probably spend more on it than it is worth monetarily but not looking to make money on it.

 

With this upcoming maintenance, I am trying to decide whether to upgrade to radial tires, front disc brakes (new wheels - etc.), replacing the rear springs (we now have speed bumps I would have to go over to leave/reenter our development - do not want to rip the bottom of the car off after getting everything else fixed!)

 

So I ask.  What would you do?

 

If requested, I can add more photos.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by madfins
add more photos (see edit history)

[AURktman]

More photos!  See if you can take it to an AACA HPOF event and get it judged.  I’m taking my 60 Pontiac Bonneville next year hopefully as it’s very original.  It’s only original once.  

[madfins]

More photos!

 

 

[Chry54]

bloomington gold has a survivor show and they list what they considor original to be.they rate by pecentage of what is left of factory original and they have 4 categories. what they call zenith is the highest and needs 90 % to claim that title. i have all the info on this if you cannot find it. i judge survivor cars for my car club, but i use their standards liberally. your engine looks to be repainted. was it rebuilt? at my show that would not keep it from being a survivor. your car is beautiful. my grandfather had one. my car is on this thread. the 54 chrysler.  we drive these cars and don't worry about the trophys. too much fun.    dennis

[avgwarhawk]

Great looking car.  I would do what makes me feel comfortable driving and enjoy the vehicle.  If disc brakes make you feel better about driving the car....then do it.  Radials?  Same.  I keep to bias ply myself.  I love the look.    

[madfins]

Thanks for the Bloomington gold suggestion.  Will check it out when I get a chance.

 

Yes, the engine was repainted when it was opened up to replace the intake and exhaust manifolds (reasons listed in original post) along with the exhaust system due to leaks.

 

Once opened up, the rings were replaced with 'hardened' ones to deal with unleaded fuel and sludge buildup after 55+ years was also dealt with.

 

Will see if I can find the receipt to see what else was done when I get a chance.

 

The 'brake' issue -

 

These 'forward look' cars were built using the 'Lockheed' brake system - 2 smaller wheel cylinders in each front wheel, 1 large wheel cylinder in each rear wheel.

 

Even when new they were a pain to get 'just right'.

 

Brake fluid leaks can be found almost anywhere in the system, especially if the cars are not used on a regular basis causing grabbing, pulling, etc..

 

I have had multiple master cylinders, stop light switches, wheel cylinders, hoses, shoes, etc., replaced and usually within a year to 18 months if I am lucky, I am back to the grabbing, pulling, etc., again.  If I keep what I have, I have found a part that has never been replaced before and others have found to be an issue - the brake fluid pipe (the nipple into each cylinder) between the two cylinders.

 

Looking to discs to eliminate those issues.

 

However, that opens a whole list of new ones.

 

Which disc conversion kit to get?  Possible need to go to heavier 15' inch wheels (lose original wheel covers)?  Type of tires (bias/ply vs radial)?  If radial, since the tire circumference is so much less  how does that affect stance and overall look?  If radials are chosen that in size are closer to bias/ply, how does the wider radial tire affect full turning capabilities?  Extra weight (more need for heavy-duty suspension parts)?

 

In any case I would like to switch from the single to double reservoir master cylinder which requires new brake lines.

 

Perhaps coming up with some sort of hybrid brake system using front brakes from the mid-to-late 60's or early-mid-late 70's Mopar cars that used 14' wheels is the way to go.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by madfins
clarify a confusing sentence (see edit history)

[Bloo]

3 hours ago, madfins said:

These 'forward look' cars were built using the 'Lockheed' brake system - 2 smaller wheel cylinders in each front wheel, 1 large wheel cylinder in each rear wheel.

 

Even when new they were a pain to get 'just right'.

That's true.

 

3 hours ago, madfins said:

Brake fluid leaks can be found almost anywhere in the system, especially if the cars are not used on a regular basis causing grabbing, pulling, etc..

Cup expanders can mitigate that to some extent if the leaks are at the cups. Any modern rebuilds or kits should have them, although someone posted a GM kit the other day that did not. Other leaks just shouldn't be happening.

 

3 hours ago, madfins said:

I have had multiple master cylinders, stop light switches, wheel cylinders, hoses, shoes, etc., replaced and usually within a year to 18 months if I am lucky, I am back to the grabbing, pulling, etc., again.  If I keep what I have, I have found a part that has never been replaced before and others have found to be an issue - the brake fluid pipe (the nipple into each cylinder) between the two cylinders.

Wow. These weren't troublesome systems when new.. well except for the initial setup... and except for the hydraulic stop light switch, if that is what it has. Those switches are lousy. On a modified car, I would get rid of it but not a survivor. New aftermarket production ones with a extra letter at the end of the part number activate at lower pressure, a big improvement. Most of them are (supposedly) incompatible with Silicone fluid, but a genuine Harley Davidson one (yes, really) might solve that if you plan to run silicone fluid.

 

Years ago when I did a lot of Chrysler stuff, I never replaced as many parts as you have even dragging cars out that had been "resting" outdoors for years. Brakes every 18 months is crazy, even in daily heavy use. Something is wrong there, and it is hard to guess what.

 

I recommend starting with freshly turned drums and arc ground shoes to match. Rubber hoses need to be new or recent. Steel lines? Well, in my area they are basically a non-problem, but if the car is from an area where they salt the roads replacing them wouldn't be a bad idea. Any bad bores in the cylinders need to be sleeved. As much trouble as you have had, I would be tempted to sleeve all of them even though I never would have back in the day. Set everything up EXACLTY as the manual says. Yes it's fiddly. Yes, it's a pain. You might need to do it twice. When you get it right, you should not need to screw with it all the time, minor adjustments ONLY to compensate for wear.

 

When these brakes are right, they feel really really good. They feel linear like discs, because they have no servo action. They also require more pedal pressure, just like discs do because they also have no servo action. Unless you have power assist, that is. Then all bets are off about pedal effort. The main advantage to discs over these is fade resistance. If you do a lot of driving in mountain passes you would probably notice a difference. With drum brake cars it was good practice to "save" your brakes when going downhill at highway speeds for miles and miles. Get them too hot and they could fade out. It was a possibility. Discs can fade out too, and will under enough stress, but they shed heat much better, and fade is less likely... well.... assuming the discs brakes are big enough.

 

Keep in mind that most brake pulling problems are really suspension problems and won't go away when you fix the brakes.

 

3 hours ago, madfins said:

Which disc conversion kit to get? 

 

3 hours ago, madfins said:

Perhaps coming up with some sort of hybrid brake system using front brakes from the mid-to-late 60's or early-mid-late 70's Mopar cars that used 14' wheels is the way to go.

 

We are mainly restorers in this forum, so you probably won't find a lot of info about that here. The best disc conversions on Chrysler products have always involved backdating something from a newer Chrysler product. Richard "Rick" Ehrenberg documented a bunch of these in Mopar Action magazine back in the day. The suspension geometry on these cars was well done and in some cases stayed the same for a very long time. There may be a spindle that is for the correct geometry. I know this is doable back to 1965 on the full size cars. 1960 is a real reach, but I wouldn't rule it out without finding out for sure if it is possible to backdate like that without screwing up the geometry. A few years ago Rick (or maybe the magazine) had a site up and some old articles up. Maybe he would answer an email? I've seen some kits over the years on big cars that were made of little 4-piston racing parts that were way too small. Caveat emptor.

 

3 hours ago, madfins said:

Possible need to go to heavier 15' inch wheels (lose original wheel covers)?

Probably different wheels will be needed to clear the calipers, at least if the brakes are big enough for the car.

3 hours ago, madfins said:

If radial, since the tire circumference is so much less  how does that affect stance and overall look? 

Radials drive better. Bias has "the look". The look is pretty important on a survivor IMHO. Modern radials will make it sit lower. Gearing is an issue on so many cars, but won't be on this one. The speedometer will be off. Bias look radials are available in the correct original sizes though, and look pretty good. Check out Diamondback Auburn and Coker Classic radials.

 

3 hours ago, madfins said:

If radials are chosen that in size are closer to bias/ply, how does the wider radial tire affect full turning capabilities?

They hit at full lock. It's annoying but not impossible to live with. The original tires would have had an aspect ratio of 90% or 100% and 75% is as tall as it usually gets in modern radials. Bias look radials are the better plan here as they are the right size. They might still touch(?) but would be way better. They also cost a lot more.

 

3 hours ago, madfins said:

In any case I would like to switch from the single to double reservoir master cylinder which requires new brake lines.

That conversion is highly overrated. I wouldn't. Unless you go to disc brakes. In that case you need the huge reservoir on the disc side of the master cylinder. It's a safety issue because the fluid level will drop with pad wear, and if the reservoir is not big enough you can run out of fluid. In practice, with parts you can actually buy, a dual master cylinder is the only way you are going to get the big reservoir for the discs.

 

On 3/28/2023 at 12:57 PM, madfins said:

Hoses clamps are not the original type. 

You don't want the original type on the bypass hose, unless your main goal is points at shows. It will blow off of the hose barb at 70mph while you are passing someone. The originals work OK on all the other hoses, but I am still not a fan of them because they seem to damage the hose.

 

On 3/28/2023 at 12:57 PM, madfins said:

replacing the rear springs

You'll probably have to have them made at a spring shop. Chrysler, later on in the 60s when building police cars, towing packages, station wagons, etc. went from 6 leaves to 7 leaves. I doubt those later springs would fit directly anyway (they might), but the spring shop will have data on those later springs. That data would give you a good clue how much to increase the spring rate for a "heavy duty" application. For instance, look at the difference between 1965-68 Fury I-II-III and 1965-68 Fury Police/Towing. Increase rate by about the same percentage.

 

Welcome to the forum.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)