1910 Hup Model 20 restoration - long term project!!

[1912 Minerva]

G'day Huppers!

 

After getting a 1911 Hup Model 20 Torpedo restoration finished off and the car on the road (following the usual trials and tribulations, some of which are detailed on this forum some time back!), I came across an opportunity to acquire a significant pile of Model 20 parts (thanks to a fellow forum member!).  This seemed like a good idea as we had decided to try and drive our Torpedo across Australia and the likelihood of something major breaking seemed like a real possibility.  Fortunately, the car survived intact and running better than when we started. So, late last year I had a better look at the parts cache I had acquired. I had got 3 x chassis halves - 2 fronts and 1 rear.  A breakthrough moment was when I realised that one front half matched the rear.  I then decided maybe I should use this as the basis of a long term restoration to see if we can get another Hup on the road.  Periodically, I will try and document my efforts here.  I hope this forum is still around in 2050 or so!!

 

Cheers, Andrew.

Edited February 14, 2023 by 1912 Minerva
typo (see edit history)

[1912 Minerva]

Parts as acquired:

[1912 Minerva]

Bringing the treasure (??) home:

[1912 Minerva]

Hey, these chassis halves match:

[1912 Minerva]

Exactly what have I  got here:

Edited February 14, 2023 by 1912 Minerva
typo (see edit history)

[1912 Minerva]

Roughly where I am up to now:

 

Photo shows where I am up to now - the trial assembly stage.  The one major component I didn't have with the initial lot of parts was a differential.  Thanks to another forum member, I now have a diff.

My aims now are to 1. Get it onto its wheels. 2. Start putting an engine and gear box together.

 

For the engine, I am missing one conrod & end cap.  Does anyone have one they would be prepared to sell? If not, can an early Model T Ford one be adapted?  Failing either of these options, I figure I can get one made. 

I have a gearbox with gears but it looks like it has been used as a gold fish bowl for decades as the teeth on the tops of the gears look great while the teeth lower down are rusted away!

 

As for the rest, I am chasing:

* Any brake parts at all except for the handbrake lever and foot pedal.  I have brake shoes from another make that could be made to work at a pinch but both handbrake and foot brake would have to be arranged to work on the same shoes.

* Front axle spindles (I have a casting for the passengers side that needs machining)

* steering rack end / tie rod (I have one from another model that could be modified but an original would be best)

* steering cross arm (I got one with my initial bits but it is so rusted it is useless

* most clutch bits (I have a clutch drum)

* torque tube (I figure a Model T one could be made to work?)

* Rear transverse spring (have been making one up from a variety of old leaf springs so I can hang the diff off the chassis but an original Model 20 would be nice!)

* wishbone rods (that run from the wheel drums to the back of the gearbox)

* rear drums - some came with the bits I acquired but they are a bit bigger than the 10 inch Hup 20 ones.

* Fuel tank - I have one but it is only good for a pattern)

* Accelerator pedal (a poorly cast reproduction came with my parts which has broken - have repaired and I can use it but an original one would be great)

* Complete steering wheel spider (have enough broken pieces to make at least 2 but original complete would be great)

 

I figure most / all of these pieces can be made or adapted from a Model T Ford but would love to fit original, genuine bits where possible.

 

I have duplicates of some bits to potentially swap (eg. engine block, gear box housing, crankcase, manifolds, gear and brake levers, steering box and rack) for any of the above.

 

Thanks to anyone who has read this far!!

 

Andrew.

[Jeff Spear]

Great project! I sure could have used that crankcase a while back I was able to repair mine after much procrastination and it's good as new I think. Regarding your clutch, if you have the drum and cover I was able to machine a new hub for mine and found a ball thrust bearing for the spring to ride on that's readily available I can get you the number. I will have mine apart one more time before the final assembly and will get a spring length, diameter, and psi when compressed to working length. I see a release bearing on the floor and a non-model 20 release bearing next to it.

It seems like everybody over there has a machine shop in their shed or a friend who does I can send dimensions for machining clutch parts if needed. I may have a connecting rod I will look I think a model T rod is too long. 

[1912 Minerva]

Hi Jeff,

 

Thanks for the encouragement.  I have been watching your fabulous work restoring your car, your crankcase looks as good as new.  Always better, if possible to, repair the original part rather than replace (especially something like the crankcase with its engine number stamping).  I have the clutch drum, but that is all, so would be very interested in any photos, diagrams, details etc. for the clutch. I have a few photos from when I had my Torpedo's clutch apart but didn't take detailed measurements.  Sharp eyes on the release bearings.  The Model 20 one is rusted to a stage where i don't think it can be recovered - maybe the other one can be made to work.

If you were able to find a con-rod you could spare, I would very much appreciate it.  I wonder how hard it would be to get one made on a CNC machine?

The parts came with 2 crankshafts...I probably should crack test them at some stage to see if I need to add my order to the lot you are having made...

 

Cheers, Andrew.

[Jeff Spear]

I think that hup release bearing will be serviceable I'm sure the hard washer will need replacing but that is easy. You may want to check those cranks many are cracked from what I understand.

Also, you are limited on how much you can grind undersize on the mains due to the flywheel taper on the front. 

I would think you'll find a pressure plate the hub may be another story as they were prone to failure but as you've seen with mine they can be made. I know some drums got the snout lathed off by the thrust washers at the back of the crankcase so there are probably some bad drums around with parts. Nonetheless, I will take detailed measurements before mine goes together for good. 

I'll look for the rod this weekend making one with CNC equipment would be very feasible if needed. It wouldn't be a terrible job on a manual machine either. I also had the thought that depending on how close a T rod is.  You'll need pistons anyway and you may be able to have custom pin height pistons made to use ford rods. Custom pistons are as easy as filling out the spec sheet.  If I remember a model T rod is 7" long and about 1.5" wide journal. I think the hup is closer to 6" long. Raising a pin 1" might be pushing it to stay out of the rings ill have to do some looking next time I'm in the shop. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Jeff Spear (see edit history)

[1912 Minerva]

Well, time for a bit of an update on this project.

I seem to have decided that the priority is to get the car on some wheels.  I only have a rusty front axle and some some steering components plus a rough casting for the passenger side front spindle.  One steering component I was missing was the cap that bolts on to the end of the steering box and holds the end of the steering column in place and forms part of the housing for the pinion.  I didn't want to spend big bucks casting and machining a piece that is mainly hidden from view, so I started mulling over what I could do.  The steering cap is 30 mm deep so I had my local metal fabricator water jet cut out 3 pieces of different shapes in 10mm plate steel.  They then stack together to form the component I needed.  I figure I will just put a bit of gasket goo between each piece to hold the grease in and keep the dust out.  Hopefully the four photos tell the story as I'm not sure my words do!

1st photo shows steering box and the 3 water jet cut pieces

2nd photo shows first piece placed on steering box

3rd photo shows second piece added

4th photo shows all 3 pieces in place plus original component from my going car for comparison.

 

I hope this is of interest to some one!

 

I will do another update when I get the rest of the steering components finished and front axle assembled.

 

Regards, Andrew.

[trimacar]

Ambitious build, looks like it’s coming along though!

 

Did you ever find a connecting rod?  
 

Ihave a spare engine, or at least a part of one, haven’t been inside yet to see innards.  If I can get it apart pieces would be available.

[Fordy]

If you haven't found the rod, put some measurements on a post. If they are the same as used on series R Hupps I can throw one on board as I travel through NSW in August - I will be travelling inland from SA to Brisbane and then down via Sydney to Melbourne on the way home - All in a quest to collect some series A parts and deliver a few surplus R bits and pieces to people who need them.

[Jeff Spear]

I looked for rods I have one missing the cap but it's also bent probably because of a crank failure that I know my engine suffered in the past.

I'll keep an eye out for possible candidates for rods. Ford rods are too long. I wonder about small engine rods maybe onan I need to look at specs and see if anything is close it seems like with all the engines made in the last 100 years something might be avail that will work. 

 

Nice job on the steering box parts.

 

Jeff

 

[1912 Minerva]

Hi Huppers,

 

Well I have made a bit more progress that I thought I would share. A small milestone has been achieved in that I now have all the components for the front axle and steering.  I had a casting for the passengers side axle spindle which has been machined up.  The major piece I was missing was the steering arm.  I have had one machined up that differs slightly from the original, mainly so a ball joint housing from a Model A Ford can be screwed on.  This was done to save on machining and materials costs. It has come up well:

 

Other areas of progress have been in machining valve caps for the engine blocks.  I scored some priming cups at a local swap meet so these have been fitted and look quite nice.  I was also fortunate to find a set of wheels.  They are de-mountable Model T wheels but I have seen these used on a number of Hup 20's so I think they will be quite suitable for now.  They were actually fitted to a Brush car so some adapting is necessary to fit them to the Hup hubs but this is nearly complete.

 

 

Now I am chasing some wishbones to join rear axle to gearbox and the rear spring set.

 

Jeff, David & Fordy - thanks for your interest and offers to keep an eye out for the 4th con rod I need.  I would be certainly interested in anything that turns up.

 

Thank for reading and hopefully another update with a bit more progress sometime soon!

 

Cheers,

 

Andrew.....

Edited August 30, 2023 by 1912 Minerva (see edit history)

[1912 Minerva]

Following on and as per Fordy's suggestion above, here are some photos with a ruler showing the conrods I am chasing.  At a bare minimum, I need one with two needing to be straightened (I have one good, straight one). I guess, ideally, I would like 4 nice straight ones but beggars can't be choosers as they say!

 

Pics showing conrod, big end and original CI piston:

 

Also, I have ground the meat away from an old Model T Ford drivers side front axle spindle - simply so I can get a wheel on to make my project a roller.  The later Model T spindles with the bolt on spindle arms don't fit the Hup 20 axle (although the Hup and Ford axles look similar).  Obviously, you would never drive with this so I need to figure out what to do here at some stage.  To  machine a one piece spindle entirely out of solid metal would be expensive and difficult because it projects in all 3 axis.  I guess the solution will be to have one cast and then machine it (I already had this for the passenger side spindle).  I know the early Model T's had a one piece spindle which might fit but I would imagine they are pretty rare.  Suggestions welcome!

 

 

Andrew.

Edited August 30, 2023 by 1912 Minerva (see edit history)

[Fordy]

The R ones I have are way too big! those rods are tiny compared to them! As per prior post I am currently in Wagga Wagga and heading to Canberra tomorrow to collect a series A then head home on Friday

Edited August 30, 2023 by Fordy (see edit history)

[1912 Minerva]

18 minutes ago, Fordy said:

The R ones I have are way too big! those rods are tiny compared to them! As per prior post I am currently in Wagga Wagga and heading to Canberra tomorrow to collect a series A then head home on Friday

Thanks Fordy, I didn't think they would fit.  The Hup 20 has quite a unique motor. Travel safe and make sure you post some photos of your new acquisitions!

[Fordy]

Here you go Mr Minerva. Fun and adventure with a minor tow hitch failure this morning but soon had it sorted and loaded up the A then spent a good few hours talking to the guy we got it from. I now have serious shed envy!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by Fordy
resized images so missing ones would show (see edit history)

[1912 Minerva]

Hi Fordy,

Wow! That looks like an awesome shed - I share your envy! And a good haul of parts in the trailer too!

Thanks for posting.

Andrew.

[Fordy]

No probs Andrew - I don't know why some of the pictures I posted are black boxes - I will edit to see if the appear as images.

Steve

[1912 Minerva]

I can see them all now except the last one only shows the top two-thirds which is a shame because I have an Model A Ford like that one and would like to see more detail!

[Fordy]

For some reason that is how my phone took it. The A is a truck - I think he said it is a model A BB H where the H stands for heavy. Lots of beefed-up bits that don't look like regular A parts. Picture 5 is a better view of it.

[ROSSCOK]

Hi Andrew, I have just started a very similar project and am interested in your updates.
I purchased a heap of "20" parts about 8 years ago as I have always wanted to restore a Hupp , mainly because my grandfather owned one. ( see picture attached )

A chap here in my home town had the makings for a car and after maintaining contact with him for years, he eventually relented and sold me the bits.

Upon cleaning down the chassis I found a number and through the Australian Hupmobile Register discovered it to be my grandfather's car.

I am at present going through the parts and preparing the build. Hopefully we can make contact and share experiences and knowledge.

 

[Fordy]

10 hours ago, ROSSCOK said:

Upon cleaning down the chassis, I found a number and through the Australian Hupmobile Register discovered it to be my grandfather's car.

Bloody awesome! - what were the odds against that? 

Alan Jones does a good job on that little publication - he had big shoes to fill when Duncan Hudson passed the baton to him. - But hey I am biased as I am an Admin on their Facebook page.

Steve

[1912 Minerva]

G'day Rosscok,

 

Glad to see there is another 'nut case'  out there working on an "Ikea" Hup 20!! 😁I am actually a bit envious as generally your parts look in better condition than mine and you seem to have a more complete set of everything. Plus, your chassis doesn't seem to have been sawn in half like mine!

I don't see any springs in your pile of bits. Do you have some? I need a rear spring set.

I would love to get in touch and have sent you a message.

 

Cheers, Andrew.

[1912 Minerva]

On 9/5/2023 at 5:51 PM, 1912 Minerva said:

I don't see any springs in your pile of bits. Do you have some? I need a rear spring set.

 

 

 

Keith - a correction - I see you have a complete spring set sitting on top of the wheels in one photo!

[1912 Minerva]

Just a quick update - a friend kindly donated a seat left over from his veteran car project.  Its probably not *quite* right for the Hup 20 but it's close enough for now.  I couldn't resist doing a quick mock up tonight of how it might look.  The seat base needs to be lowered a bit to come more into proportion but I think, with some adjustment, it will look pretty good!

Little exercises like this are important, I think, to help maintain momentum and enthusiasm in a long term restoration project!

Cheers, Andrew.