4bbl Upgrade Path

[Guest]

Okay, currently I have a 350-2, and have wanted to update for awhile. At the moment there are two options I have as to where/how to obtain everything. I ask for your input on which is best to do.<P>Option 1: TA Performance Stage 1 Intake, and all recommended add-ons, with the Q-Jet coming from somewhere else I guess. The add-ons are listed on the Intake page. Total cost (minus the carb, open air cleaner & S&H) $332.50<P>Option 2: Purchase a 4bbl setup from 3rd party. Includes Intake, carb, air cleaner, fuel line, and manifold fittings. The only thing this is missing is the gaskets I think. Total cost minus S&H $375.<P>Now obviously, Option 1 is all new, #2 is used and I think would need cleaning & rebuilding.<P>So, I ask, what would you do?<P>Many Thanks!<P>-S

[Guest]

I think it depends in part on how original you want to look underhood. I did a similar thing a few years ago and went to the trouble of seeking out all the stock components to make it look totally factory. I'm now glad I did because it looks so good. Anyone can have an aftermarket special but doing it "the right way" is more satisfying to some of us, even if we're the only ones who know how much more work it involved. On the other hand if your car is already modified somewhat there is no harm in continuing that under the hood. <P>My $0.02...<P>Greg

[DugsSin]

Do you go left or do you go right, it's your call. Either choice will get you somewhere and that's what you need to decide. Where do I want to go, AACA points chaser or fun to drive cruiser. Both are fine paths.<BR> You must choose you destination first, grasshopper.<BR>Good Luck, Doug

[Guest]

Doug,<P>Thanks for the kind reply. <P>I'm no points chaser, not with this one. Just want a fun to drive cruiser with desent power AND mileage. So I think you're saying this: Points chaser = get the stock setup, Fun Cruser = get the new stuff. A fair outlook?<P>What I'd "really" like to make a destination is to drive up north for a week. haha..<P>Thank Ya!!<P>-S

[Guest]

So far everything is stock. I haven't replaced or modified much of anything outside of the pertronix setup.<P>I'm unsure if I'll modify anything. One things for sure, I'm not a sandblasting or glassblasting person so cleaning parts wouldn't be easy.<P>I'm one of those "the right way" type people, heck, the guy at the ACDelco place shutters when I walk in (ha!), but just unsure about condition of parts, the price, and the cleaning necessary.<P>Anymore thoughts?<P>Thanks!<P>-S

[GSMAG]

Cyber,<P>300 or so bucks for a setup seems awfully high. I'm sure you could get a 4 bbl intake at a boneyard for $50 or less and I have a q-jet from at 1971 Skylark I'd sell you. I'm coming up with less than $175 for ANYTHING (valley pan) else you might need coupled intake and carb. I'd look for a stock intake and q-jet. Your engine already has a lot of miles on it. Unless your are doing a complete rebuild you'd be spending a lot of cash for a part that isn't going to make a huge differnce in your performance. You might also think about replacing the lifters when you replace inthe intake. They're right there for the pickin' with it off.<P>Mike

[Guest]

Mike,<P>Thanks. Yes, $300+ seemed high to me as well. I know it won't yeild much performance improvment cept maybe on the highway (2.56 gears), but was looking at the smaller primaries for mileage.<P>Everytime I goto a boneyard (I know of only two in SunValley), I never see anything that I can use. Everything is 80's V6's and crap or you see a sea of chevy blue. The last time I went there I was lucky enough to find a late 60's Skylark, the interior was taken but amazingly the engine was still there. I couldn't see the engine size markers as it was a good deal off the ground. I had to stand on a tire just to see the engine. Then I still didn't pull anything as I didn't want to come home with parts I couldn't use. So I left that day with an ashtray mounting plate & a two other small items.<P>"I'm coming up with less then $175 for ANYTHING (valley pan) else you might need..."<P>Sorry to sound stupid, but I don't understand? <P>Engine has 92k on it. No rebuild in sight, no where near enough funds for it.<P>Lifters, Rocker Arms & Shaft. Umm, I'm sure it needs new stuff as I think thats where all my noises are comming from. Question is, how much does it cost to replace? Hard, easy, or medium job in terms of replacment? For comparison value: starter took better part of a day (few lil glitches tho), brakes, don't even go there. valve covers, 1hr.<P>You have a Q-Jet from a '71 Skylark, have any other parts that are relivant to this conversion? I'm a fan of one place for everything. Especially when the 'yards never seem to have anything. How much are ya askin?<P>I'll be waitin' fer dem der replies. :-)<P>Many Many Thanks !!!<P>-Scott

[DugsSin]

Scott, take out the word "anything" and insert the word "everything" and it makes more sense.<BR> I have small kids so I understand that language.<BR> Try placing a Buy post on this site and it might be an easy find. Good Luck, Doug

[Guest]

:-) Indeed it does make more sense, except for (valley pan). Small kids eh? Aren't they just sooo much fun. <P>If I'm then reading it correctly, Mike then has all the necessary parts for less then $175. Is that correct?<P>If so, how much for shipping? <P>If something is indeed missing, and my next run to the 'yard yeilds nadda, I'll post a wanted thread.<P>Well, thats all folks.. <P>Many Thanks Guys!!<P>-Scott

[GSMAG]

I don't have "all of the stuff" (more clear now? Sorry) you would need, I wish I did. There is a "valley pan" gasket that runs 20, 30, 40 bucks? It's a vital piece of any manifold replacement. Not your ordinay gasket, it's made of metal. There will always be those nickel and dime pieces that drive you nuts, that's where I came up with that figure. Not sure if the choke stove from a 2 bbl manifild is the same as a 4 bbl manifold, you might break a sensor, need a brass elbow, etc. as you replace the 2 bbl with a 4 bbl. You'll also want to have it hot tanked and may want to repaint it. I just wanted to give you some perspective on the dollar amounts. From reading your posts, I understand you have limits on what you are willing to spend. The extra $100 would go a long way towards thwarting the valvetrain noises you mentioned on another thread. I agree with Dougsin, post a parts wanted ad, call around. I'm sure there is an intake around for you somewhere. If you need a carb, I've got one and it isn't going anywhere any time soon.

[Guest John Chapman]

Henry,<P>For what it's worth, here's my $.02 worth...<P>Instead of a 4bbl conversion and the related expenses, how about:<P>Put the $$ toward:<P>-- resolving the suspected valve train problems<P>-- low restriction air filter (K&N)<P>-- making sure your ignition is right on<P>-- making sure the current carb is up to specs<P>I think these items will return as much economy increase on a (hummm...how to say this politely...), er, experienced engine as adding a 4bbl and manifold for a fraction of the expense.<P>JMC

[Guest]

Thanks Guys!<P>From what ya say, I should a) try the yards, post a wanted thread, c) a & b, d) hold off and fix the valvetrain first.<P>I will keep ya in mind for that Q-Jet. Honestly I didn't think it would be 'that' much hastle to do. But hey, what-do-i-know, I'm still a newbie. :-)<P>I've been wanting to get a K&N as I hear nothing but good about them. Anyone have a good place to get them?<P>Later today I will pull a valve cover and remove the rocker arm & shaft as Tom suggested, finally it's cooled off here. Is there anything special I'm looking for? Hope I can put it back on correctly. :-/<P>Ignition being right on? Hmmm, slap me silly and call me shirley but how does one tell? It starts, tho it's not easy both hot & cold. Pertronix setup is complete with new connectors, starter connections were emory-boarded during replacment. Timing varies 2 degrees 10-12*. Dwell sits at around 24-25*.<P>Carb, up to specs. If up to specs means idle screws set right, idle rpm set right, carb adjustments correct. Then yes. I fixed that during last rebuild. One thing that still has be tho is the accelerator pump adjustment. It's 1 - 15/32, but is that from the very top on the airhorn or where the airhorn cirle gasket goes? 15/32 from the very top leaves no movement I don't think for the thing. The fast idle cam rod needs straighting as it gets caught up, will fix that maybe today. Idles @ 900(park), Idle Screws are both out 2.5-3 turns each. Vac @ Idle is close to 20hg and pretty steady.<P>Can the air filter really help that much?? Would switching to an open cleaner be more helpful? This is something that just came to mind.<P>So I guess bottom line, I'm out for better mileage in the end. It's probably easier to try the cheaper things first, so that's what I'll do. But I'm not crossed the 4bbl off the list tho. :-)<P>I'll post again tonight after I pull the valve cover. Hopefully I'll get humpdy-dumbdy back together again.<P>Many Thanks Guys!!<P>-Scott<P>p.s. Henry isn't my name, just the alias on the email account.. To long time gamers, remember The 7th Guest?<p>[ 04-26-2001: Message edited by: CyberBuick ]

[Guest John Chapman]

Hey, Shirley... which guest is that? And I thought I was so clever devining 'Henry' <P>OK... Ignition... if you're getting +/- 2 degrees variation and dwell is wandering =, my bet is that the distributor has worn bushings and the drive is wobbling around a bit.<P>Pertonix... if you are using the lobe sensing version, are you running a full 12V to the primary side? Or are you still running it thru the resistor wire. Pertronix doesn't like resistor wires. Will make it hard to start. That little bit isn't on the instructions. You need 12V straight from the ignition switch to the primary terminal.<P>Yes, the air cleaner can make that much difference. Effective shade tree way... buy a K&N (Kragen has 'em... but not in the parts book. Take to old one and get as close as possible) and turn the lid of the air cleaner upside down if you can. Or get an open cleaner from the speed shop.<P>Where in SoCal are you that is so hot... one of the deserts?<P>JMC

[Gene Brink]

Scott,<P>A few things that occur to me.<P>1. A 2v 350 will be a lower compression engine than the 4v so performance gain may not be what you expect. (The 350 4v is pretty capable - even in a full sized Buick like my old '68 LeSabre.)<P>2. Assume you are talking about the remove it yourself boneyards in Sun Valley when you say there are only two yards. There are many others that pull it for you (as well as several pull it yourself yards in the valley that are smaller - names escape me right now but a few phone calls probably will find 'em). Also might be worth a short trip to Pick-U-Parts on Alameda in Los Angeles (not too far from the valley) to see what they have.<P>3. Don't forget to check out late sixties full sized Buick's as a source for 4v carb and manifold as they will fit the Skylark.<P>4. Timing varying makes me think you may have a timing gear that is about to go (drat those nylon coated things!!) and is permitting the timing variation. Or perhaps a worn distributor shaft or something. The timing should be rock solid so you may have a problem here.<P>5. Good bit of advice from John C. - the 2v engine should provide very decent performance if everything is in good order. 92k means your engine is just getting broken in!<P>Good luck,<BR>Gene

[Guest]

Thought I'd reply real quick before I head to Napa and maybe if I have to, Pepboys or something for the K&N. I do not like Kragen. The only nice guy in there is from Jamaica.<P>I'll see, I may got Kragen. Depends if I'm up for a fight.. :/<P>Shirley? haha.. Well, I asked for it.. <P>Guest? Henry Stauf wasn't a guest, he was the host. It's a very good game made way back when with graphics that IMHO, rival todays NEW games. The boy, err, you were the 7th guest. They may sell it bundled with The 11th Hour (the sequel) these days if they still sell it at all. I tend to use several nifty lil aliases.. When you've seen as much of the 'net as I have, you're glad for each one. :-)<P>I will check the distrib hold down bolt when I get back, maybe it's loose a bit? If it is the bushings, are they easily replaced? If it just involved yanking the distrib, I'll do it and replace the O-ring while I'm at it.<P>Before the pertronix setup however, there was 'no' variance.. I would be a rock steady 10* and 30* for dwell.<P>I know it likes 12v, but I didn't know how to remove the resistor wire. Nor could I of forced a new wire through the harness. Ideas??<P>It's hard starting both hot and cold which with regards to the chassis manual, doesn't offer much help.<P>I'll try for an open cleaner as I would think that's more effiecent then just changin the filter only. If not, I will try to turn the lid upside down. What does that do anyways?<P>Not today, but yesterday and the day before espeically, it was near 100's here in the san fernando valley.<P>I will look up the Pick-U-Parts on Alameda in LA, might make a trip there one day. It's closer then Anahiem. :-) I'll also add late 60's buicks to my list of interchangable parts.<P>If it has to be one of the two as the cause for variance, I hope it's the distributor!<P>It doesn't do to bad on performance, I can oust most cars. I had a 2000 VW Beetle try to race me one night. lol.. Fools..<P>92k, just being broken in. Thats what everyone seems to say.. Couldn't figure that one by me tho. haha<P>Thanks Guys!<P>I'll post again when I return & have had a crack at the rocker assembly..<P>-Scott aka Henry aka CyberBuick aka CozKramer, aka (this list goes on and on)

[Guest]

Turning the aircleaner lid upside down gives you a partial open element. The lid will now curve up, but still seal against the filter. I also must recommend getting an open element. The closed on my '73 455 was very restrictive and I noticed an immediate improvement in both performance and sound. I got a Mr. Gasket 14" for myself and it does the job. One thing. though, is that you might need to use a spacer which may interfere with the choke rod.Easy fix though with a Dremel.

[Guest]

Tonights update, early. :-)<P>I played hell with traffic here to get to Napa, here's what I found out. Everything has to be ordered for one. Rocker Arms $6.50 each, Rocker Shaft $19.99 each, K&N Filter Only $45, Valve Cover Gaskets (Tough Cork. He said it was both cork & rubber) $11.50. Couldn't get prices on the open K&N cleaner tho as it's a factory direct order. He was very nice, and I ordered the valve gasket set because mine still leak and I'll be pulling the covers tomorrow anyway. I can't or won't, pull the cover until tomorrow after I get the new gasket set for obvious reasons.<P>I headed to AutoZone for kicks. They had the K&N Filter for $36.99, so I thought, what the hell, at least it's there and it's cheaper. I also purchased a new valve breather thingy. I'm going to research a bit to see what I could get the K&N online for. If it's a worth while difference I'll get it and return this one. Why pay more when you don't have to. A question tho. Are those fair prices for everything?<P>If and when I install them I will try to flip the lid as recomended. I'll do this hopefully at my next fill up for a fair comparison.<P>I saw in the K&N book that they do have an open cleaner with a plastic(?) top designed for the Rochester 2bbl. Price was unknown as it's factory direct.<P>Hopefully tomorrow I'll have some 'useful' info to post. <P>Many Thanks To Ya Guys!!!<P>-Scott

[Guest John Chapman]

Shirley... a 'thingy'? 'THINGY!'?<P>What Buick has a 'thingy'?<P>You can take the boy outta the valley, but never can you get the valley out of the boy... well, maybe another day or so of Valley heat will do it... at least it's a dry heat.

[Guest]

Okay, for the "thingy" and currently living in the valley, I guess I walked into that one. <P>But to clarify, I was born in Beverly Hills, raised throughout California, as a kid we had moved 38 times before I was 13. I've lived most everywhere in CA. The valley however is a place I only spend a couple years in as a wee thing. The only reason I'm back is because family has friends here. Now sure, I could leave, I'm more then old enough, but much better to share expenses.. <P>Now the statement about taking the boy outta the valley is a true one. But not applicable to me. <P>If the heat I suffered the 3 years I spent in Texas couldn't take anything out of me, I doubt anything could. :-) I've never lived in a worse state then TX. Nothing against the ppl, just the state and horrid weather.<P>Well, I've checked around a bit on the K&N and it appears as tho I got a pretty decent deal.<P>I'll letcha know how it goes tomorrow..<P>And to all a good night...<P>-Scott

[Guest]

Okay guys... I replaced the old filter with the K&N. Also cleaned off the lid and flipped it upside down. I now have a nice lil roar when I get into it a bit. I did this the other night whilist at the gas station forking over my paycheck. Will know about any mpg gain within a week probably.<P>I will post this info on my engine noises thread also, but think it fits here as well. Today I finally got at my rocker cover (drivers side). I had to literally pry the cover off the head to remove. Yet the stupid thing was still leaking.. Go figure.. Anyhow, I got at the rocker arm & shaft assembly and flipped it over as Tom suggested to look for wear. I believe I found some notable wear in a couple of them. I took photos of the rocker arms & the springs. Will post them tomorrow @ website after development. Reassembly was tricky as removing one of the bolts I broke my adapter. I was able to correctly torque the first 3 bolts to 25lb, the last one, next to the brake booster I couldn't get the torque wrench into so I fiddled and think I got it to 20 then gave 'er a go with the socket wrench. Anyone have suggestions on how to get at those hard to reach bolts to correctly torque??? The new cover gaskets are thinner then the full felpro cork I used before, but they appear to have rubber and cork mixed with a metal plate of sorts running through the middle. It's napa brand. I then torqued 5 of the cover bolts and 'hoped' with the lower bolt under the brake booster.<P>It started up and ran fine with the same ticking/clicking as before but a bit more pronounced now. I will get at that side tomorrow after I get photos developed.<P>Anyone know of the special tools that make all this easier? I'll gladly get them whilist at Costco tomorrow.<P>Many Thanks Guys!!!<P>-Scott<BR>a very grateful computer geek wannabe car buff