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I guess it's my turn to make a few comments on what has been going on in the posts for the last several months. First is a short list of my involvment in the club ovet the last 16 years. I joined in 1986 at the age of 20. I beacame a life member at 31. I am past dierctor of the New England region, and served on the board of managers for 6 years. I have run two Grand Classics, and served on one Caravan commette. I have attended 15 Grand Classics, 10 Annual Meetings, seven Caravans, and have activly published articles and photos in both national and regional publications. I am a member of the club's museum, and have also attended several of the shows put on there. I am currently a member of the CCCA, Pierce Arrow Society, Cadillac La Salle Club, and the Knox Motor Car Club. I regularly attend meets all over the country. My current age is 36.

The CCCA fourm IS for CCCA members and Should be limited to CCCA approved cars. While I have no problem with someone comparing a Classic to a non-classic for quality standards, or mechinical and engineering examples, I would prefer not to hear about what a great car some "XYZ" brand car is, or about their Sunday afternoon drive in it. The recent post on J442 ? on a ride out on Long Island was great, and brought back fond memories of Dusenbergs in my past that I have driven as well as worked on. It is the type of post I would like to read more often. All classics should be driven. While a new restoration should go on the show circut, it also should be used, after all, that's why it was built.

While I enjoy ALL old cars, and have owned and restored cars from the 20's to the 70's, I do not wish to read about non-classic cars on the CCCA fourm, or in the National and Regional Publications. I no longer am active in the Cadillac LaSalle Club, as there are VERY FEW old car collectors attending their meets. At the last Grand National Awards Banquet, the gentelman sitting next to me related what a long and difficult trip it was driving in the traffic to attend the meet in his "classic". (1967 Convertible) It made me sick. I attempted to drop out of the Caddy club after 20 years of membership, but the few active old car collectors there asked me to remain a member, and so I did at their request, but no longer open most of their publications as there is nothing there for me. After 20 years of being a Cadillac Guy, I sold off all of my 1931 Cadillacs but one, and changed over to another marque that went out before the war. Now at meets I no longer have to park my multi cylender Classic next to a car that belongs on a used car lot.

For every car there is a club, weather by year, marque, era, nationality, ect. I like and enjoy Classic Era professional cars, but they belong in their own club, and not in the CCCA. I don't see their owners trying to get in to the CCCA. The reason for this is simple. They are not interested in what this club has to offer them. The same goes for RACE CARS. Cars built only for the track belong in the vintage racing clubs, not here. I enjoy seeing them at the track, but have no desire to park next to them at a Grand Classic.

If the CCCA adds new post war cars, I will no longer be an active member. I don't wish to debate the current Classic list in this post, but I think there are many cars that have been let in in the past that should not be on it. If the membership shrinks..... so be it. A smaller club with only big old cars is OK, after all, this is the place for the best of the best.

Thanks for your interest, and I am looking forward to the posts responding to my comments.

Ed Minnie II

1931 Pierce

1933 Pierce

1936 Pierce

1937 Pierce

1931 Cadillac

NON-CLASSICS NOT LISTED..... THIS IS NOT THE PLACE FOR THEM!

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Hi Edgar !

I enjoyed reading your (see above) comments and opinion ! I suspect yours will not be well-received by some, but, it IS a free country !

Those of you who are dis-pleased with Edgars comments, should recognize that although stated as his own, they appear to me to be essentially the actual RULES and POLICY of the CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA.

The CCCA is not for everyone. It was not designed for everyone. It was specifically designed for a small class of people who, (as a society matron once put it so well....) " want very little out of life....only the best...and there is so little of that...." !

Pete Hartmann

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Ed:

I knew Pete would love your post, no doubt there are many others that feel the same way. But just for the record, there are some members of the CCCA who appreciate the diversity of cars and people in the club and did not join just so their big classic would not have to park next to a smaller, inferior car.

I am now a former member of the CCCA, so it matters less to me what direction the club goes. But I am astonished at the insecurity of some of you, as if huge Packards or Pierces would go unnoticed and unappreciated at a non-CCCA car show. I am convinced that car clubs are more about people than cars, and the CCCA's policys today are more about who do we exclude rather than how can we make our club attractive and fun for new members.

Bill

Albuquerque, NM

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Buick - please...PLEASE read my "post" again. I love to go to ALL manner of "gear head" events....my old car has been kept around because it is a "driver" ...and I enjoy parking it next to, and sharing "old car" yarns, with just about ANYTHING ! I belong to a WIDE variety of "gear head" organizations, and respect the rules of purposes of all of them. Do you have a copy of John Lee's excellent article in THE CLASSIC CAR BULLETIN for MAY 2002..? Perhaps that will give you a better idea of the view of the traditional CCCA membership. I dont know ANYONE in the CCCA who is hostile to old cars of ANY type or kind !

Pete Hartmann

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Edgar, great minds think alike. A smaller club wouldn't be such a bad thing. I can live with the automobiles accepted as Classics today. However, my preference would be to terminate the Clasic era as of February 7, 1942. My first American automobile was a 1930 Pierce Arrow Model Five Passenger Sedan. From there I went to the two Classics I still possess: 1932 Cadillac and a 1933 Packard. Hopefully, I will own more Classics. But for now I'm having a ball with these two.

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Edgar: I would like to show me the exact wording and where its posted on this forum that is is for CCCA members only. This forum is being presented to the public and there for there will be people coming here who have no idea what a classic is. There we must be willing to talk to them about thier cars and educate them about the cars this club considers classic. IF WANT THIS FORUM TO BE FOR CCCA MEMBER ONLY THEN ITS TIME TO MOVE IT OUT OF THE AACA SITE. THEN PUT THE FORUM ON THE CCCA WEB SITE. Then make it for members only and set up a password system. I am for keeping the CCCA as it is now, but to try to restrict this web site is wrong. Yes Edgar I am a dues paying member who doesn't own a classic, but is quite well educated about the classic. Some of the people in here who want to restrict this site and are members of the CCCA know dang little other than their car is a classic.If you want to the forum and restrict it then I have no problems with that. You and one other person is this forum are dead wrong

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The last part of my prior post should have read like this. If you want to move the forum the CCCA web site and make it for members only, then I have no problem with that.

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I must have missed something...I am not aware that anyone suggested this site be closed to non CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA members.

I hope that we would all welcome anyone with a sincere interest in classic cars and what the CCCA is about. Given the fact that the caption of this site is so clear, and in "BOLD CAPS"

" . . . PLEASE LIMIT POSTS IN THIS FORUM TO DISCUSSIONS

ABOUT THE CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA, AND THE CARS THE

CCCCA RECOGNIZES AS CLASSICS........"

it seems to me it is reasonable to wonder whether a person is sincere who comes in here pushing their views instead of cooperating with CCCA policy.

Of course we all from time to time enjoy a little humor and cross-reference to our related car hobbies, but we should keep in mind this IS a site for the CCCA, and its policies and rules are clear.

Given the CCCA's very limited scope and exclusivity, it is understandable that some car buffs have been and will be "put off" by this. Some CCCA members have worked long and hard to get our policies changed, with some limited success. Others, such as myself, believe very strongly in the Club's stated

policy that

" LICENSE TO PERMIT DILLUTION IS LICENSE TO DESTROY THE

ORGANIZATION THRU DMINULATION OF THE HIGH VALUES AND STANDARDS

WE HAVE SET....."

I really doubt if Planet Earth will wobble on its axis just because some fellow elects to ignore our rules, and "posts" his non classic car, or non classic views in the CCCA "site".

However, "fair is fair", and "due process" regs. regarding "fair comment" make it mandatory that, just as a person is free to come in here and violate those rules, we are equally free to comment on them. Interference in the "fair comment" rule will be dealt with severely.

Pete Hartmann

Big Springs, Arizona

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It was my idea to open up the general forum to discussions that dont always center on a specific CCCA car, I felt that CCCA members, or guests, should be able to talk about whatever they wish, without fear of reprisal. those 4 words are the key words here. It seems to me that most of the negative posts on this board center around certain people jumping on anyone who varies ever so slightly off of the "approved" subjects. by removing these barriers, hopefully we remove the tendancy of some members to act like traffic cops in enforcing these barriers, even though they have not been empowered to do so.

i also felt that this forum goes wanting for posts generally speaking. this is a pretty slow moving forum. either lots of people are lurking and not posting or responding, or very few people in our club come here at all. I think the former. and felt that maybe if we loosened it up a bit, it would become more active.

The moderators would continue to move totally inappropriate non CCCA stuff to the appropriate forum, this normally occurs more in the other areas of the forum, like buy/sell, tech and judging.

If the membership, Board, or users of this forum which I suspect is a smaller subset of the membership, don't want to go this direction, then we wont go this direction. The fact this thread was posted by a non registered user is a good thing. hopefully he will come here more often and continue to post well thought out threads such as this one.

As far as rank and file users taking it upon themselves to make "fair comment" on inappropriate posts I think this has gone too far. The moderators really cant make monitoring this board a full time job, it certainly doesn't pay enough to make my mortgage <img src="/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

When i took over 7 days ago I thought if I came here for half an hour once a day it would suffice. As it is now I have maybe an hour after an erroneous post before our self appointed traffic cop jumps on the often unwitting offender. We even have people getting jumped on for discussing CCCA approved cars for god sake <img src="/ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" /> This type of activity runs the risk of ruining the reputation of our club in cyberspace. We dont want to be seen as absolute jerks which is the way this is coming off.

Therefore, I am fully prepared to be dealt with severely, as I will continue to interfere with the inalieble right some people feel to chastise others in the name of "fair comment". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Shawn Miller

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My first post to this website was in response to a query as to how to stimulate interest in the CCCA. I indicated that I have never felt welcome at CCCA events given the "Lesser Classic" status of my Packard 900. I was once involved in a dog club that followed the same path, limiting discussion to show dogs only, discriminating against those with "less than show quality" though equally pedigreed animals. They too wondered why they had trouble recruiting and keeping members. I agree, the 900 is not in the same league with a Duesy or Packard 12 but it wasn't my decision to admit them to CCCA status. Reminds me sometimes of the old song... " We belong to a mutual...admiration society..." So far I've not seen much on this website to entice me into rejoining the CCCA. I can tell you this; I've recently restored 3 classics for clients, none of them found the CCCA relevant to their level of interest in the hobby, one quit specifically because he felt unwelcome with his '47 Cadillac. He now is a very active participant in AACA and CLC events. Please don't expand the universe of cars you accept. Please Do expand the universe of people you accept.

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Gentelmen: Im my post I never said anything about CCCA members only, and if this was a requirment of this board, it should be on the CCCA website. So I agree with with that part of Packard 53s comments. I also never said Inferior car. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A INFERIOR CAR! Cars, like people are all different. Another comment refered to a "lessor Classic", I consider his 900 Packard a fine car, and as I am not a Packard expert, don't know the difference from a 900 , standard eight, or super eight, but I do know they are all fine automobiles. I once spent a fine summer day driving a late 30's 110 Packard woody. At the time I didn't know it was a six. That speaks loud and clear on ALL Packards of the era. They are very fine cars Classic or not.

All I ask of people about their comments, that are made in this fourm, is that they be kind in spirit, as we are here to have fun , and hopefully learn something new and possibly make some new "gear head" friends. I find almost all the active posters interesting and think they would be fun to meet at any show or tour, and I hope sometime in the future to be able to meet some of them.

And now a few more rambelings, Last summer I went on a tour in the upper midwest. Due to an auto accident my regular car buddy couldn't make it, so I set off by myself. When I arrived at the meet I let it be known (as usual) that anyone attending the meet was invitrd to ride in my car in any available seat. So for each day of the four day tour I had three extra seats. Each tour was from 100 to 200 miles long. The first day I had a 90 year old gentelman who worked for Pierce Arrow for 7 years. He told us about trips to the factory, cars he deliverd new, and about the people he worked with some 70 years ago. It was more fun than you can imagine. He also worked for Stutz for a short time. In the rear seat was a couple from the deep south. Even though we all had nametags on they called me "Yankee". But I think after several hours they were no longer holding it against me that we won the war because they had called their daughter on the cell phone and were trying to set us up for a dinner date the next week! It was a great time. Day two turned out great also. I let someone else drive my car the entire day, and I was able to enjoy the back seat of my car while it was moving, somthing I only get to do several times a year. He (the driver) had been a member of several car clubs for the past 20 years but had never driven or owned anything but some 30's v-8 Fords and a small 32 Chrysler. He must have liked the way that old Pierce 12 went, because by the end of the day he bought my 35 Pierce club sedan I had posted for sale on the meets bulletin board. OK now my point to all of this..... By sharing my Classics with others many good things come out of it. New members for the club, new owners for a car, and most of all...... a good time for everybody.

Thanks again for your comments. Have a great Thanksgiving, Ed.

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Shawn :

I am confused by portions of your post. In case you hadn't noticed, this "site" IS "opened up" to anyone. Anyone, with a "click" of their mouse, can enter here and post whatever they wish. That is not the issue, and I can't imagine anyone suggesting we try and change that.

What IS the issue, is whether YOU, Gariepy, and Conrad, should take it upon YOURSELVES to change Club policy on your own, without going thru the appropriate formal representative process.

Anyone is free to come in here, ignore the very specific "caption" ( which I will repeat again, in case anyone has missed it )

" . . . PLEASE LIMIT POSTS TO DISCUSSIONS ABOUT

THE CCCA, AND THE CARS IT CONSIDERS CLASSIC...."

You are being intellectualy dishonest...what YOU want, is to STOP people from commenting in response, when some character comes in here, and for whatever reason, chooses to ignore our Club's policy requests.

Let me make an anology. This "site" is that of a private club. This would be similar to a private club renting a room inside a larger structure owned by the AACA. We have a sign on the door of that private room, which tells people what our preferences are, once you step inside that door. Perhaps you havn't thought it thru, but what you are telling us INSIDE that room, is that YOU personally dont LIKE that sign we have on our door, and do not want us, the private membership inside, to have the right to comment when someone barges into our private room, and ignores our customs and rules.

Think it thru...Shawn...you are WAY off base on this.

Pete Hartmann

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Peter

You've convinced me. I ain't gonna join the CCCA, I'm gonna unscrew the National First prize plaque from J446, (The hubris of the person who screwed on in the first place is beyond me. It certianly didn't come from the Duesenberg Factory with that plaque screwed into it) and I'm going else where. The idea that threads should be moved or deleted if they meander and flow into discussion of things not on the CCAC' approved list makes me, as the younger internet useres would say:LOL.

G'BY

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Edgar....I am not picking on you personally; I hope you will not be offended if I use you as an example of how "times have changed". Your admission that you cant tell the difference between a Packard "Light/Standard Eight"...and a Super Eight...or a Packard Six, tells us a lot about how the old car hobby in general, and some of the membership of the CCCA in particular, has changed.

And it also explains why guys like you and Shawn are sometimes puzzled by the attitude of what you guys see as "hard liners".

I would HOPE that at any car show, fellow car buffs would see you as an individual who HAPPENS to have an old car, and deal with you on your own merits as a human being. That goes without saying.

But the FACT is, assuming the cars are maintained in proper condition, there is a TREMENDOUS difference in cars of different price ranges. Packard, and the other manufacturers of the "biggest and the best"...did NOT de-fraud their customers ! While a one thousand dollar Packard (or, for that matter, ANY American car) was a terrific buy for the money, to say that it is in the same league as a five thousand dollar car ( remember...folks...you have to multiple these numbers by about 22 to get their present dollar value ) is simply absurd, and ignores the whole concept of why the CCCA was formed in the first place.

Permit me to brag to this limited extent - those of us who saw worth and value of the "biggest and the best" of the luxury cars of the classic era, really were "on to somethng" special. That we were so successful in finally educating the public that these "road locomotives....engineering exaggerations...magnificently over-done" were a land-mark, is obvious by the clamor, soon after we started out as a club, for all manner of people with "lessor"..yes...LESSOR cars, to get their cars "accepted" into classic status.

And that IS the problem. If you had just driven a Packard Standard / Light Eight, then jumped into the much more powerful Super Eight, and put the gas pedal to the floor.... you would durn well know what Packard gave its customers...for MUCH more money....!

I am not critisizing you personally for your admitted lack of understanding about what was so much greater, about the really great cars of the classic era. But perhaps in your own admission, you see my point...you guys need to LISTEN a bit more, and get the "chip off your shoulder".

It is normal and natural, if you dont have one yourself, to be a bit "put off" by the "arrogant elegance" of these marvelous carriages of the upper class. that IS the way it is. Life CAN be unfair. Now learn to deal with it in a mature manner. Stop taking your irritation about the ineqaulities of life, on ME !

Pete Hartmann

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Pete:

That you can't see J446's point shows exactly what the problem is.

Suggest you lighten up and step down from your unelected position as forum monitor. The only thing you might accomplish is to drive away still more contributors from the CCCA and this forum.

Reminds of the the kid in school always asking the teacher to do something about the rowdy boys who won't follow the rules....

Happy Thanksgiving!

Bill

Albuquerque, NM

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Buickplus, I just realized you are in Albuquerque. I am trying to locate my 1932 Cadillac's history. It was shipped from Detroit on October 25, 1932 by Packard Motor Car Company (that's how the build sheet reads!) to your hometown of Albuquerque on Octber 25, 1932 to New Mexico Motor Corp. Only nine Cadillacs were sold in New Mexico in 1932. It's possible that there maybe a newspaper article about the new proud owner picking the Cadillac up. Do yo have any suggestions as to historical associations or newspaper archives I could contact?

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J446: There are 5,800 members of CCCA. If you require everyone to agree with your position or you are going to pick up your marbles and play elsewhere, then now is a good time to go. Otherwise stick it out, you will probaby find more than a few members who agree with you.

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NOTE:

Hartman, nowhere have i said that this forum should be opened up to non-CCCA vehicles. I SPECIFICALLY demanded that (and it was ment for YOU) people who post non-CCCA related threads not be chastised. Let the moderators deal with non-CCCA related posts.

My email to you clearly states that. If i see you do it again you will be BANNERED. IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH?

Peter

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Restorer 32: (Wow, am I being verbose today!) I joined CCCA in 1990. My 1932 Packard Twelve Convertible Sedan was just starting to be restored. I met some of the most obnoxious people I had ever met in my life. But I also met some of the nicest people I could ever hope to meet. Fortunately, the nice vastly outnumbered the obnoxious. Be patient, you'll find the overwhelming majority are interested in all Classics, including your Shovel Nose.

Postscript: From 1978 to 1985 I had a 1960 Jaguar XK-150S OTS 3.8 Litre (nc). Since 1976 I have been driving a 1973 Jaguar E-Type Convertible Series III (nc). Also I have a lesser Classic, viz.: 1932 Cadillac V8 All Weather Phaeton. By the way, do you know the secret handshake a CCCA mmbers who own lesser Classics?

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Restorer 32: (Wow, am I being verbose today!) I joined CCCA in 1990. My 1932 Packard Twelve Convertible Sedan was just starting to be restored. I met some of the most obnoxious people I had ever met in my life. But I also met some of the nicest people I could ever hope to meet. Fortunately, the nice vastly outnumbered the obnoxious. Be patient, you'll find the overwhelming majority are interested in all Classics, including your Shovel Nose.

Postscript: From 1978 to 1985 I had a 1960 Jaguar XK-150S OTS 3.8 Litre (nc). Since 1976 I have been driving a 1973 Jaguar E-Type Convertible Series III (nc). Also I have a lesser Classic, viz.: 1932 Cadillac V8 All Weather Phaeton. By the way, do you know the secret handshake of CCCA members who own lesser Classics?

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Pete, before you get your foot surgically removed from your mouth, you might consider who wrote your favorite quote:

" . . . PLEASE LIMIT POSTS TO DISCUSSIONS ABOUT

THE CCCA, AND THE CARS IT CONSIDERS CLASSIC...."

I did it. I can also arrange to have those words removed. They were not something handed down by the founding fathers on a stone tablet. They are at the top of the page because it is indeed our policy in printed publications like The Classic Car and The Bulletin. The thought seems logical here as well, but it turns out to not be very practical. The problem is, unlike printed publications that we can control; the Club has no effective way to dictate what is posted on the Discussion Forums. This is a public place. The best we can do is delete posts after the fact. Unfortunately, deleting them does very little to convince the public that we are not jerks. 99% of CCCA members are not jerks. They are really nice, wonderful people. I?ll leave the other 1 percent up to your imagination, but the truth is we are no different from any other organization. There?s always one in every crowd.

You further say:

?What IS the issue, is whether YOU, Gariepy, and Conrad, should take it upon YOURSELVES to change Club policy on your own, without going thru the appropriate formal representative process.?

I take personal offense to that comment. At every National Board of Directors meeting I report to the Board about the trials and tribulations of the web site. That?s eight times per year. I have done what I have done with the approval of the National Board of Directors. I think even you would have to agree that I am ?going through the formal representative process.? The Board is intelligent to enough to recognize that this is a new medium and it has given me approval to try ideas as I see fit, but they are most definitely kept ?in the loop.? If the Board doesn?t like something, we don?t do it. In fact, most of the Board members surf by here from time to time, so they are generally aware of what goes on, even if they choose not to directly participate. Nobody here is trying to change the basics of the Club. We are simply grappling with the problem of dealing with a communications medium that is unlike anything anyone has ever seen. Perhaps you could do a better job. If so, PLEASE run for the Board.

In the past when a similar discussion has erupted, I have offered to put a private ?CCCA Only? message board on the CCCA web site. Not one person indicated that it might be a good idea, or asked that I do it. In fact, before we partnered with my friends at AACA on this joint forum, we had such a private forum. It was a very lonely place. Even so, the offer is still open.

Of course, we could just shut down the Forums. That would be easy, but I certainly don?t see that as a positive move. Do you?

For those of you who have not been here since the DF?s inception, maybe a little history is in order. Peter Gariepy, the AACA Web Master, and I both serve on the same AACA Committee. We?ve known each other for some time. A few years ago, when I?d recently landed on the CCCA National Board of Directors I was assigned the task of setting up the Club?s Web Site. I?d never done that before, so I asked Peter for advice because he had been the AACA?s Web Master, since their site?s inception. We exchanged a lot of hints and tips and both wondered if there might be a way for different clubs to hold ?Joint Meets? in cyberspace. Peter came up with this Discussion Forum, which is indeed hosted on AACA?s file server. AACA, BCA and CCCA were the first clubs to participate in this adventure. The list has certainly grown. All in all, I think it has been pretty successful, but we do have problems, which we are all aware of.

Doing this single-handedly has done a good job of burning me out personally. Having to check the forum two or three times a day and putting out flame wars is not easy, nor is it pleasant. Last week, Shawn Miller volunteered to help me out with these duties. The Forums are now his baby. I really appreciate the help.

Now, I think we are all guilty of taking this way too seriously. I have two rules about car clubs.

1. This is a hobby. It is supposed to be fun.

2. If it is not fun, refer to rule Number 1.

This is only a web site. Get a grip. If you want some reality in your life, go play with your cars. But don?t accuse people of things that are not true.

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Chuck !

Glad to see your most recent "post"...looks like we are in complete agreement and share common understandings after all.

Now go explain to Gariepy that we all agree we can not, should not, do not want to, and never contempated limiting people who come into this site from posting what THEY want. Also explain to him that his threat to censor people who have views different from his, is quite childish and unbecoming a moderator.

Pete Hartmann

and...HAPPY TURKEY DAY TO ALL !

P.S.. Thank you for your suggestion that I get back into CCCA management....getting WAY too old...and MUCH too ugly.....!

PPS....Does Katie still come to the Board Meetings..? If so...next time you see her..give her my best....!

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Geesh! I take a day off and look what happens! Yeah i know I had it coming by instigating this with my pointed responses to peter's diatribes wink.gif

I really think you should be banned from this forum, peter. You are the only real spoiler here that I see. sorry to be blunt but I have danced around this for the last 5 days and have basically had it! its thanksgiving for god sake!We are losing members and potential members as a result of this noise. enough already! find another cyber place to haunt and leave us alone.

If you cant find some nice things to say and leave the moderation of the board to the moderators, you are outa here. this is your final warning. one more condescending remark, rule book misquotation, comment aobut "lesser" cars, will not be tolerated. You are on, as Miles Brand would say, "a zero tolerance" probation. if you are banned and come back as an anonymous poster I will make it a personal mission to delete everyone of your posts the instant they are put up here. it is easy enough to identify them before even reading your signature.

Part of what we celebrate my being members of this club is the classic era in general. People didnt yell at each other, at least not in public, during the classic era. The classic era was a more genteel time and I think that we need a break from the hectic everyday world we inhabit now, and that is why many of us collect these cars, are members of this club, and come here. Right now this forum does not reflect that aspect of the club and if it takes axing those that cause trouble so that we can move forward, so be it.

Shawn Miller

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Shawn:

You have well-stated your position on a number of issues pertaining to the old car hobby in general, and CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA policies in particular. I can't imagine any responsible CCCA member suggesting that your views should be silenced, just because you may not agree with someone else's interpetation of what CCCA Rules and policies are, or should be.

I suggested earlier that we might think of this "site" as a "room" in a building owned by others. The "owner of the building" should and does have some reasonable minimum "safety standards" about what we do in that "room".

For example, it goes without saying that language falling below the minimum standards of ordinary society should be removed. It also goes without saying that within that room, as a private club, we do have a right to ask that our Club Rules be respected by visitors, and a right to comment on those who do not respect these Rules.

I am sure we are all grateful to you and Chuck for taking your personal time to assist in the operation of this marvelous form of communication. Please remember that "communication" is a TWO WAY STREET.

Dissatisfaction with the CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA'S stated objectives and rules, and efforts to change or dillute it, are legitimate views. You are well aware I am of the "conservative" faction that vigorously defends these rules. Again, I do not recall seeing a single "post" by any of our members asking that we terminate the ability of those who do not acknowledge our rules and views, from coming in here and posting either their views, or and/information about cars they want to sell.

However, your and Gariepy's statement that members of the CCCA should be forbidden to comment on violaters of our long-established policies, is not consistant with responsible moderationg. It is a new and alarming concept I do not recall being expressed by anyone in CCCA management in the past.

I have received a number of private E mails from fellow CCCA members, some of whom are former, and some of whom are present CCCA officers, who share our mutual view that this forum is a marvelous form of communication. Hopefully, you will take a deep breath, think thru what you said in your above post, and join us in a free expression of ideas relating to the CCCA, and thus put to rest the concerns of an increasing number of CCCA members as to this alarming proposal.

Peter Hartmann

Big Springs, Az.

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Peter,

I don't know where you get the opinion I am some sort of wannabee person who wants to "dilute" the purpose of our club. I am sure the good people of the Indiana Region would not have me as director if this is so. I have tried to ignore your personal attacks about what I beleive, which is ludacrous, since you have never met me, never spoken to me at length, never sent me emails off the site or anything. you dont know me. dont act like you do.

To take your room in a big hotel analogy to where we really are at this point:

we all would be sitting a such a room, and would have a larger rabid pit bull (you) parked by the door. Any unwitting or curious soul who ventured in to see what was up with us would instantly have his leg bit off! Once word got around not to open our door, and traffic dropped off, you would then starting biting all of our legs off!

I thought after I posted this last post that I was really being too kind by giving you another chance. You really need to publically apologize to a lot of people here, particularly restorer 32, j446, ed minnie, and chuck conrad just on this thread alone.

I find it hard to beleive that everyone is upset you are being threatened with expulsion. That's not what I am hearing. If that is the way people feel they need to rally to your side now, publically, in this forum. You are on really thin ice here.

Shawn Miller

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Shawn:

I disagree with your last "post's" suggestion. I discourage anyone from wasting the reader's time with "personality contests". Let's devote our energy to exchanging views relating to the CCCA, and the cars we are interested in. Let's remember "exchange of views" is a major function of this method of communication. No-one's interests are well served by permitting any view to stand without challenge, mine included.

Pete Hartmann

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Ok So i guess this is where we are:

You have been warned by the ADMINISTRATOR of this site to stop harrassing people and basically refuse to do so.

You have been asked pointedly by the 2 MODERATORS forum to stop harrassing people and basically refuse to do so. you have personally attacked several people on this thread alone, refuse to acknowledge the hurtful and obnoxiuos nature of your statements, and refuse to apologize for anything you have said, or any miscommunication you have caused.

Do I have it right then?

Shawn

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Shawn:

I support what you are trying to do and appreciate your sharing the responsibility of monitoring this forum. I am a local and national officer in one of my other car clubs and know how hard it is get volunteers to step forward and take on jobs with the club.

I do not think PH should be banned from the forum. I disagree with him on just about everything and for months I have conciously not responded to any of his posts. I know he will merely spit back his usual heavily capitalized diatriabes and he is not the sort of person who wants to hear much feedback other than what supports his positions.

But, the internet is an open forum by design, and like it or not, PH represents his own views and those of a few others in CCCA rather eloquently. His blatently offensive posts should be removed, but I don't think the forum needs to be protected from his rather predictable views. I think anyone here should feel free to remind PH or anyone else if their postings might be damaging or hurtful to the CCCA, the hobby, or visitors to the forum. Do you hear that Pete? Take one from me and J446's visceral reaction -- your commentary is often offensive and makes folks want to get as far from this club as they can!

The fact is, the CCCA and the collector car hobby has many interesting issues that beg discussion on this forum and banning those who are offensive I do not think will be helpful. This is a new medium, I suggest you let it regulate itself. If it does not, then I concurr completely with any decision to lock out PH for some probationary period.

All the best

Bill

Albuquerque, NM

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Buick:

Thank you for your support of the right to comment on opposing ideas, but, again, I say this to you, and to the other chatters - let's focus our energy on old-car related issues.

On a thorough review my posts, I am unclear as to how any of these could have offended anyone with a serious and mature interest in classic-car issues. If you feel that a further discussion of any of the technically related issues I raised in any of my posts, would be of use to the readers of the forum, I would be pleased to go into them further with you.

However, again, and I say this to all of you..we are wasting the other readers time by going into "popularity contests". Let's work on utilizing this forum's advantages.

Pete Hartmann

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Shawn, if this is how you want to increase membership then I can understand why you are fed up with Peter. Why don't you just advocate every car be allowed into the CCCA then you'll not have to worry about membership. Dilution will be a bit of a problem. But it won't be the club it is now...and I like it the way it is. Too bad I can't make you happy but I'm tired of people coming here and compaining that their car isn't a recognized Classic or expecting everyone in the club to be friendly to them.

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not sure what you are talking about here, but for the record, I was happy with the end date being 1942. I don't think we should add later cars to the list, the club is not at all broke in my opinion, and we don't have membership problems that I am aware of, I think we are at an all time high.

I do think that this forum is broke. I think it is giving our club a bad name. Disagreeing with someone is one thing, but nasty comments are another. Running people off does nothing to help educate people about why our cars are special, and why we only recognise certain cars.

I could care less if you like me (don't know how you would know my viewpoints since I havent really stated them here) but I am not about to attack you personally for your positions. If everyone remains civil there would be no reason to open things up a bit (I was only suggesting relaxed rules governing discussion on the general forum only, I have never advocated taking in later or more pedestrian cars). The problem in my opinion isn't the subjects its the tendancy to beat people up for talking about "lesser" cars that are approved by the club, or talking about other cars at all.

Shawn

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Eddie...and Shawn..I disagree with your "posts" in the following respects:

First of all...Eddie....I am not "tired" of the strangers who come in here with all manner of odd vehicles and ideas that may or may not be consistant with our Club's policies. I think it gives us a marvelous opportunity to both learn from them and teach them something. I personally am going to make an effort to do a better job of "reaching out" to them. Of course we may drive some of them away - as i have noted, this Club is NOT for everyone. I will make a better effort to make some "converts" out of these passer-bys....

Secondly, I would like to point out that Shawn is doing something that I am no longer willing to do...unselfishly devote his time to advancing the Club's interests. I am certain we are all grateful to his efforts.

Of course I and some others disagree with some of his statements, but let's all try and phrase our comments in such a way that we have a clash of ideas, not of personalities. I suspect if we all got together over a few beers, we'd have a riot of a time, and find that our similarities outweigh our differences.

On reflecton, I will BET that Shawn agrees with us that we all benefit from the challenge of ideas relating to our Club. Let's work on that, and stop boring the rest of the readersw with references to individuals.

Pete Hartmann

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Mike:

I agree that this thread should probably be left to die. But just for the record to Eddie and others, very few regulars on this forum have advocated expanding the full classics list, and I sure don't recall hearing Shawn say that.

I am one that has often advocated expanding the list, even though there are few supporters for it on this forum. Whenever supporters do speak, they are usually battered pretty hard for even suggesting it. Nevertheless, I think there is more support out there among members, and I still think it will happen eventually. I assume when it does happen the club will do it well and thoughtfully

Bill

Albuquerque, NM.

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Bill :

I most certainly DO disagree with you about "expanding the list", and I do hope as many as possible of my fellow CCCA members agree with me. But be assured I look foward to meeting you in person some-day soon, and exchanging views on old car issues in person. I certainly hope you fellows will all accept a little challenge to your ideas, from any quarter, without interpeting them as personal confrontation. We ALL have a lot to learn in here, and all can benefit from a lively discussion ( just because I think that anything that dosn't have " PACKARD TWELVE " on its hub-caps should be crushed and sent to Japan to make into something useful..is no reason to think I am bigoted or narrow minded.....! )

Pete Hartmann

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Hi Mike...and welcome to our "site".

I disagree with Buick - I do NOT think this or any other topic be allowed to die, so long as someone would like to inquire about it. Mike...any questions you have will be welcome and get the best responses we can give. DO expect to have your opinions challanged - but, that is the best way to either keep your opinon if you remain convinced of its value, or decide that you need to modify or change it based on new info. We all benefit from that.

Tell us more about what YOU think about Classic Car Club-related issues, and let's RUMBLE ! Face it, we are all a bit nuts, or we wouldn't be bothered with old cars in the first place ! Join the party !

Pete Hartmann

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While a Packard Club (PAC) but not CCCA member, like many of you, i've friends in both --and many other disparate auto clubs, and enjoy perusing these posts. But w h y all the vitriol from outsiders? CCCA clearly states its objectives as you enter their website, as they have in their interesting publications since 1952. Many of us have owned chariots classic and not, and can appreciate all cars without resorting to a demolition derby. So why are so many of you visiting a site open to all, sponsored and staffed by gentlemen as unpaid labor of love, only to insist, d e m a n d, they accept your particular automobile? There are, literally, hundreds of car club websites. Why do some of you pick on one of the more nicer ones in Cybercity, the CCCA, and insult them. The CCCA is j u s t a c l u b, albeit an interesting one. It was founded in 1952 by a few then young fellows who admired the halcyon boulevard dreadnaughts

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I wasn't finished w/ my post, almost, but not quite, and there were some typos, etc. Could you please return it to me, or tell me how to retrieve it before you post it, please?! I want to correct it, add a closing line. Thank you. Mike Scott mike-exanimo@juno.com (I was commenting on all the people who attack the CCCA for not recognizing their particular buggy.)

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