Guest Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 I'm not really Anonymous--just can't remember my password!What does the torque tube do other than cover up the drive shaft? Does it really control torque--twisting action--on either the rear axle or trannsmission? Or does it control fore and aft thrust? If you found the correct yokes, etc, could you convert it to an open driveline? Will the long braces (forgot the technical name) be sufficient to handle the fore-aft locating task?And if you relocated those braces to a crossmember, AND if you found the right transmission adapter, could you run a nailhead, a modern tranny and driveshaft, and still retain the stock rear end?(I need to solve a tranmission problem, but I don't have the skills or funds to get a new rear end suspension built at the same time.)Thanks,Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTIN Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 You are a boob!Can someone please send him a picture showing both types of setups?I asked before and didnt understand the answer so I felt dumb and waited for someone else to ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 The torque tube AKA Third Member helps to dampen rear axle wind-up under hard acceleration. It also makes for a stiffer drive train which tends to improve the ride. In a very general sense it is a design for greater strength and stability thru out the car and its operating ranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 So how do vehicles with an open driveline handle that windup (torque)? Different rear end geometry?Justin--you caught me. I am a "BOOB"--a member of the "Brotherhood Of Oil Burners" over at ford-diesel.com Soon to be known as TheDieselStop.Com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 most cars with TT have coil springs (not ford). Cars without TT (open driveline) use 2 longitudinal leaf springs to help control wind-up as well as afford spring action. Some cars with coil and Open drive shaft use trailing arms or sometimes called torque arms. I think u mentioned these in the first post. There is alot more to this than just axle wind-up and ride control. There are also forces involved in braking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 i got a few minutes:under hard acceleration OR braking the rear axle tries to spin in the OPPOSiTE direction of the wheels. BUT, with a 3rd-member this exacerbates front end lift and nose dive. Because: the rear axle is actualy driving thru the motor mounts in the front. During the horse power revolution of 1955 most auto makers got away from the 3rd-member design in order to control nose dive and lift. ALSO because it is more expensive to manufacture. Nose dive and lift CAN be counteracted by other design characteristics such as rearward skewing of the upper fron control arms and so-forth. Again, there is ALOT to suspension design that is probably alot more info than u want or than what i can give.SOMEONE else?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 Man, I hope I dont need any advice from the boob club! The torqur tube only covers the drive shaft from road grime the reson for the tube was simple. the u- joints were oiled from the transmisson. so the answer to your second question would be no. for no other reason than there would be know way to spot the trans from oiling. There is a small hole in the bottom of the tanny. besides no one makes yokes for this applacation Ive tryed. And for torque. the panhard bar controls troque on your car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 In case the site doesn't detect my login, as seems to happen a lot lately, I am logged in, and I'm 53and61.Torque tube suspensions are fundamentally different from open drives in that the torque tube transmits forward driving force from the differential to the transmission; this force is transmitted to the frame at the thrust pad behind the transmission. The torque tube also carries reaction torque at the rear axle--without the tube the differential housing would tend to spin in the opposite direction as the axles. The lateral position of the differential housing is maintained by a pivoted radius rod that runs roughly parallel to the axle housing. In the open design, both the force that pushes the frame along and the reaction torque are transmitted to the frame by control arms that connect the differential housing to the frame. I've heard of conversions in which the torque tube is eliminated and the long diagonal strut rods are swung out laterally and connected to the frame with big rubber bushings. Of course, the rear end of the transmission then has to be changed or its back end sealed, and a conventional open drive shaft and U-joints must be fitted. Seems like a lot of trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radionut98 Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 Hey PeterG, this seems to one of those tech questions that needs to be inthe tech forum BUT, then I would never have been able to read it cause I'ma illiterate and don't know how to get into the tech forum. Please leaveit here on this forum. Thanks Buddy. Loren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.. well now. It looks like we have varying opinions! 2wo (8:46 AND 1:44 posts) that confer as 'boobs' and one (5:45) that is a cost control expert. If they wanted to lube the joints they would have put in a cheap grease zerk. If they wanted to keep them clean then there would have been no reason for a full length 3rd member, only a partial at each end. Jeeeeez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 I, Guess im the cost control expert. And I guess you have never had a torque tube apart your grease fitting wouldnt work because there is nothing to grease. The joint is an open design, no needle bearings. Just a cross shaft and 4 bushings. And the rear is pinned to the pinion with no seal.So again the torque tube was to keep road grime out and lube the front joint!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capgage Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 I suggest that you crawl under your 50's BUICK torque tube car, and see what you think might happen if you were to remove the torque tube, (assuming you could find a way to hold the rear end oil and transmission fluid in.), put the driveshaft back in, start your car up, put it in drive, and go.Now, while you were under there, I hope you were able to locate the panhard bars that transmit the thrust of the rear end to the frame, prevent the rear axle from trying to spin backwards as the wheels drive forward, and prevent the whole car from rolling (tilting) to the right as you accelerate. Cause if they are not there (they are not), well, you are in for some interesting effects as your rear tires slam in to the front of the fender wells, your driveshaft pushes into your transmission and rear end (possibly desroying both), etc.But wait, I forgot - the radius member could handle all that, right?Sorry for the smart a$$ remarks, but you are just begging for it by talking so big about something of which I guess you THINK you have knowledge, but which you do not. Just go look at a Buick, like I said."So again the torque tube was to keep road grime out and lube the front joint!!!" - and many other things, my friend (see above). Not just that.Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Mark, sounds like I hit a nerve with you. Sorry. I wasnt talking about the comments you wrote. And Im not the one that called these guys boobs they did I just agree, And for my knolage of the torque tube design and funtion Im pretty comfortable with me knoledge. I was trying to keep the original guy from geeting some bad advice, I already tryed to convert one to an open drive shaft so I know were he was going and what was unvolved. It would take to many one off peaces to make it work.Im well aware of the other funtions the torque tube has on the set up of a Buick.I was just simply trying to point out some things Im sure her was not aware of when trying to make such a conversion. Like no seals at eather end of the drive line, no yoke on the pinion, not a sealed conventional u-joint like in an open drive shaft.Let alone the fact of the old style spine(course) about 12 teeth if I remember correctly. Were as a new style yoke is more in the neiborhood of around 30. I sorry if I offended you or anyone ealse for that matter, I just hate to see a guy invest money on bad advice.I will be more careful of my opinions in the future. Tim Bair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capgage Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Tim,No sweat - I'm actually glad to know that you do know your stuff, actually probably better than me since you actually have tried the conversion for real!I just wanted to make sure, also, that this guy didn't get the idea that you could just sort of do without the torque tube itself, and get by with what suspension parts are already there - and that the torque tube is ONLY for keeping grime off the driveshaft and for sealing the rear of the transmission and the front of the differential. Not so as you know.I was misreading your comments to suggest that. This torque tube thing has come up so many times, and I guess the nerve you hit had less to do with your specific comments, and more to do with coming up against people (mostly non-Buick) again and again, who either do not believe the that torque tube exists (really), or they simply will not understand the torque tube design no matter how much you explain it to them. These types will also not believe it when you tell them, that once you remove the engine/transmission the rear end is not supported except by two springs and one radius arm (I know theres a better name for it but it eludes me right now) - and that the rear end moves around all over the place, loudly, when you try to maneuver the car on/off trailers, etc.Actually you know, it's sort of hard to know who said what since most of the replies are anonymous. Yikes!Sorry for teeing off on you like that. I am now in the rough and can't find my ball. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 The ORIGINAL post asked 3hree questions. The FIRST asked about the operational difference between 3-mem and hotchkiss. NOT how to convert to hotchkiss. It was the SECOND AND 3rd questions asking about conversion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Packard V8,I think I follow you on the content of the original questions, but - what's your point on that, in response to my post? I actually was with you through all your posts, actually on "your side" with this thread. I am not sure how you are suddently irritated with my post.This thread has become ridiculous with all the anonymous replies and misunderstood intents of post content. No further comments from me on this one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capgage Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 OK, one more - that last post was me. As if this thread was not irritating enough, I forgot to log in. I am done with this one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Hmmmmmmmmm... ., i'm not the least bit irritated. I was only reiterating the content of the original post and title. Yes, i think we have all answered the original question close enuf for the original posting persons needs. -Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmartens Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Gentlemen:I'm the original anonymous poster on the torque tube question--got my password back now so I can log in!I appreciate the answers you've all provided--it sounds like there is no "easy" option other than swapping out the Dynaflow and the rear end simultaneously. I think I've read enough on these forums over the years to know that there appears to be no real "bolt-in" solution. (I've only got a 1 1/2 car garage, no welding equip or experience--and worst of all--no money!)Glad to hear someone tried the torque tube conversion.Thanks again,Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 after looking back thru the posts i suddenly learned something about the NEW forum. Clicking on a 'REPLY' from some previous post ( i usually just use the last post of a series or one near the last) causes a 'Re: ' or reference to that PERSON that made the post. I think this is quite possibly why there r some miss-understandings of replies. HOW does one make a GENERAL reply without actually 'referencing' it to ONE person?????? Usually, if i am pointing at SOMEONE i use their name in the post.YES, this new forum IS confusing and can cause MISUNDERSTANDINGS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 I think if you click on "Reply" on the original post (or whichever one you want to particularly comment on) it should reference it. Given the time lags in posting and drafting a response, sometimes these things look out of sequence.I'll try it now referencing my first anonymous post.Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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