1964 F-85 Cutlass engine swap

[pitman]

I wish to replace the 330 engine in my 1964 F-85 Cutlass.I Am looking for a running or remanufactured 1964 330 engine--- BUT ALSO MIGHT CONSIDER REPLACING WITH A LATER MODEL OLDS 350. Does anyone know if a later model 350 will install without difficulties?  I really would prefer to keep it ORIGINAL--therefore a 330 would be desired.  Any leads to an engine would be appreciated as well as the info asked about in regards to the 350 swap.

          Thanks,

                 Pitman

[joe_padavano]

All small block Olds motors are externally identical, making this a direct bolt-in. The only issue you will have is that 1964 has a one-year-only water pump with a driver side inlet. Because of this, the timing tab is on the other side and the balancer mark is in a different place. You either need to swap all these parts or swap to a 1965 radiator with the outlet on the other side.

 

Also be aware that 1968-up Olds motors have a different crank flange bolt pattern from the 1964-67 motors, so you need a flywheel that matches the motor. Use the 1964 motor mounts no matter which year block you have. This is a common swap.

[pitman]

Thank you for the reply:  I have been unsuccessful in my search for a 330 engine--SO I found a DONOR car with a 455 engine and th400 tranny--so that will, in the long run, be my SWAP.  Hoped to stay original--BUT LIFE GOES ON--will keep what I remove for the next GUY if he wants it after I die.   Again thanks for the info.

 

                       PITMAN

 

[joe_padavano]

Be aware of a few items.  First, the 455 needs a larger radiator. You'll need to adapt the radiator from a 1965 442.

Second, do NOT buy "455" motor mounts. Use the mounts currently bolted to your 330 (or correct replacements if you need new ones). The rubber mounts must match the frame pads, not the block.

Third, what car did the TH400 come out of? If it came from a full size or a Vista, it will have a long tailhousing.  A-body TH400s used the short tailhousing. You will also need to relocate the trans crossmember and drill new holes for it in the lower flange of the frame.  You will also need a custom lenght driveshaft and a different front yoke.

Fourth, since the e-brake cable hangs off the crossmember, you will need to change the front and intermediate cables to accommodate the new crossmember location. Use the cables from a 1967 442 with TH400.

Fifth, use the W/Z exhaust manifolds from a 1969-72 442. Repros are available.

Sixth, your 1964 330 accessory brackets will not fit a 455 (plus, they are configured for the unique 1964 water pump). 65-67 442 brackets work best.  You will need a short (5.1") water pump if you get those brackets.

[pitman]

Thank-you---look like I will have my work cut out for me!!! 

                  Pitman

[joe_padavano]

41 minutes ago, pitman said:

Thank-you---look like I will have my work cut out for me!!! 

                  Pitman

 

That list sounds worse than it is. Of course, for those of us with a trove of parts cars, this is no big deal... ?

[Surfbinder]

I see this is an older message. I also have a 64 Cutlass 330, that I am interested in changing my water pump and radiator to a 65 model, are there any other considerations? 

[joe_padavano]

31 minutes ago, Surfbinder said:

I see this is an older message. I also have a 64 Cutlass 330, that I am interested in changing my water pump and radiator to a 65 model, are there any other considerations? 

 

You need the water pump, timing tab, radiator, lower hose, and balancer from a 1965 330. Those are all bolt-on parts, and are much more common than the 1964 parts.

[Surfbinder]

ok, thanks very much for the reply. I have a newly reconditioned 330. I am hoping to have a better cooling system with the 65 set up. Currently, I have an issue with it getting close to overheating. As you already know, the inlet and out let are both on the drivers side. I am hoping the flow design will be much better having the flow be on opposite ends of the radiator, Top, drivers side, bottom passenger side, where it actually has to go through the whole radiator vs. the potential path of least resistance. Have you had or know of better cooling results, incorporating the 65 design? 

[joe_padavano]

This isn't going to fix your heating problem. The location of the inlets and outlets is second order or even less of an effect. Heck, if this is your concern, the 1964 A/C radiator has the inlet on the opposite side from the outlet and is a three row core. Note that the 1965 radiator is 2" taller than the 1964 radiator, which requires modifying the core support to accommodate it.

 

These cars didn't overheat when new. I'd suggest figuring out what your real problem is before spending $1000 to change the cooling system for no net benefit. Do you have a good clutch fan? Is the timing advance working properly? Is the carb jetted for E10 gasoline (which is effectively leaner than straight gasoline)? What was done to the "reconditioned" 330? Was the block actually boiled out in a hot tank or was it just degreased in the steam cleaner chamber that most machine shops have today? There are a lot of causes for overheating that are unrelated to the size of the radiator.

 

 

This is the 1964 radiator with A/C. USRadiator sells stock and HD versions.

 

[Surfbinder]

Thanks for taking the time to chat! So I have heard varying reasons for my heating issue. Having the inlet/out let on the same side, is really a matter of path of least resistance. The flow is pressure based, so in theory, the water has less of a chance going through the complete radiator, being (64) being on the same side. I heard from an old time mechanic that they would/could heat up, (not overheat) in traffic when new.  If you are correct, true I don't really want to update all my new parts. I do have a new 3 core radiator. (I can have my new radiator modified to have the inlet/outlet modified to the other side, for a reasonable amount). Good Clutch fan. I did fit a 65 cutlass radiator shroud that a company is making, that didn't change anything.  Timing advance is working as it should. I do have an electronic ignition.                                                                     

 

I have used only recreational fuel since the rebuild. But I didn't jet the carb for that fuel. I only drove the car about 20 miles before that, so I don't know if it had over heating issues. The Block/heads were boiled. It's bored to a 350 now. New internals, pistons, bearings, balanced, heads hardened seats, all new valve train, mild cam. Someone had just installed an Edelbrock intake & carb, which I reused.  I do however have the exhaust manifolds that are bigger bore internally, maybe you have seen them (Thornton). 

 

I did just install a electronic pusher 14" fan on the radiator, that made a big difference. When driving it will maintain 180-185. Sometimes, sitting in traffic, up to 190, then goes back down when moving. I have only driven it a couple of time when it was below 75 degrees. The real test could be today at almost 90. I  When I shut the car off, the temperature will then still rise just sitting there, it goes up to 210-220, I don't know if I can do anything about that, is this a problem? 

 

If you can help me figure it out that would be great. I have had it at 2 shops, both are engine builders and haven't had success in diagnosing the issue. I am happy to answer any questions that could help me along!

[joe_padavano]

The only reason that the A/C radiators have the upper fitting on the passenger side is because the A/C compressor pushes the alternator to the driver's side, which interferes with the hose. I'll note that in 1965, the A/C cars had both hoses on the same side of the radiator. The tube size in the radiator core is the limiting factor on flow. Moving the inlet tube from one side to another has nearly no effect. If you don't believe this, get an IR thermometer and measure the temperature on the top right and top left of the core. If there were a major flow difference, you'd see a big difference in the temperature. I've found people say a lot of things. Some of it is based in fact and some of it they pull out of an orifice. I'm an aerospace engineer. I believe hard data, not someone's 50 year old memory.

 

What else has been done to this engine? You have an aftermarket carb, which may or may not be jetted correctly, an adapter that disrupts flow, an aftermarket Performer (not RPM) intake that is relatively restrictive, an aftermarket HEI of unknown advance curve, and a 330 block that has apparently been bored nearly an eighth of an inch over size (3.938" stock bore vs 4.057" bore for the 350). Are those the original #1 heads? What cam is in it? Was it degreed at installation? What initial timing are you running? What total? What is the vacuum advance curve? Is it sourced from manifold or ported vacuum? Have you read the plugs to see if the engine is lean or not? There's a whole lot going on there.

[carbking]

Your engine is very sanitary in appearance, very nice, however:

 

The imitation AFB will need major recalibration if used on anything other than a small-block-Chevy.

 

If you follow NASCAR, think "restrictor plate racing" when you consider the adapter. As an example: consider a spread-bore intake manifold (for a Q-Jet) and a 750 CFM square-bore carburetor. The Q-Jet is basically 150 on the primary, and a variable 600 on the secondary. The square-bore is basically 375 on the primary, and 375 on the secondary. So with the mis-match intake/adapter/carburetor you have 150 available on the primary (from the manifold) and 375 available on the secondary (from the carburetor); thus the combination is now 525 CFM.

 

If you wish to use other than a stock carburetor, then would be a good idea to compare the characteristics of the original carb to the aftermarket carb, and to use a manifold designed for the carburetor. Then if things don't initially go well, you have a starting point. Typically, the A/F ratio percentages high vacuum/low vacuum are radically different for a small-block-Chevy and an Oldsmobile.

 

At this point, probably some major testing (vacuum, ignition, compression, and A/F ratio) are in order, rather than any of us guessing.

 

As Joe mentioned, an expensive radiator is not a band-aid for an engine needing tuning.

 

Stick with it, you will get there.

 

Jon.

[Surfbinder]

Thanks Joe & Jon

 

I worked with Rocket Racing & Performance in Waterford WI on the cam. I don't remember other than what my receipt says. Lunati Hyd Flat tappet, custom, ground on a 45 degree. 

Yes, original heads. I am not sure on the timing/vacuum questions. But I will find out. 

 

I will check into the testing (vacuum, ignition, compression, and A/F ratio). 

 

I have sent a message with all the feedback from this post to a couple of teams to try and get this diagnosed. 

 

thanks again, heading to cooler rides!

David

[Surfbinder]

Jon,

 

I do in fact have a Spread bore manifold with a square bore carburetor. I will be getting the suggested testing completed   (vacuum, ignition, compression, and A/F ratio). In the mean time, could you start thinking about a replacement carburetor for this car?

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Surfbinder (see edit history)