BRASS Lamp reference

[tom_in_nh]

I'll buy the second copy.

[Terry Bond]

4 hours ago, lump said:

Hello, Terry. Just wondered if you decided to go ahead with this project? If so, I would like to buy the very first copy. 🙂

Well, yes and no. 

When I first got excited about this I began accumulating advertising material.  there are lots of early ads from periodicals and catalogs, but missing is some of the info on specific application.  Perhaps it's because lamps were optional, not originally supplied on some vehicles, or were always more of a "personal choice."  I'm told it was not uncommon for someone to retain lamps from a car they sold or put out to pasture so the lamps could be re-used on another vehicle.  Everyone had their favorites it seems.  It's hard to pin down unless lamps are specifically marked for use on a vehicle. Then, there are differences in year and model, so digging out info to produce an accurate reference would be near impossible.   Ok, so nothing is impossible.  But - time and effort are precious.  I'm retired but in the "how'd I ever have time to work" situation.  Maybe I'll learn to say no when asked to volunteer for something!  Then I can find more time for a project like this.

 

I'm "inspired" however - a good friend and fellow spark plug collector has recently published some nice books on early spark plugs. These are printed "on-demand" so there is no real "investment" required.  Of course they are done overseas but the quality is outstanding and the service is excellent.

 

The books though are a simple compendium of chronological advertising for spark plugs as they appeared in periodicals, catalogs and motoring journals.  There is some information on the companies that made them but not much.  Research through patent records has produced some interesting info but wow, talk about rabbit holes!  

 

Right now I think the only way to get something on the street is to do similar with lamps.  Compile a chronological assortment of early advertising,  I may talk further with my friend about his books and begin moving that direction.  So far, my list of potential customers is up to 9. 

 

i think I know the book that Steve mentioned in an earlier post.  It was soft-bound and part of a series done on early automobiles.  I also have a copy somewhere.  Might be able to find one on evil-bay or Amazon.  Think it was simply called "Aitomobile Brass."

 

Terry

[Nolan Jay]

Hi, I'm hoping I can get a side lamp model identified. The lamp looks to be approximately 11 to 12 inches tall or there abouts. The lens looks around 3". All this is speculative really, but I've tried to match it up with the most common brands like Lucas but I can't find a match. It looks as though the top of the lamp is missing but I can see holes around the "chimney". Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks all!

Edited June 14 by Nolan Jay (see edit history)

[Terry Bond]

I replied to your separate post. Clearer photos needed.

Thanjs

Terry

[ABear]

Photoshop might be helpful?

[Nolan Jay]

On 6/14/2024 at 6:06 PM, ABear said:

Photoshop might be helpful?

 

That's great. Thank you. I didn't think it had a top to it but it looks like there's a really thin convex brass top to it. Still no closer to finding which manufacturer it is. It appears that most companies had their own nuances to their lamps. I would say that Howes & Burley or Lucas seem to be the closest. Still no match though.

[ABear]

8 minutes ago, Nolan Jay said:

I would say that Howes & Burley or Lucas seem to be the closest. Still no match though.

You can also try using google images search (see the attached pictures).

 

https://images.google.com/imghp?hl=en

 

Select search by image icon.

 

You will then get a different search screen, there you can drag and drop or insert a photo or URL link and Google images will look for other pictures that the item looks similar to or matches your item.

 

When I tried that it seemed to mainly find Lucas as the most likely match.

 

It is highly likely that it may be a Lucas made lamp, but may be a lesser known model or a model sold to a third party to resell. It could also have been nothing more than a theatrical reproduction for a prop department for stage/movie industry which was made to look alike but not be a direct copy/knockoff of a name brand assuming the picture is from a movie (This is done to hide the brand so they do not have to pay for product placing).

 

 

[Nolan Jay]

On 6/21/2024 at 5:04 PM, ABear said:

You can also try using google images search (see the attached pictures).

 

https://images.google.com/imghp?hl=en

 

Select search by image icon.

 

You will then get a different search screen, there you can drag and drop or insert a photo or URL link and Google images will look for other pictures that the item looks similar to or matches your item.

 

When I tried that it seemed to mainly find Lucas as the most likely match.

 

It is highly likely that it may be a Lucas made lamp, but may be a lesser known model or a model sold to a third party to resell. It could also have been nothing more than a theatrical reproduction for a prop department for stage/movie industry which was made to look alike but not be a direct copy/knockoff of a name brand assuming the picture is from a movie (This is done to hide the brand so they do not have to pay for product placing).

 

 

Thanks! I gave that a try and got similar results. I did find a couple of lamps that seem to be "white label" that weren't too dissimilar. That mounting plate on the side with the extra pointy corners really is a unique aspect of this lamp and one I can't seem to find. As is the oil holder at the bottom. There's no skirt to it and its almost straight up and down. I think I might have to settle on this one. Lucas 724 or Howes & Burley 1008 are as close as it gets.

 

It would've been locally sourced as a lot of props were. It wouldn't in the interest of the props department to make this type of lamp when so many were around and being used outside of their original use. Like you said, I would bet that this was a very specific year or model that might've been exlucisve to a type of vehicle. Maybe the car it came off commissioned a company like Lucas to make them a lamp. The shroud on the top of the lamp looks to be a simple convex plate, rather than a full wind shroud so likely an earlier model. It's not very ornate at all. Very plain looking but it does look so similar to other lamps coming out of birmingham, UK. I will keep looking regardless. It might be one of those variations that turns up once in a blue moon perhaps.

 

There is another scene in the movie where the lamp falls and hits the floor, spilling oil everywhere which ignites. I did freeze frame it to see if it was a right or left lamp and its the same as the one hanging. no sign of a badge or name plate on the opposite side. The red lens at the rear of the lamp can be seen in that scene though. It wouldn't suprise me in the least if they used the same lamp throughout the third act. It's such a small part of the set dressing.

 

[Nolan Jay]

Another unique aspect of this lamp which I forgot to mention, and why I ruled out Lucas, were the holes going around the top of the chimney flue. Even without the shroud at the top not many Lucas lamps seemed to include these vents. Or at least none that marry up with any other lamps.

 

Edited June 23 by Nolan Jay (see edit history)

[Nolan Jay]

[ABear]

Different lamp in the last photo you posted..

 

Top is too short, should be able to see the top with vent holes as the first pictures show a lamp with a very tall or long top with vent holes at the very top, but looks like the one in your last picture has a short top.

 

The oil pot on the last picture appears to be straight and not angled like your first pictures when it was hanging.

 

Bail is also missing in the last picture but in the scene the bail may have been left hanging on the hook..

 

If you had the back view of the lamp as it was hanging like in your first pictures then you could identify if it was really the same as the hanging ones as many oil lamps did not have a rear jewel. Rear jewel is often found on auto front facing side lights.

 

See my red markups below..

[Nolan Jay]

15 hours ago, ABear said:

Different lamp in the last photo you posted..

 

Top is too short, should be able to see the top with vent holes as the first pictures show a lamp with a very tall or long top with vent holes at the very top, but looks like the one in your last picture has a short top.

 

The oil pot on the last picture appears to be straight and not angled like your first pictures when it was hanging.

 

Bail is also missing in the last picture but in the scene the bail may have been left hanging on the hook..

 

If you had the back view of the lamp as it was hanging like in your first pictures then you could identify if it was really the same as the hanging ones as many oil lamps did not have a rear jewel. Rear jewel is often found on auto front facing side lights.

 

See my red markups below..

The oil pot flew off just as it hits the floor so this is the bottom of the lamp minus the pot you're seeing. Same pot too. Additionally the bail is the curve you can see on the right and not the lip of the len surround. I think its just the angle that we're seeing it from that makes the flue look shorter. Its much easier to reference all of these parts in the video itself rather than a single freeze frame. I'll see if I can upload a slo mo of the entire scene. It is 100% the same lamp with alot of identifying features of the hanging lamp.

[Nolan Jay]

15 hours ago, ABear said:

Different lamp in the last photo you posted..

 

Top is too short, should be able to see the top with vent holes as the first pictures show a lamp with a very tall or long top with vent holes at the very top, but looks like the one in your last picture has a short top.

 

The oil pot on the last picture appears to be straight and not angled like your first pictures when it was hanging.

 

Bail is also missing in the last picture but in the scene the bail may have been left hanging on the hook..

 

If you had the back view of the lamp as it was hanging like in your first pictures then you could identify if it was really the same as the hanging ones as many oil lamps did not have a rear jewel. Rear jewel is often found on auto front facing side lights.

 

See my red markups below..

Slo mo video ->

 

[ABear]

6 hours ago, Nolan Jay said:

The oil pot flew off just as it hits the floor so this is the bottom of the lamp minus the pot you're seeing. Same pot too. Additionally the bail is the curve you can see on the right and not the lip of the len surround. I think its just the angle that we're seeing it from that makes the flue look shorter. Its much easier to reference all of these parts in the video itself rather than a single freeze frame. I'll see if I can upload a slo mo of the entire scene. It is 100% the same lamp with alot of identifying features of the hanging lamp.

Not enough light and details to definitively say that the lamp on the floor is the same that was hanging.

 

I would have to bring that video into my Vegas editing software and then attempt to lighten, sharpen the video to see exactly what was flying away. But I don't think there is enough detail to warrant my effort to do that.

 

I have my doubts they would trash a "good" light in one take, generally when filming they know that goofs happen, things get broken or damaged and not every scene will only require one single take. They also know that there will be hundreds or even thousands feet of film that will hit the cutting room floor.

 

Your assuming it is the same light, I don't think so as good chance they had multiple cheap versions from the prop department waiting to be damaged.

 

Keep in mind cheap reproductions are often used in movies, the reproductions are not always made by the pro department.

 

Cool lamp though.

[Nolan Jay]

3 hours ago, ABear said:

Not enough light and details to definitively say that the lamp on the floor is the same that was hanging.

 

I would have to bring that video into my Vegas editing software and then attempt to lighten, sharpen the video to see exactly what was flying away. But I don't think there is enough detail to warrant my effort to do that.

 

I have my doubts they would trash a "good" light in one take, generally when filming they know that goofs happen, things get broken or damaged and not every scene will only require one single take. They also know that there will be hundreds or even thousands feet of film that will hit the cutting room floor.

 

Your assuming it is the same light, I don't think so as good chance they had multiple cheap versions from the prop department waiting to be damaged.

 

Keep in mind cheap reproductions are often used in movies, the reproductions are not always made by the pro department.

 

Cool lamp though.

I have a really good insight into the movie, the set design and props department, having had a number of conversations with the production crew and, surprisingly, in the instance of JAWS, most of the props were locally sourced, loaned, sold to the production for ridiculous fees and alot of props were one-offs and unique. For example, there were two boats for the movie - The working boat and a sinkable version. When it came to filming the sinking version, they stripped most of the props out of the working boat to fit into the sinking version, including the cabin table, the aluminum rung ladder, lights, fixtures, fittings and more, rather than making or sourcing duplicates. They just didn't have the budget for alot as the local "Goodwillers" from the island would change their prices for things being loaned out on almost a daily basis. While I couldn't say 100% that its the same lamp, with such a small and enoquous prop as that, I would expect it to be either identical to the hanging version or the same prop. The mounting bracket with its unique "4 sharp points", the oil well, the wing nut mount, almost everything visible is the same rather than similar. As you mentioned, the flue with its vent holes, does actually appear to be missing rather than too short. Perhaps also knocked off on that take or a previous take? John Dwyer who was responsible for the props also had to bill universal studios for the amount of damage caused or rather, "allegidly" caused to the loaned props from local people and businesses when they were returned to their owners. The residents of Marthas Vineyard, for all their anti movie protesting, came out of that movie alot better off than the film crew did haha.

Edited June 24 by Nolan Jay (see edit history)

[ABear]

I think the top missing may have been one of the parts that went flying away, that would make sense.

 

As far as the oil pot, from the still I marked up you can see something still attached to the lamp bottom which is brass and shiny enough to show up when I lightened up the photo. It is possible that there was a fake outside cover with a angled flare that may have been placed over the original oil pot which was used to break away easily.

 

Some oil lamps especially ornate ones could also have a decorative fancy outside covers that served multiple purposes as some oil lamps were made to be carried or hooked (via bail) plus mounted on a vehicle (the side mounting plate with screw) or some had wide flat bottoms also to allow one to sit the lamp on a flat surface.

 

Stands to reason it may have had a removable cover, wouldn't want a uncontrolled real fire starting in the wrong places now would we? Otherwise would have oil flying around uncontrollably.

 

But once again, there is not enough detail in your slow motion version to identify the lamp manufacturer or model.

 

I think you have reached a dead end unless you can reach out to the studio and find the props master for that movie and get a definitive list of props used during that movie.

[Nolan Jay]

On 6/24/2024 at 7:10 PM, ABear said:

I think the top missing may have been one of the parts that went flying away, that would make sense.

 

As far as the oil pot, from the still I marked up you can see something still attached to the lamp bottom which is brass and shiny enough to show up when I lightened up the photo. It is possible that there was a fake outside cover with a angled flare that may have been placed over the original oil pot which was used to break away easily.

 

Some oil lamps especially ornate ones could also have a decorative fancy outside covers that served multiple purposes as some oil lamps were made to be carried or hooked (via bail) plus mounted on a vehicle (the side mounting plate with screw) or some had wide flat bottoms also to allow one to sit the lamp on a flat surface.

 

Stands to reason it may have had a removable cover, wouldn't want a uncontrolled real fire starting in the wrong places now would we? Otherwise would have oil flying around uncontrollably.

 

But once again, there is not enough detail in your slow motion version to identify the lamp manufacturer or model.

 

I think you have reached a dead end unless you can reach out to the studio and find the props master for that movie and get a definitive list of props used during that movie.

Yep 100%. Its a weird one. The one thing I have found which is really interesting, take the Lucas No.724 lamp, for example; there are so many variations to that lamp, I never realised until I decided to hone in on that model as a possible contender. I've seen different oil pots for that, maybe replacements or swaped out but then there are other differences too even though it's the same model. So you never can tell really. I would bet that if any lamp collector had a good look at those lamps, there's alot of evidence of the manufacturing process and possible mistakes in production too. Maybe somebody picked the wrong pots or the wrong screwmount or the wrong lens surround during manufacturing or maybe the differences are similar to software updates today haha.

[Terry Bond]

Lucas lamps have a seperate removable oil container (font) that fits into the brass base of the lamp. That is held in place with a swivel clip mounted to the oil font itself via attachment centered into its base. I'll be glad to photo some of the Lucas lamps in my collection, including a 724 and post pictures.  Additionally Lucas lamps did not have the vent holes in the chimney as shown in the OPs photo from the movie clip. 

 

As has been said before, multiple takes where required and different lamps may have been used. You may never be able to ID the lamp shown laying on the floor. It may not be the same lamp used in other segments of film. 

If you post a photo from earlier in the movie, the first time a hanging cabin lamp appeared, it was  P&H.  

 

Terry

Edited June 26 by Terry Bond (see edit history)

[Nolan Jay]

On 6/26/2024 at 1:23 PM, Terry Bond said:

Lucas lamps have a seperate removable oil container (font) that fits into the brass base of the lamp. That is held in place with a swivel clip mounted to the oil font itself via attachment centered into its base. I'll be glad to photo some of the Lucas lamps in my collection, including a 724 and post pictures.  Additionally Lucas lamps did not have the vent holes in the chimney as shown in the OPs photo from the movie clip. 

 

As has been said before, multiple takes where required and different lamps may have been used. You may never be able to ID the lamp shown laying on the floor. It may not be the same lamp used in other segments of film. 

If you post a photo from earlier in the movie, the first time a hanging cabin lamp appeared, it was  P&H.  

 

Terry

Yes I noticed that swivel clip. Definitely something the lamp in the movie didn't have. Did you have a model number or a picture of the P&H it might be? I googled P&H lamps and I couldn't find anything similar unfortunately. Thanks, Terry 👍

[Nolan Jay]

Heres the exact lamp. 

[Terry Bond]

When i spent time in Bahrain (courtesy of Uncle Sam) I frequented some of the small antique shops and markets there searching for early motoring relics.  There were a lot of similar lamps that had been made by local craftsmen in their small workshops.  Many were patterned after the Lucas style of lamp which at one time was common there.  British stuff was all over that part of the world as many areas of the Gulf states were at one time British colonies.  A lot of British stuff was imported into that part of the world but in later years, it became more and more difficult to obtain replacement items.  A lot of the early brass lamps were repaired or even replacements were made locally in small home-based workshops.  A lot of these items were produced especially in India,  They sometimes include bits and pieces salvaged from original old lamps.  They are still made today in that part of the world, specifically for the antique and decorating industries. Like some of the brass "taxi" horns seen frequently for sale (advertised as antique) they are artificially aged.   In those markets, I saw a lot of similar pieces like the lamp in your photograph.  It can be difficult to tell if it is an old reproduction or a fairly new novelty item.  A good way to actually get close to the answer is the consider the weight of the object.  Originals will be quite substantial and much heavier than the reproductions. Another clue is often the burner/wick holder.  There should be a cover known as a "flame spreader". 

 

While I was there, I bought a great completely original brass Lucas tail lamp in one small antique shop.  I asked the shop owner if he had or knew of any other items like that.  A week later he had a whole box full of lamps waiting for me to look through.  They were all created from bits and pieces, carefully made by skilled individuals.  Unfortunately none were "original' so it seems I'd bough the only good lamp he had. 

 

Here are a couple of photos illustrating a typical Lucas font as removed from its lamp base.  Note the nicely plated cover for the wick designed to help spread the flame.   The other photo is a typical early Lucas tail lamp with the front door open to show the reflector with burner cover.  These lamps are quite substantially made.

 

I;'ll try to get a couple of other photos up later.

 

Terry

Edited July 21 by Terry Bond (see edit history)

[Nolan Jay]

They appear to be pretty common. The one posted above looks to be pretty complete. Heres a photo of the one I was looking for on the left and a similar unbranded one on the right. 

[Terry Bond]

19 hours ago, Nolan Jay said:

Heres the exact lamp. 

These photos are a good example of what I was talking about.  Crudely made reproduction.  You can clearly see the marks left from when the brass was spun.  The quality is very poor compared to originals.  It would have certainly made a good movie prop.

Terry

Edited July 22 by Terry Bond (see edit history)

[Nolan Jay]

On 7/22/2024 at 3:19 PM, Terry Bond said:

These photos are a good example of what I was talking about.  Crudely made reproduction.  You can clearly see the marks left from when the brass was spun.  The quality is very poor compared to originals.  It would have certainly made a good movie prop.

Terry

Yep agreed. disappointed to see how crappy they are in comparison with a Lucas or a Brown Brothers. But I would bet that it was a whole heck of alot cheaper to purchase.