Grand National Meet

[Guest]

We waited for years to get a Grand National close enough for us to be able to afford to go. We went to the one last month, andd were very dissapointed. It seems there are different sets of rules that apply. We were told that they would get back with us, but here it is a month later, and we still have not heard from anyone.<BR> It was raining the day of the show, but we and others took out their cars to be judged. <BR>They let others wait an hour until the rain stopped, and then bring their cars out. I think this is very unfair. We had our wet car judged against a dry one, let alone the rules said they had to be out by 11. and they didn't get out untill 12. I am writing a letter to the AACA as they have not gotten back with me.

[Tom Deering]

DISCLAIMER: I am not an AACA Judge, therefore I'm speaking with no authority. However, as an Exhibitor, It seems that the wet car has the advantage. We drive onto the Concours field with 400 points. When our cars are judged, those 400 points get whittled down for every flaw the judges find. A wet car hides the flaws. Therefore, if the flaws are masked by the rain, the judges don't see them. Result = Fewer deductions. <BR> I would consider myself lucky to show a car that has been rained upon. Heck, I'd feel lucky to see rain during the Summer!<BR> Tom<BR>P.S. Congratulations on having a car of such quality that it qualifies to be shown in a Grand National. Yours must truly be among the best in the hobby.

[Guest]

I am not sure what it is that you are waiting for AACA to get back to you on. The awards are all given out that night. I attended and I also had a wet car. I agree that a wet car will have less points deducted than a dry one since the water does hide imperfections. I also heard that since there was a storm with blowing rain that they allowed car to get on the judging field as late as 12:00 noon. Mine sat through the storm on the field and I had to work like crazy to get it ready to judge. But no one can control the weather. Just what is it that you are waiting to hear from AACA on?

[Guest]

The Grand National was on August 18th. Today is September 6th.<P>Short month wasn't it. <P>hvs

[Tom Deering]

Yeah, short month and only 2 1/2 months away from us seeing rain. Seriously though: to whom at AACA could an Exhibitor write to, and what could be resolved? I still firmly believe the wet car will attain a higher score. Any informed Judges' opinions to share with us?<BR> Tom

[Guest snkchevcol]

modelt11:<BR>you never stated if you recieved the award you were going after. Are we to assume that since you are writing AACA that you didn't get your award you think you deserve? I also would agree with the other posts about the rain being better for the car owner (as much as we hate to get the cars out in it)because it will cover up a lot of possible problems. Same applies to buying a new or used car. All car salesman love it when it rains, because it makes their job a lot esaier.<P>Rock

[Guest]

Tom:<P>Like you and others that attended Moline, I certainly did not welcome the rain. My analysis was everyone else is going to get wet, so go for it. I appreciate the judges who had to work in this weather, not to mention the chill in the air.<P>My case goes further than just rain. Having baby sat my '72 TR-6 for 30 years (since new) I could not wait to qualify for a Grand National. After all the years, I was on my way from Reading, Pa (884 miles to Moline). I built a PVC framework to fit a U-Haul trailer. Around Pittsburgh, a rig driver laid on the air horn and pointed down. I pulled over. I lifted the tarp and was shocked. One upright came loose and wore the paint on my R.F. fender flair down to bare metal. Felt like turning aroung, but, thought, go for it.<P>Had a can of spray touch-up with me. Did a good job, but, it was obvious. Told the Team Leader that it was damage "en-route". He did not even look at it, said things happen, and, he'll wait and see if his team deducts for it. I received a 1st.<P>Another story: Car got soaked going to Hershey in 1999. I was feverishly drying it. A very nice man with a judging clipboard & coffee in the other hand came up and said I should relax as the judges know dirt, grass, & mud from a neglected auto.<P>Regards, Peter J.

[novaman]

I'm also a judge. Far from Howard's 261 credits, but working on it. I'm more like in the 45-50 range. Anyways, out of those about 35 of them are from judging chassis. We know fresh dirt from old dirt. Also, I'll ditto Howards lenghty but accurate comment about showing in the rain. <B>Rain hides defects.</B>

[Guest]

Hey modelt 11. How about coming back on here and telling us if we answered any of your concerns. Or if not, then tell us more about your problem.<P>If however it is a matter of not getting the award you think you should have gotten, there is not much we here on the forum can do for you. ~ hvs

[Ron Green]

They announced around 10:30 that it was extended to 12:00 to have your car in place. I also took my car out in the rain only to find out I should have left it in the trailer for 2 more hours however I am not to good at perdicting the weather or rolling the dice. There were many judges walking around of which you should have asked questions if you were not sure. I to tryed to dry my car off and was half done when the judges came over to do my car. Rather then hold them up of which they said they would come back if necessary I allowed them to judge my car half wet. I asked the team captain if it really mattered if the car was wet and he assured me it did not and they would also be judging chassis's and they could tell the difference between a wrong or dirty one when compared to one that just drove off the trailer 100 feet to its parking spot.<P>I think the judges did a good job for the weather conditions and the quality of cars they had to work with. Many car owners were in a FOWL mood due to the rain. I even had a lady flip out on me for parking my car to close to there trailer of which they were across the street waiting for the rain to stop before they unload. I overhead a guy saying he forgot his fire extinguisher so I stopped my car and put the car in park and ran across the street and got my truck extinguisher for him to use which took all of one minute. This lady shot across the street and berated me about parking behind there trailer even though they had no intentions of unloading. Maybe she thought my class was to park on the street 2 blocks from the show starting behind there trailer. Of course her husband had nothing to say. Maybe someday they will need a loaner fire extinguisher and I can only hope that I am driving by.

[Guest]

OK Tom, I will put my judges 2 cents in on this one. I have been an AACA judge for 33 years [261 credits]. I have judged in the rain, snow flurries, unbearable heat and on beautiful days. <B>RAIN WORKS TO THE BENEFIT OF THE EXHIBITOR!</B> How?<P>Raindrops hide defects like small chips, orange peel and runs in the paint. In a downpour how many judges get down on their knees to really do a thorough job on the chassis. They may just look at the interior through a window rather than opening a door. On the engine compartment, it won't have much effect.<P>There are a lot of First Junior winners out there who got the award at Lake Placid years ago who will never get a Senior. Why? It was raining like hell all through the judging and the show field was on deep grass with 2" of standing water. What I said above really applied at that Meet. Many of those winners would have gotten a 2nd or 3rd on a dry day.<P>Now, as an exhibitor since 1965, I <B>LOVE</B> rain on show day. For all of the above reasons and one more. Often the people with the very best cars will elect to skip judging and leave their magnificent jewels in the trailer. So -- less competition for us lesser types. A 400 point car can push a 375 pointer down to a third because of the point spread, yet if he does not show up you might still get the First.<P>Therefore let me leave you with this thought for the day. If your car is not 390 or better,<B> PRAY FOR RAIN!</B>. <P>hvs<P>Just corrected a misspelling. The word was lesser, NOT letter.<p>[ 09-06-2001: Message edited by: hvs ]

[Tom Deering]

HVS,<BR> Thank you for the insight from a Judges' perspective. The logic seems blatantly obvious to me; but whadda I know? <BR> Thanks Again, Tom<P>P.S. Actually I'm jealous of those guys who made it to Moline. It was my goal to take the red car there for its' Senior. (Hopefully)

[ronbarn]

I was a deputy at the Moline AGNM and although the announcement was made during the Judges Breakfast to ignore the effect of the rain on the vehicles, I repeated this instruction to my team. There were some nervous owners who kept trying to wipe of their vehicles, but they finally stopped when I assured them that being wet would not affect the score. I agree that the rain may hide some defects, however, the more important point is that the judges (at least all that I know) would never take deductions for rain related appearance.<p>[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: ronbarn ]

[Guest]

I have to agree that the judges, at least at Hershey where I have shown, try to be very fair. I was there in '99 too. They know whether it rained recently, or if the parking is unavoidably muddy for the participants. Those guys aren't as clueless as people want to believe. And they are very respecting and nice people. Give them some credit-they aren't looking to bust your vehicle unless it is actually inferior. If anything, they want to give you the benefit of the doubt. So, don't sweat about perceived ill motives or actions, I've seen them exemplify the best in human nature and fairness. These guys judge because they want too-nobody's holding a gun to their heads. They want to see you succeed too.

[novaman]

karkraft, thank you for you comments. <P>As one of the Judges, we try to be fair at all shows. We know that things happen, as a fair number of the judges also show cars at the same show where they are judging. Before someone's knee jerks here, Judges aren't allowed to judge the class he/she has a car in. So, we know goes on on both sides of the fence. We want to see you succeed too. <P>We judge because we want to. If sombody's holding a gun to our heads we at least ought to get paid. As a judge, it actually costs us $$ to do so. In order to judge the show we have to go to the Judge's breakfast which cost each Judge up to $8. What do we have when the day's done. A 50 cent piece of "brass" with AACA Judge on it, and hopefully piece of mind that we did the fairest job of judging that day.<P>The biggest help to the judges is if you have something unquie on your car. Provide documention to the team captain or lay it by the componet. Documention is not an ad from J.C. Whitney!!!! Documention is paperwork from the car's manufacter i.e. sales lit., parts book, written letter, etc.<P>The second thing is please just stand off to the side and don't hover over the judges. To be honest the more you were to hover around me, the more likely I'm gonna look harder because your indicating to me there is something wrong with the car.<P>And remember we can't give out the scores. From the Judges maunal under the responsibilities for judges: j)<B>Never divulge a score to anyone for any reason.</B> I guess there might be a reason for it being in bold type in the manual. next line: k)Any judge found to have divulged a score will be excused from future judging at AACA National Meets. So, please don't ask.<P>If you failed to get your award and are worried about where points are taken of you can write of a "copy" of the judging form. It will NOT have the points on it but will indicate where points were taken. You then need to walk out to your car and look it over to see where there is something wrong. This requires getting out of your recliner, "looks good for here" don't cut it.<P>Sorry about rambling on. I'll put my soapbox away.