GM Powertrain

[Guest]

According to this GM considers all its engines as GM. This is wrong the 3800 is Buick. The Northstar is Cadillac. The 3100/3400 is Chevy. The 2.4L is Chevy. The 2.3L is Oldsmobile. The 4.3/4.8/5.3 truck engines are Chevy, the 6.0 is GMC. This is a load of crap. Visit this: <A HREF="http://www.gmpowertrain.com/history.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.gmpowertrain.com/history.htm</A> <BR>

[Guest]

Page isn't currently working try it later, but you'll see.

[Guest elk93001]

The 2.4L in the N body GMs (Gran Am Skylark and Achieva) are revised Olds 2.3 liter Quad 4. These were built after 1994-1995.

[----]

What about this link? <A HREF="http://www.gmpowertrain.com/about/index.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.gmpowertrain.com/about/index.htm</A> <BR>

[Guest]

Like I said the 2.4L is a revised 2.3L but it is now Chevy in origin. The link I put basically says the same thing however GM engines are still being built by their divisions and are generically being labelled as GM.

[Guest]

why the hell do you care? would it actually make you more likely to buy a gm car if you thought the divisions lorded over their own engine types?<P>if you dont like it, get a job in gm upper management. i have news for you, by the time you climbed the corporate ladder far enough to have sway in engine labelling/building descisions, someone would have impressed upon you the financial considerations needed to continue such varied development...<P><P>------------------<BR>allan<BR>--------------<BR>50 special, 455/th400<BR>64 stude gt hawk, 289/auto<BR>76 poncho GP, 400/th400

[Guest elk93001]

This doesn't make sense: If the 2.4 is a revised version of a 2.3 liter engine created by Oldsmobile, how could the new engine be of Chevy "origin"? Wouldn't it be of Olds origin? The 2.2 is Chevy originated ...If the chicken came before the egg, does that mean the chicken is now of egg origin or the other way around?<BR> Nevermind....<P>What exactly was your point anyways?<P><BR>

[Guest]

Yes the 2.4L is now Chevy. My point is why pay the price of a Chevy-blown I mean built engine in a expensive Olds or Buick. This rebadging has killed Olds and is threatening Buick. I love Olds and Buick but GM is cutting too many corners since the new W-machine (2.8L!!is sorry '88-present) GM originated with different engines and styles now like this magizine editor said if you buy GM you are buying a Chevy or a Cadillac. This is sad and becoming true a 3800 in a Chevy!! This is as sad as when they killed Buick Engineering.

[Dave@Moon]

Daddy, what was an Oldsmobile?<P> <P> <BR>And yes, there is a point to that question.

[86 2dr.ltd]

I see his point and see no problem with it!<P>Certain divisions developed certain engines.Some have been shared,some advancements passed on.Many of us would like to see the divisions remain a little segregated.This is part of what gives G.M.charactor.Yes everything is still all G.M. in the end but some things ended in certain divisions.<P>So what if someone mistates a bit of information,when I screw up I like to be corrected not beaten!HUMAN HUMAN HUMAN<BR>.<P>I didnt read anywhere that anyone was looking for employment!<P>Its amazing what gets a responce around here and what does'nt!I think we should all start jumping on each others backs for typos and improper grammer!

[bigrog]

Isn't it just easier to say that all these engines are GM? Who cares what division, they're all from the same company. You don't think GM has whatever division has the right engine budget at the time gets the project? If you didn't know, Pontiac and GMC merged a couple years ago. It's now oficcially Pontiac/GMC. It's all the same company!!<BR>

[Guest]

Thank you 86 2dr.ltd and Dave@Moon. My point wasn't clear at first but you see where I went with this right? At least some senior member's understand.

[Guest]

sorry if i came across a bit to harshly, but i think this relates back to dave's survey of what we drive. i dont really care which division the engine came from, as long as the engine is good!<P>for years, the 231 has been used in many gm cars, and as buick fans, we are all cool with that, but as soon as a quad4 shows up in a buick showroom, in a car you were NEVER going to buy anyway, you start griping?<P>i honestly (perhaps naively) think that better engineering comes from small, dedicated teams, that have lots of input and ideas from other sources. when five different gm divisions are trying to build engines for exactly the same market segment/power level, it drives up the cost for the end consumer, and makes repair parts more expensive.<P>look at the good luck rover/leyland/whatever has had with the 215! they have been working on that motor and making it better for 30 years now. all of that sustained development on one basic design by different design crews has polished that thing to a high level of perfection (for a push rod v8).<P>the days when gm divisions made their own trannies are over, and i dont hear you complaining about how everything is a hydramatic somethingorother now!<P>engines are going the same way. it makes no sense for gm divisions to engage in the kind of cross-divisional FINANCIAL competition that was rife in the 50's, given todays slipping marketshare and revenue margins.<P>gm will do what it takes to stay alive in todays market. that just happens to not look much like their development model in the 50's and 60's. if you want those processes to return, you are going to have to build a time machine.<BR><P>------------------<BR>allan<BR>--------------<BR>50 special, 455/th400<BR>64 stude gt hawk, 289/auto<BR>76 poncho GP, 400/th400

[Guest]

Actually Hydra-matic was next.

[Guest]

You have a good point that 4.0 V8 is potient!!! But paying for a Buick and getting a Chevy motor sucks or in the '80's getting a nice 307 (Olds) wasn't bad. Then paying for a cheaper Chevy and getting a 3800 burns my toast. (I don't know what that means, but it sounded cool) Seriously though it isn't like ly that the divisions whatever's left is going to make there own engines. On the other hand GM does too much rebadging. Also the 215 still uses Rochester and GM parts even in 2000.

[Guest]

Oh P.S. in service 2001 service manuels it still lists the manufactorers of the engine for example 4.0L (Aurora V8) B.O.C. and 3800 in everything but Chevy and Pontiac is Buick but the Chevy and Pontiac (even F-body) is listed as C.P.C. even though the VIN is K. This doesn't include VIN 1 (S/C 3800) that is still Buick even in Pontiac's ie:G.P.

[Guest John Chapman]

It's like the old adage... <P>"You can certainly enjoy the sausage... but you really don't want to know how it's made!"

[Guest elk93001]

Now that your point is a little clearer, take a look at a couple of books (if they're still in print or at your local library): <BR>"Call Me Roger" (I forget the author, but it's about Roger Smith, former Chairman of GM)<P>The other is "Rude Awakening" by MaryAnn Keller, a well-known automotive industry analyst. If you think GM's engine debacles are screwy, read about GMAD vs Fisher Body.<P>GM got to the point of having reduncy amid rising competition, rising development costs (esp in the '70's with emissions, safety etc.)The accountants didn't like that and decided to change things. In fact, "Bastardizing" started long ago in the 50's(the 59 c-body: DeVille and Buick Electra shared the same door)<BR>Also Chevy did in fact have their own V6 (3.8 litre,229 cid) in the early 80's, however it was Buick and its development of the V6 that beat out the existence of Chevy's comparably sized V6. Sure,it would be nice to have a Buick/Olds engine in a Buick/Olds and a Chevy motor in a Chevy and never the twain shall meet however, those days are long gone. Can something be done? Perhaps, but I doubt it.

[Guest]

Chuck2023, your entire point seems to be a bit of elitism. i got news for you, chevy can make a good motor if it tries, and buick can make a bad motor if it tries.<P>my point is that people should get the best engineering they can for their dollar.<P>just because buick makes a motor, and buick is higher in gm's price scale does NOT make it a better engine that a chevy, or a poncho for that matter.<P>the japanese have done this for years. screw making 4 different wiring harnesses for the same car based on the options the people bought. that increases the cost of _ALL_4_ variants of the cars option packages, cause the increase in the part numbers alone! so the japanese install the same wiring harness in all cars, and just dont plug up the units they did not buy.<P>this reduces the cost of all four cars, making the cheapest model cheaper.<P>true, the wiring harness is a small example, but the same philosophy stretches to all other aspects of the car.<P>gm is slowly learning that consumers differentiate cars based on styling, not the history of the engine. they dont pay for that man. they dont care.<P>make it well, make it powerful, make it efficient. who cares if the basic block was designed by buick 30 years ago?<P><P>------------------<BR>allan<BR>--------------<BR>50 special, 455/th400<BR>64 stude gt hawk, 289/auto<BR>76 poncho GP, 400/th400

[86 2dr.ltd]

Just put two overhead camshafts in that 3800,cast BUICK in the valve covers,hook up the blower and call it a day!

[Guest]

Great differentiation the Malibu or is it the new Cutlass. A Lumina no that's a 2Dr. Lumina A.K.A. Monte Carlo (95-99) Is that a Lumina APV or the hard to spell Olds, or Trans Port? Nice looking Chevy truck or sorry it's a GMC. GM hasn't done a very good job. They are getting better. I almost forgot "Is that your Chevy Suburban?" no it's completly different a GMC Suburban! Now we have the totally different GMC it's a Yukon XL!??!!?!?

[Guest]

that is exactly my point, chuck. thank you for stating it so eloquently.<P>gm needs to spend its time giving people interesting, useful, differentiated cars from the style and utility standpoint, instead of your argument of starting inter-division engine design battles.<P>people will pay more for, and expect to get useful features from the user interface perspective, not which division designed the engine block.<P>i think gm will fare better by re-designing the aztek than making a new engine for it <P>------------------<BR>allan<BR>--------------<BR>50 special, 455/th400<BR>64 stude gt hawk, 289/auto<BR>76 poncho GP, 400/th400

[Guest]

The GMPowertrain site's "Facts & Figures" is full of 'falsehoods & falicies':<P>"...the many automotive companies that combined forces into the 1920s to form General Motors" ??? Buick, Olds & Oakland were the building blocks of GM in 1908. <P>"...automatic transmissions were introduced in the 1940s and 50s.." ??? The '39 Olds debuted the 4-speed HydraMatic, built by the Detroit Transmission Division of GM.<P>"...Powerglide and Buick Dynaflow were merged with Hydra-matic in 1983 to form the Hydra-matic Division" say WHAT??? The Dynaflow's last gasp was in '64. What exactly was left 19 yrs later to merge with the Powerglide, which was dead by -what- the late '70s? <P>How sad is it that this site is done by/for GM itself.

[Guest]

AND under the 'history' link, they list the Saab turbo of '77 (all the while ignoring the Olds Jetfire & Corvair turbos) as a historical developement of GM. Saab and GM had NOTHING to do with each other in '77. This ridiculous crap has to stop!

[Dave@Moon]

Look, its a car company. They make cars. They just happen to have different brand names on some of them. It's almost immaterial at this point, and it <I> is </I> absurd to fret over this. (For instance, how can even there be a BOC Division now that there's no O?)<P>Whether your Buick is really a Chevy or your Cadillac is really an Opel that could of just as well been a Saturn simply doesn't matter. It's a distinction without a difference. What matters is whether or not the damn thing runs and keeps running, and what kind of effort ($) it takes to see that that happens. There may well be good and bad engine (or more likely engine plants) within a manufacturer's operation, but the name on the building shouldn't and doesn't relate to the quality of the product.<P>For instance, Cadillac and Olds built two of the worst engines of the past 25 years, the diesel and the V8/6/4. Meanwhile bless it's ubiquitous, boring, pointed little head, the Chevy small block has been refined at this point into a fine piece of machinery. <P>If you look at Lexus, Infinity and Acura for the most part you do not see exclusive engines, most are identical or derivitive of their respective mass market cars. Some (Lexus RX430/Toyota Highlander, Infinity I30/Nissan Maxima) are nearly GM style clones mechanically speaking. <P>The idea that cheaper cars have to be more poorly made than their elite siblings is a purely American phenomenon. In fact it's almost a purely GM phenomenon. The manufacturers that have made inroads in the U.S. over the last 35 years have all been ones that maintain a uniform grade of quality throughout their lines. If your favorite manufacturer is building products you find to be inferior under any guise, maybe they shouldn't be your favorite manufacturer. You simply don't have to put up with that. <P>And if you <I> are </I> that manufacturer, <B> for God's sake change while you still can! </B> <p>[This message has been edited by Dave@Moon (edited 02-02-2001).]

[Guest]

Let me try and clear the air a little. A lot of the engines referenced were designed by Division engine designers. When GM powertrain was formed, all the engine and transmission folks (design, engineer, manufacture, etc) were transferred from the Divisions to form GM Powertrain. Gradually as people and engines retire and new people are hired, their is little left of the Divisional influence. A good case in point is the Gen3 V8 (i.e Chevy V8). There are no common parts with the engine it replaced, other than bore center spacing. Even the firing order changed. As the 3800 fades there will be little left of Divisional remains (even the Series2 3800 redesign was done under the GM Powertrain domain). This is not necessarily bad, as the combined expertise of all the Divisions have now been brought together, but for those of us (older ones maybe) who have associated much of the character of the car brand with the engine, a little has been lost.

[86 2dr.ltd]

Yes there is no way it could be as much fun when Buicks and Chevys have the same engine.A day when no more Oldsmobiles will be made.I think we will soon be beholden to the Holden.

[Guest]

On the website it says the 3800 in 88 had a digital EGR which is wrong that was started on the 90 Regal 3800 with Tuned Port than the cars with the TPI 3800 all had it. And what car had a Quad 4 in '83? Also they forgot that THM is Turbo Hydro-matic which later is called just Hydra-matic with an A. <BR>

[Guest]

Hey Dave the Olds diesel may have been Olds worst engine to date but there is at least redemption for them. They can be made mean 350's on gas or turned into 440 cu/in stroker motors (courtesy Joe Mondello). The caddi 4/6/8 is non redeemable to the best of my knowledge. <P>And yes I know this has nothing to do with the topic.<P>------------------<BR>Lee C.<BR>81 Electra Park Ave (350 original)<BR>83 Electra Park Ave (307 that wont die)

[Guest]

Not true the 4/6/8 can be converted to a reg all 8 beast with 6 liters of power. The 350 Olds just needs tweaken. My friend has an '84 Delta 88 with a Olds 307 and in his owners manual it has all of GM's engines and the manufactor of that engine. 2.8L Chevy, 307 Olds, 4.1L Buick, 3.8L Buick, 2.5L Pontiac (Iron Duke), 305 Chevy. It's all in the name, or is that game?

[Guest]

This brings back memory of when people were in shock to find "metric" nuts and bolts on their "American" cars. Remember how people would grip and moan, and think that the quality and craftsmanship of the American car was going down the drain. Now, I don't think anybody even gives that a second thought anymore....it is just accepted, much like someday we will remember the days of divisional engines and think ....wow, can you believe that they used to do that?<P>And the earth makes another trip around the sun..... <P>Matt<BR>BCA# 34544<BR>'55 Century 4-dr Riv<BR>'86 Regal Limited

[Guest]

hahaha it really doesn't surprise me at all.<P>I figured, hey, I'll just stay away from the forum for a few monthes and maybe some of these ridiculously over-opinionated people will just dry up and blow away.<P>Funny, I see some of the same old people still squabbling about something GM did in the 50's already and will continue to do so.<BR>GET OVER IT ALREADY. Absolutely no amount of bickering will bring back the Buick V8 (in ANY line, let alone Buicks), Oldsmobile Division, or a switchpitch Turbo 400. This is ALL in the past. Frankly, as much as I like oldsmobiles, I hope I never have to see another 307. They lasted well beyond any time they should have. To install it in something as large as a Caprice wagon is unbelievable.<P>The redesign of Oldsmobile from 'Your Father's Oldsmobile' to something the youth market could want simply cost too much. Not just finacially, either. They lost customers (older people), but the younger crowd wasn't taking the bait either. As sales plummetted in the 90's, sadly, this could have been predicted easily enough.<P>One last thing. Chevys and their engines are NOT junk, no matter what a few of you 'experts' may think. If they were, they would have gotten the axe ages ago. Seeing how the previous generation of V8 lasted over 40 years with only minor upgrades per year shows the superb job done by the original engineers in the first place.<P>The constant remarks degrading Chevys are typical of Ford, Chrysler, Honda, and.... oh wait, some BUICK fans. Thats low, stabbing the back of your own GM Family. Sounds more like a jealous sibling, doesn't it? Regardless of what you call it, it is still quite offensive to those of us who are "GM FANS" in general, and own more than one of GM's finest. And no, they're not all automatically Buicks. I'm really tired of hearing how my stuff is junk because it is Chevy powered. Since we are all supposed to be on the same team I suggest putting an end to this HERE.<P>Note that this is directed at a certain (loud minority) few people. Not only this thread either, I mean the BCA board in general. You know who you are. I think its pretty clear.<P><P>------------------<BR>1968 "Canadian" Pontiac Beaumont<BR>1988 Buick LeSabre T-Type<BR>

[86 2dr.ltd]

Id didnt get much impression that people thought they were junk.Just that they were tired of Buick engines being tossed for Chevys.I dont like any mutt mutations.This is a matter of taste and personal expression of that taste.I refered to a 350 in a Jag as a donkey engine in a through bred but refered to no reliability problems.<P>They can not be on the same team when the axe startes to fall.Thats like saying your still in the family when you've been disinherited.

[Guest]

Hah! Funny somebody should mention the 4.6L Range Rover V8 in this thread. Believe it or not, it is the LAST version of ANY Buick V8 still in production. Hell of an engine nowadays. Comes with cross bolted mains and EFI. Also note that Rover Group was bought by BMW some years ago... and as of last year... sold the Land Rover division to Ford. So Ford now owns the toolings rights to the last Buick V8. As for the RWD Buick 3.8 V6, it is still in production in supercharged form by GM's Holden division in Australia. <P>Greg

[Guest]

It's a 4.0L V8 not 4.6L and that's not the topic at hand it's about GM differentiation and price differences for the lesser engines.

[The Old Guy]

It is interesting to me that there is so much arguing about who built what in GM ,but ford and Chrysler who have had nothing but Corporate engines for years are not even mentioned . GM at one time had 350 CI engines built by Chev,Buick ,Pontiac,Olds and Cadillac .The powers that be finally realized what a waste that was , and they have been on everyones s**t list ever since. I watched GM close engine plants to streamline their product line , and kill some great engines, but in todays world you are either competitive or DEAD !!

[Guest]

Actually Chuck, since we're correcting folks, it's Rover 4.0 AND a 4.6L.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~lloyd/tildeLand-Rover/Engines/#V8" TARGET=_blank>http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~lloyd/tildeLand-Rover/Engines/#V8</A> <P>Greg<BR>

[Guest]

Ah, yes it says revised 4.0 thus a Buick based Rover designed engine, not Buick designed.

[Guest]

Ah well. Six of one, half dozen of the other. Fact is, the Rover V8 is STILL a Buick designed engine. Rover made a lot of updates but most everything from the original Buick 215 still fits it. Oh, just for some fun, check out:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.lanocharacing.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.lanocharacing.com/</A> <P>Enjoy!<P>Greg

[Guest]

It's like I always say...."They are ALL GM engines, it doen't matter if it is a Chevy or a Buick, it's still GM" Why can't we all just get a long! <P> Tongue firmly in cheek. <P>Ahhhhh, that feels better. <P>------------------<BR>buickfam@aol.com<BR>Life long Buick Fan.<BR>1965 Skylark H/T<BR>1965 Gran Sport Convertible<BR>1948 Chevy Pickup with 401 Buick.<BR>"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"